Shelly Kerr

[hibsbollah]

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You might not have been following this properly then because I’ve been talking squarely about anyone who is being employed as a pundit in that ex player space not generally as journalists or commentators.

That’s a very odd, artificial distinction, which I think you’re using as a device to deflect.

Me mentioning Alan O’Brien isn’t trolling. It just reflects the fact that you tend to get things wrong a lot of the time.

[hibsbollah]

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To be fair bollah, I must admit, I thought he had potential to be a good player I remember him missing two glorious chances v Gretna and his confidence levels plummeting thereafter.............he had a hard act to follow in Ivan and the fans were expectant.......if ever there was a cliched 'confidence player' it was AOB.

Anyway, get more of Rose Reilly on the telly...........she was excellent on Off The Ball and a pioneer in the women's game

The Geordies were mad for him. A friend of mine from Durham was an obsessive Mags fan,used to attend the reserve fixtures and when I asked him he said we’d got ourselves a bargain when he signed.

Then he rocked up at ER in a flash Range Rover with AOB plates and proceeded to be a cautionary tale.

[Pretty Boy]

How many prominent food critics have cooked at Michelin star or AA rosette level? Did Barry Norman ever direct an Oscar winning film? The idea someone has to have performed at a certain level to add insight to or critique something seems flawed.

Kerr is a crap pundit because she's a crap pundit. She talks in clichés and describes exactly what everyone had already seen for themselves. I'm not sure the level she has player or coached at had much to do with it. Willie Miller has won a European trophy and he does the same. Michael Owen played for some of the biggest clubs in the world and has nearly 100 England caps and adds almost nothing of note when employed as a pundit or Co commentator. I'd rather listen to someone like Alex Scott than either of those 2.

[truehibernian]

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The Geordies were mad for him. A friend of mine from Durham was an obsessive Mags fan,used to attend the reserve fixtures and when I asked him he said we’d got ourselves a bargain when he signed.

Then he rocked up at ER in a flash Range Rover with AOB plates and proceeded to be a cautionary tale.

Whilst the legend that is Amadou drove up in a S Reg Corsa (only teasing)

[hibsbollah]

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Whilst the legend that is Amadou drove up in a S Reg Corsa (only teasing)

Zemmama drove a crappy wee second hand VW golf. It takes a sense of style for a footballer to drive a rubbish car

[truehibernian]

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Zemmama drove a crappy wee second hand VW golf. It takes a sense of style for a footballer to drive a rubbish car

Cannae top trump Wee Russell's VW Beetle with the wee flower on the dash just a shame he couldn't work oot his sat nav

[superfurryhibby]

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If you don’t think that playing at a World Cup in front of tens of thousands in the stadium and millions on TV is a higher level than some school kids playing 11s at Wardie or Saughton the I’m afraid we’ll have to disagree.

The standard is a completely different argument.

I did make the distinction and specifically referred to standard of play.

A higher level, mmmmmm, maybe not. A higher profile setting, of course. I measure standard of play by skill factor.

Personally, I find women’s football pretty dull. It’s slow, lacking in technique, with lots of basic errors. Fine by me if others enjoy that though.

Women’s tennis, no problems I enjoy it. I know they play at a level I could never have dreamed of, even although I was not bad at the game.

I’m fine with women pundits, but let’s not pretend that Kerr is there for her insight or ability to articulate. It’s all about inclusivity and I think that’s ok too.

[hibsbollah]

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Cannae top trump Wee Russell's VW Beetle with the wee flower on the dash just a shame he couldn't work oot his sat nav

That sounds like a bit of a lassies car

I’m oota here.

[truehibernian]

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That sounds like a bit of a lassies car

I’m oota here.

True story....I told him that after that 'incident' whilst sharing a cigarette with Dwight Yorke one of those 'had to be there' moments in life

[Sir David Gray]

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That's the nub of the issue right there.

Shelley Kerr would have, I imagine, had all sorts to overcome to get to the position where she coached Scotland at a World Cup - from overcoming the huge male-dominance in the sport, to having to do more than a male counterpart to prove her worth and ability because of all the in-built prejudices that people have about women in football etc

Then there is the requirement to look good, which is important, apparently. We know this because if it wasn't important, Matt Le Tissier etc would have been nowhere near the TV.

