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Thread: Shelly Kerr

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Is society now got to the point where we’re accusing 10 year old kids of misogyny?

    I’d guess they don’t think she’s very good, and kids do that...they don’t pass to the other kids who aren’t any good.
    They only know what they’ve been taught.

    It’s not about ability IMO - there are some good girls but the boys dismiss them. I’ve heard it before they’ve even played them - “it’s only a girls team” or “they’ve got girls in their team”.


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    Aw c’mon, boys not wanting to play with girls? Who’d have thought it!!

    Primary school playgrounds are full of boys playing with boys and girls playing with girls. It’s what children do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Aw c’mon, boys not wanting to play with girls? Who’d have thought it!!

    Primary school playgrounds are full of boys playing with boys and girls playing with girls. It’s what children do.
    Yeah you could dismiss it as that. Although they’re not in a playground. And they’re playing a team game but only participating with some of the team.

    Maybe the girls are more switched on and understand how a team works better.

    Luckily it’s not all the boys (wonder why they’re different?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs View Post
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    They only know what they’ve been taught.

    It’s not about ability IMO - there are some good girls but the boys dismiss them. I’ve heard it before they’ve even played them - “it’s only a girls team” or “they’ve got girls in their team”.
    When i mentioned the obstacles that a woman has to overcome to get to the level that someone like Shelley Kerr has, this is the sort of thing that’s just the starting point for them.
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    Did this thread really get so heated just because the person being criticised is female?


    Personally I wouldn't have started a thread specifically about her, because she's only one of quite a few pundits that are (IMO) very poor and have trouble talking in front of the camera, but surely her gender doesn't make her immune to criticism?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_M View Post
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    Did this thread really get so heated just because the person being criticised is female?


    Personally I wouldn't have started a thread specifically about her, because she's only one of quite a few pundits that are (IMO) very poor and have trouble talking in front of the camera, but surely her gender doesn't make her immune to criticism?

    I don’t think anyone (i could be wrong) has said she’s immune from criticism, to be fair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I don’t think anyone (i could be wrong) has said she’s immune from criticism, to be fair.
    And interestingly I don’t think anyone has said she’s a good pundit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I don’t think anyone (i could be wrong) has said she’s immune from criticism, to be fair.

    Not directly, but any perceived criticism has definitely had responses calling out alleged misogyny.

    I don't want to quote them here, as I've no desire to attack posters directly, but they are there if you a wee read through the thread.

    Something similar happened with a previous thread where one poster made a cheeky remark about Kerr (at least I think it was her) and was blasted as a misogynist comment, despite the fact that it appeared to me that it was no different to the kind of comments made all the time about male pundits, players, etc (and much less insulting than what people have called Davie Dodds)

  10. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs View Post
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    Yeah you could dismiss it as that. Although they’re not in a playground. And they’re playing a team game but only participating with some of the team.

    Maybe the girls are more switched on and understand how a team works better.

    Luckily it’s not all the boys (wonder why they’re different?)
    It's learned behaviour. Kids soak everything up like a sponge. If they see their Dad or cousin posting 'no one cares' every time ladies football is mentioned on Facebook or Twitter they think that's an acceptable attitude. If they hear the male influences in their life ranting about female pundits every time they are seen on TV they will learn to parrot that. Kids learn sexism, sectarianism racism etc from outside sources.

    I do think it is an attitude that will die out sooner rather than later. Thinking bakc to my own school days I could count on one had how many girls played football. There was just no real opportunity for them to do so, certainly not comparable to what was on offer for us boys. Now I see loads of girls kicking about near me in their tracksuits. Castlevale, Musselburgh Windsor and Spartans seem the teams of choice near where I live. Not only can these girls now play football competitively they also have female role models getting exposure on TV, radio and social media.

    There is literally nothing about increased exposure for women's football that is not to like. If that means we get a crap female pundit on Sportscene rather than a crap male pundit every week then so be it. The benefits in the short, medium and long term outweigh any perceived 'inconvenience'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_M View Post
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    Not directly, but any perceived criticism has definitely had responses calling out alleged misogyny.

    I don't want to quote them here, as I've no desire to attack posters directly, but they are there if you a wee read through the thread.

    Something similar happened with a previous thread where one poster made a cheeky remark about Kerr (at least I think it was her) and was blasted as a misogynist comment, despite the fact that it appeared to me that it was no different to the kind of comments made all the time about male pundits, players, etc (and much less insulting than what people have called Davie Dodds)
    There has been a lot of explanation on various threads about why making a comment about a woman isn’t the same as making a comment about a man, to be fair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    There has been a lot of explanation on various threads about why making a comment about a woman isn’t the same as making a comment about a man, to be fair.

    I don't make those kind of comments myself, but it did suggest there's a completely different standard for men and women. Though I do get that women have a lot of ridiculous, over the top criticism on Social Media, though, and there's definitely some real dinosaurs out there.