Yes people make comments about male presenters and pundits' appearance, but if you take the scale and frequency of that and compare it to that of a female pundit or presenter, you'll see exactly why people need to make more of an effort to be sensitive to it and choose not to make that comment.

Female pundits deserve a platform, there have been, for many, many years, no female role-models for any aspiring female pundits or presenters, we need some on the TV to change that, and if that means accepting that they might not be Gary Neville to start off with, then it's a price worth paying because when we persevere with it and create an environment where female pundits are the norm as much as male pundits were, then better ones come through (as happened with male pundits many moons ago).

If there was an aspiring female pundit reading this thread, I can only imagine how discouraging it would be. From people telling them that they can't understand the men's game to others saying they should only be pundits on women's football, and others saying that they turn off immediately if there's a female pundit on a show.

Those are the ingrained attitudes that they are up against.

As someone who is part of a minority group myself I want to be given a job because I'm the best person for it.

I think organisations like the BBC in particular should be employing the very best presenters and pundits around regardless of gender, race, sexuality etc.

I'm quite sure that there's many females out there who could do a better job than Derek Ferguson, Billy Dodds and Allan Preston and on that basis they should be in ahead of them regardless of how much experience they have of playing professional men's football (like I said before that is irrelevant to me) but I disagree that they should be picked as some tick box exercise.

[Crunchie]

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As someone who is part of a minority group myself I want to be given a job because I'm the best person for it.

I think organisations like the BBC in particular should be employing the very best presenters and pundits around regardless of gender, race, sexuality etc.

I'm quite sure that there's many females out there who could do a better job than Derek Ferguson, Billy Dodds and Allan Preston and on that basis they should be in ahead of them regardless of how much experience they have of playing professional men's football (like I said before that is irrelevant to me) but I disagree that they should be picked as some tick box exercise.

And that I think would be the opinion of the vast majority

[mcohibs]

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As someone who is part of a minority group myself I want to be given a job because I'm the best person for it.

I think organisations like the BBC in particular should be employing the very best presenters and pundits around regardless of gender, race, sexuality etc.

I'm quite sure that there's many females out there who could do a better job than Derek Ferguson, Billy Dodds and Allan Preston and on that basis they should be in ahead of them regardless of how much experience they have of playing professional men's football (like I said before that is irrelevant to me) but I disagree that they should be picked as some tick box exercise.

Nowt wrong with Derek Ferguson btw. Very knowledgeable pundit

[Danderhall Hibs]

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How many prominent food critics have cooked at Michelin star or AA rosette level? Did Barry Norman ever direct an Oscar winning film? The idea someone has to have performed at a certain level to add insight to or critique something seems flawed.

Kerr is a crap pundit because she's a crap pundit. She talks in clichés and describes exactly what everyone had already seen for themselves. I'm not sure the level she has player or coached at had much to do with it. Willie Miller has won a European trophy and he does the same. Michael Owen played for some of the biggest clubs in the world and has nearly 100 England caps and adds almost nothing of note when employed as a pundit or Co commentator. I'd rather listen to someone like Alex Scott than either of those 2.

Absolutely - to all of that.

And Miller won all those trophies back in the old days when today’s rules didn’t apply, the game was played in mud and you were allowed to break the strikers legs.

[green leaves]

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If someone says Kris Boyd is a **** pundit and an absolute mess, that’s fine.

Substitute Kris Boyd for Shelley Kerr, and it becomes a problem about sexism?

Then you're part of the problem.
It's not hard to understand

[Brightside]

This thread is very depressing.

[WhileTheChief..]

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As someone who is part of a minority group myself I want to be given a job because I'm the best person for it..

Excellent, just as it should be.

I apply the same in all of these areas. I simply don’t pay attention to gender, sexuality or race in any of these issues - I treat everyone exactly the same.

To me, that is equality.

Where I disagree with so many on this board, is where the whole identity politics comes into it.

By saying more women should do this, or more ethnic minorities are needed here or there, that adds to the problem. You’re creating a division right there.

“You’re LGBT therfore......”
”you’re black so.....”

That’s total BS. It might be with the best of intentions but by doing so you’re immediately treating them differently, the very opposite of what equality is.