    As an aside: Sorry to hear about the wee girl being treated that way in football training. I think it's important to let the kids know (though with as much tact as possible) that it's not acceptable.

    I used to teach both boys and girls at primary school level and it was something you had to keep an eye out for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_M View Post
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    I don't make those kind of comments myself, but it did suggest there's a completely different standard for men and women. Though I do get that women have a lot of ridiculous, over the top criticism on Social Media, though, and there's definitely some real dinosaurs out there.


    As an aside: Sorry to hear about the wee girl being treated that way in football training. I think it's important to let the kids know (though with as much tact as possible) that it's not acceptable.

    I used to teach both boys and girls at primary school level and it was something you had to keep an eye out for.
    Good on you for addressing it
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  14. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    Good on you for addressing it

    Thanks Matty. But to be fair to the wee boys that used to go, they were very good when you just explained to them that we wanted everybody to learn and enjoy themselves and that they could actually help the other players by getting them involved.

    It's amazing how much they took that on board and wanted to help out... though they could still be a trouble making bunch of wee buggers when they wanted

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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    There has been a lot of explanation on various threads about why making a comment about a woman isn’t the same as making a comment about a man, to be fair.
    There have been explanations but it doesn’t mean they’ve been right.

    I think there’s a bit of bringing together a few things that aren’t really that linked in this one.

    Yes women probably do get a lot of comment from men of a sexualised nature in particular - a lot of that direct on social media. That needs to be stopped.

    Is there a history of women being judged by their looks? Possibly in professions where it has traditionally mattered, yes. A lot of those roles are actually based on looks to some extent and so that is a bit of a double edged sword.

    Do women feel particular pressure to look a certain way? Yes but it is widely recognised that this pressure largely comes from other women and publications / TV that women themselves are the main producers and supporters of.

    Taking the example of a female pundit who attracts a reasonably lame comment on a football fans forum based on her looks - is this based squarely in misogyny and does it reflect some of the things that have potentially held women back? I think the answer to that is not really. I don’t think it is an example where treating a woman differently because she is a woman is really that well justified.

    If anything I think it would show that she is being treated the same way as anyone else in football and it should be taken in that same spirit. No one is equating her value to her looks and no one is suggesting her looks should hold her back from doing her job. Yes, equality does not always mean treating everyone the same. Sometimes it does though.

    I wouldn’t make those comments myself, nor would I feel the need to make them about the likes of Morelos. I probably did make them about Davie Dodds back in the day. If though that stuff is getting banded about to everyone I’m not sure it is really that justifiable to keep picking up the ones that happen to involve a woman.

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    Andy I'm not even justifying that post with quoting it. I have rarely seen so much utter drivel in my life as there is in that one post. I'm actually really angry, as a woman, that you were supposedly ever involved in a paper on diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    There have been explanations but it doesn’t mean they’ve been right.

    I think there’s a bit of bringing together a few things that aren’t really that linked in this one.

    Yes women probably do get a lot of comment from men of a sexualised nature in particular - a lot of that direct on social media. That needs to be stopped.

    Is there a history of women being judged by their looks? Possibly in professions where it has traditionally mattered, yes. A lot of those roles are actually based on looks to some extent and so that is a bit of a double edged sword.

    Do women feel particular pressure to look a certain way? Yes but it is widely recognised that this pressure largely comes from other women and publications / TV that women themselves are the main producers and supporters of.

    Taking the example of a female pundit who attracts a reasonably lame comment on a football fans forum based on her looks - is this based squarely in misogyny and does it reflect some of the things that have potentially held women back? I think the answer to that is not really. I don’t think it is an example where treating a woman differently because she is a woman is really that well justified.

    If anything I think it would show that she is being treated the same way as anyone else in football and it should be taken in that same spirit. No one is equating her value to her looks and no one is suggesting her looks should hold her back from doing her job. Yes, equality does not always mean treating everyone the same. Sometimes it does though.

    I wouldn’t make those comments myself, nor would I feel the need to make them about the likes of Morelos. I probably did make them about Davie Dodds back in the day. If though that stuff is getting banded about to everyone I’m not sure it is really that justifiable to keep picking up the ones that happen to involve a woman.
    This really is just a long winded way of saying ‘there isn’t really much of a problem here’. If you really were involved in drawing up some sort of policy on ways of working in relation to equality by your employer, it strikes me that maybe the people involved in commissioning it didn’t really want any real changes to be made? In your third and fourth paragraph, you’re mansplaining to women what the female experience is, you’ve really crossed the line into David Brent territory.
    Last edited by hibsbollah; 08-04-2021 at 05:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.S View Post
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    Andy I'm not even justifying that post with quoting it. I have rarely seen so much utter drivel in my life as there is in that one post. I'm actually really angry, as a woman, that you were supposedly ever involved in a paper on diversity.
    My preference is to deal with the real issues and to actually do something on that front in real life rather than talk about it.

    That also means having perspective on things that aren't the real issues.