So, yeah, treat everyone the same and we’ll be well on the road to actual equality.

[vuefrom1875]

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Nowt wrong with Derek Ferguson btw. Very knowledgeable pundit

Except he struggles to string a sentence together 🤔

[mcohibs]

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Except he struggles to string a sentence together 🤔

Does he? Not really the impression I've got from listening to him tbh

[easty]

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Then you're part of the problem.
It's not hard to understand

Yawn.

[Eyrie]

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The onus isn’t on me to prove why they’re not the same. That’s not how it works. You made a stupid comparison between being a pundit and being Alex Ferguson. I’m saying it doesn’t work. I stand by that.

It's up to you to prove why what you are saying is a valid observation.

It's up to others to judge the validity of that observation given your refusal to do so.

I'll leave you to keep digging.

[easty]

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It's up to you to prove why what you are saying is a valid observation.

It's up to others to judge the validity of that observation given your refusal to do so.

I'll leave you to keep digging.

You’ve not half taken the hump at being told your comparison was ****!

Digging? Hardly. I don’t care.

[Andy74]

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This thread is very depressing.

I think only because it has gone the same way as many threads now in that the assumption is that people are being sexist / racist, whatever.

Actually reading what people are saying shows that isn’t the case.

If anyone was to say women just don’t belong in football or women aren’t capable of understanding football then that would be sexist.

The worst thing that has been said here is that women’s football is not the same standard as men’s football. That’s a matter of taste and opinion, not an insult based on sex.

I don’t see that anyone has said in this specific discussion that women shouldn’t be pundits because they are women or because they don’t understand football. People are saying that their preference is to have pundits that have played at the sort of level they are watching. That goes for men and women.

We’ve had acceptance here from some of the strongest arguers for the women’s game that it isn’t yet at the same level or developed to the point where someone from the women’s game would, for example, be employed by a men’s football team as a coach.

Getting upset or depressed about people’s preference for pundits to be at the same level and experience as the playing and coaching staff seems a bit misplaced. Equating it too sexism is very much missing the point of the discussion.

[Vault Boy]

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I think only because it has gone the same way as many threads now in that the assumption is that people are being sexist / racist, whatever.

Actually reading what people are saying shows that isn’t the case.

If anyone was to say women just don’t belong in football or women aren’t capable of understanding football then that would be sexist.

The worst thing that has been said here is that women’s football is not the same standard as men’s football. That’s a matter of taste and opinion, not an insult based on sex.

I don’t see that anyone has said in this specific discussion that women shouldn’t be pundits because they are women or because they don’t understand football. People are saying that their preference is to have pundits that have played at the sort of level they are watching. That goes for men and women.

We’ve had acceptance here from some of the strongest arguers for the women’s game that it isn’t yet at the same level or developed to the point where someone from the women’s game would, for example, be employed by a men’s football team as a coach.

Getting upset or depressed about people’s preference for pundits to be at the same level and experience as the playing and coaching staff seems a bit misplaced. Equating it too sexism is very much missing the point of the discussion.

Apart from comments that have actually had to be deleted due to sexist content, people referring to female pundits as 'adorable', and the compulsion of some to continue to belittle the women's game by making pointless comparisons to amateur men's football and the like.

I agree that there have been a lot of rather depressing posts on this thread. I'm somewhat surprised you continue to repeat your argument because a few pages ago you said you don't really care.

[Baader]

The usual dinosaurs and attention seekers on here it seems. "Personal preference" always a convenient get out clause before the "I don't care" card gets produced. 😔

Interesting that, on another recent thread, Bob Crampsey is lauded as one of the greatest football pundits we've had (which I would agree with.) He didn't play professional football so according to some on here he shouldn't have had a career in sports broadcasting 🤣

[Since90+2]

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As someone who is part of a minority group myself I want to be given a job because I'm the best person for it.

I think organisations like the BBC in particular should be employing the very best presenters and pundits around regardless of gender, race, sexuality etc.

I'm quite sure that there's many females out there who could do a better job than Derek Ferguson, Billy Dodds and Allan Preston and on that basis they should be in ahead of them regardless of how much experience they have of playing professional men's football (like I said before that is irrelevant to me) but I disagree that they should be picked as some tick box exercise.

The best post on this entire thread IMO.

Well put SDG.

[happiehibbie]

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No YOU are choosing to narrowing the terms of debate, because you know that you’re contradicting yourself. If you’re Hugh McIlvaney or Patrick Barclay you’re taken seriously despite having never played at the level they are discussing. You’ve already said you question the worth of womens footballers views because they have never played at the level they are discussing. That’s a clear contradiction.

Plus, i still can’t get over the fact that you think you’re qualified to pass judgement on anyone’s view on football. You were trying to persuade us all for months that Alan O’Brien was a quality player

t



Alan O’Brien was a quality player


WAY TO FAR

[happiehibbie]

This Thread has had some hits
I think having an opinion on any subject the other person does not agree with has transferred into being a Racist,Sexist,bigot chauvinist,hypocrite, all round bad person.

Lets get talking about Hibs :)

[happiehibbie]

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excellent, just as it should be.

I apply the same in all of these areas. I simply don’t pay attention to gender, sexuality or race in any of these issues - i treat everyone exactly the same.

To me, that is equality.

Where i disagree with so many on this board, is where the whole identity politics comes into it.

By saying more women should do this, or more ethnic minorities are needed here or there, that adds to the problem. You’re creating a division right there.

“you’re lgbt therfore......”
”you’re black so.....”

that’s total bs. It might be with the best of intentions but by doing so you’re immediately treating them differently, the very opposite of what equality is.

So, yeah, treat everyone the same and we’ll be well on the road to actual equality.

this

[hibbysam]

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Apart from comments that have actually had to be deleted due to sexist content, people referring to female pundits as 'adorable', and the compulsion of some to continue to belittle the women's game by making pointless comparisons to amateur men's football and the like.

I agree that there have been a lot of rather depressing posts on this thread. I'm somewhat surprised you continue to repeat your argument because a few pages ago you said you don't really care.

I made the comparison to amateur men’s football, because It was said that football is football, regardless of level (women’s or mens) it’s the same game. Therefore someone playing amateur football is also ‘qualified’ to become a top level pundit. I also believe that amateur men’s football and women’s football is, at worst. on a par in this country. That’s an opinion and I don’t think it’s controversial. Kerr got the biggest job in Scottish women’s football based on a rather average time in the Lowland league.

Therefore if you stuck me on the tele to talk about the Premiership, and I was really ***** at it, you’d be asking why I was there. I don’t think many would accept ‘because he’s played at such and such a level’.

Hardly depressing. What’s depressing is the same posters shooting anyone down that has an opinion on anything and turns it controversial. Is Shelley Kerr a ***** pundit? Aye she is.

I’d have a full panel of women if they added to the experience and we’re better than their male counterparts. Right now I’d struggle to pick a decent 3 pundits between men or women. It’s not prejudiced against women, but it’s right to question why someone is there when they are brutal at the job.

[Brizo]

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How many prominent food critics have cooked at Michelin star or AA rosette level? Did Barry Norman ever direct an Oscar winning film? The idea someone has to have performed at a certain level to add insight to or critique something seems flawed.

Kerr is a crap pundit because she's a crap pundit. She talks in clichés and describes exactly what everyone had already seen for themselves. I'm not sure the level she has player or coached at had much to do with it. Willie Miller has won a European trophy and he does the same. Michael Owen played for some of the biggest clubs in the world and has nearly 100 England caps and adds almost nothing of note when employed as a pundit or Co commentator. I'd rather listen to someone like Alex Scott than either of those 2.

Add to that TV critics, music critics, book critics etc. Sport and football, in particular, is the only part of the entertainment industry where the mentality exists that you have to have performed at a certain level to have a valid opinion. It's quite bizarre and I think it says a lot about the insular bubble a lot of professional football people inhabit.

Kerr is crap but no worse than the vast majority of ex-pros Doddsy, Boydy, Preston etc. Decent ex-pro pundits are few and far between. I used to really enjoy Craig Pattersons' punditry and that's not green-tinted glasses as I thought Murdo was useless. Michael Stewart is good but not as good as he thinks he is and hasn't really got much competition in the stringing a coherent sentence together stakes.