    I'm sorry if you found my post offensive but I don't believe in giving anyone any type of abuse really and certainly not directly. I won't apologise though for thinking that if light hearted name calling is happening to pretty much everyone in football that women should somehow be separated out of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    There have been explanations but it doesn’t mean they’ve been right.

    I think there’s a bit of bringing together a few things that aren’t really that linked in this one.

    Yes women probably do get a lot of comment from men of a sexualised nature in particular - a lot of that direct on social media. That needs to be stopped.

    Is there a history of women being judged by their looks? Possibly in professions where it has traditionally mattered, yes. A lot of those roles are actually based on looks to some extent and so that is a bit of a double edged sword.

    Do women feel particular pressure to look a certain way? Yes but it is widely recognised that this pressure largely comes from other women and publications / TV that women themselves are the main producers and supporters of.

    Taking the example of a female pundit who attracts a reasonably lame comment on a football fans forum based on her looks - is this based squarely in misogyny and does it reflect some of the things that have potentially held women back? I think the answer to that is not really. I don’t think it is an example where treating a woman differently because she is a woman is really that well justified.

    If anything I think it would show that she is being treated the same way as anyone else in football and it should be taken in that same spirit. No one is equating her value to her looks and no one is suggesting her looks should hold her back from doing her job. Yes, equality does not always mean treating everyone the same. Sometimes it does though.

    I wouldn’t make those comments myself, nor would I feel the need to make them about the likes of Morelos. I probably did make them about Davie Dodds back in the day. If though that stuff is getting banded about to everyone I’m not sure it is really that justifiable to keep picking up the ones that happen to involve a woman.
    Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Since90+2 View Post
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    Good post.
    It’s a ****ing appalling post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    This really is just a long winded way of saying ‘there isn’t really much of a problem here’. If you really were involved in drawing up some sort of policy on ways of working in relation to equality by your employer, it strikes me that maybe the people involved in commissioning it didn’t really want any real changes to be made?
    I'm saying there are real problems, and yes I'm actually doing something to resolve those. This isn't one of them though, in my opinion.

    It is quite possible to be able to understand the urgent need for diversity within business and the actions that we need to take to get there and still think that a woman being included in some light hearted name calling that men also get subjected to is not something that we need to be overly concerned about.

    They are at hugely opposite ends of the issues at play here. It is quite evident from this thread though that separating out those sensibly is not going to happen here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    I'm saying there are real problems, and yes I'm actually doing something to resolve those. This isn't one of them though, in my opinion.

    It is quite possible to be able to understand the urgent need for diversity within business and the actions that we need to take to get there and still think that a woman being included in some light hearted name calling that men also get subjected to is not something that we need to be overly concerned about.

    They are at hugely opposite ends of the issues at play here. It is quite evident from this thread though that separating out those sensibly is not going to happen here!
    I would love to see you in a conference room, as a man, explaining to a group of women that certain things are 'not something that WE need to be overly concerned about'
    I think some self awareness is called for here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    I would love to see you in a conference room, as a man, explaining to a group of women that certain things are 'not something that WE need to be overly concerned about'
    I think some self awareness is called for here.
    Thankfully the fact that no one should ever say anything bad about a woman hasn't been discussed yet so I think I'll be fine.

    Just to be very clear - which I think I've been. I wouldn't condone anyone saying bad about anyone but if you think this is in any way material to the actual issues which have to be dealt with then you perhaps need a bit more awareness.

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    The widely recognised that its other women bit and questions on being judged on their looks is fluff made up in your head. Just because you type it doesnt make it factual. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you've said. I'm bowing out because I am enraged that we are still hearing this drivel.

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    Wow, just when you thought this thread couldn't go any more downhill...



  26. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by J.S View Post
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    The widely recognised that its other women bit and questions on being judged on their looks is fluff made up in your head. Just because you type it doesnt make it factual. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you've said. I'm bowing out because I am enraged that we are still hearing this drivel.
    I guess if nothing else good came from this, you got to see a real example of the term “mansplaining” being used, J.S. 🤷🏻

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeeRussell View Post
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    I guess if nothing else good came from this, you got to see a real example of the term “mansplaining” being used, J.S. 🤷🏻

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeeRussell View Post
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    I guess if nothing else good came from this, you got to see a real example of the term “mansplaining” being used, J.S. 🤷🏻

    I'm sure she'll very much appreciate it as well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    Just to be very clear - which I think I've been. I wouldn't condone anyone saying bad about anyone but if you think this is in any way material to the actual issues which have to be dealt with then you perhaps need a bit more awareness.
    This sentence is completely meaningless. Be specific.

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    I think the BBC has been reading this thread. There's no other reason for their choice of pundits this weekend.
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  31. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyrie View Post
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    I think the BBC has been reading this thread. There's no other reason for their choice of pundits this weekend.
    Richard and Marv are ok. I’ve no interest in the other pundits tbh.

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