Shelly Kerr

[Sir David Gray]

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Osaka played really well in that tournament and pretty much wiped the floor with most of her opponents. The men’s side has several very strong players right now hence why matches took longer.

Many women want to play 5 sets and get equal pay for it.

I just used that as one example, I'm sure I could find many more examples of a male player spending far more time on court during a 5 set tournament in comparison with how much time another male (sometimes even the same male) or a female player spends on court during a 3 set tourmament.

It's not just because Osaka played well and wiped the floor with each opponent during this particular tournament.

Again it's not a male v female argument, some male players aren't good enough to get into a Grand Slam event and therefore never experience a 5 set match. I'd say the same about them too. It is a different form of the game and there are differences in how a 5 set match is approached.

Anyway I'm probably going to bow out of this now as this has developed into a conversation that I really didn't expect to get into. I am perfectly happy with a female commenting on a male version of a sport. As I said before the only criteria I am interested in is that they are knowledgeable, do their research before appearing on the show and are capable of speaking eloquently.

Gender doesn't come into it for me, there are many male pundits who I would gladly see the back of due to them not meeting the criteria I've outlined above.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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Anyway I'm probably going to bow out of this now as this has developed into a conversation that I really didn't expect to get into. I am perfectly happy with a female commenting on a male version of a sport. As I said before the only criteria I am interested in is that they are knowledgeable, do their research before appearing on the show and are capable of speaking eloquently.

Gender doesn't come into it for me, there are many male pundits who I would gladly see the back of due to them not meeting the criteria I've outlined above.

Absolutely agree SDG.

[James Stephen]

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Comparing a World Cup where she managed Scotland to men’s junior football?!!

She has won the FA Cup and 59 caps for Scotland - more than the average guy who posts on here or plays for some team many people have never heard of.

She managed in the women's world cup, won the woman's FA Cup and won caps for the Scotland women's team. None of those things are the same as doing them in the men's game. There is no equivalence.

This is one of the contradictions that we face with woman's football - people say its the same game, so in that case it ahould be judged on the same terms. In which case its poor quality football.

But no, you cant judge it on the same terms, people cry. So which is it?

Shelley Kerr has played and managed at the equivalent of junior football (if that). To pretend otherwise is just wishful thinking.

There is nothing wrong with that. But to pretend some equivalence with the men's game is stupid and self-defeating for women's fitba.

As a pundit she is neither qualified nor any good. She only has the job because she is a woman. Again if its about representation, thats fine, but lets not insult everyone's intelligence by making up false equivalence.

[GreenCastle]

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I just used that as one example, I'm sure I could find many more examples of a male player spending far more time on court during a 5 set tournament in comparison with how much time another male (sometimes even the same male) or a female player spends on court during a 3 set tourmament.

It's not just because Osaka played well and wiped the floor with each opponent during this particular tournament.

Again it's not a male v female argument, some male players aren't good enough to get into a Grand Slam event and therefore never experience a 5 set match. I'd say the same about them too. It is a different form of the game and there are differences in how a 5 set match is approached.

Anyway I'm probably going to bow out of this now as this has developed into a conversation that I really didn't expect to get into. I am perfectly happy with a female commenting on a male version of a sport. As I said before the only criteria I am interested in is that they are knowledgeable, do their research before appearing on the show and are capable of speaking eloquently.

Gender doesn't come into it for me, there are many male pundits who I would gladly see the back of due to them not meeting the criteria I've outlined above.

Ok - definitely agree with last paragraphs.

Still curious to how players prepare differently excep possibly different conditioning. Though obviously mentally fatigue and mindset etc will come into it the longer the game goes on.

I’m like you all I care about is they are knowledgeable and I agree there are many crap pundits on tv and radio in Scotland - surely we could better :)

[Danderhall Hibs]

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She managed in the women's world cup, won the woman's FA Cup and won caps for the Scotland women's team. None of those things are the same as doing them in the men's game. There is no equivalence.

This is one of the contradictions that we face with woman's football - people say its the same game, so in that case it ahould be judged on the same terms. In which case its poor quality football.

But no, you cant judge it on the same terms, people cry. So which is it?

Shelley Kerr has played and managed at the equivalent of junior football (if that). To pretend otherwise is just wishful thinking.

There is nothing wrong with that. But to pretend some equivalence with the men's game is stupid and self-defeating for women's fitba.

As a pundit she is neither qualified nor any good. She only has the job because she is a woman. Again if its about representation, thats fine, but lets not insult everyone's intelligence by making up false equivalence.

I’m not sure why you’re guessing what “level” the woman’s game is vs the men’s game - it’s the same game played by people with different genetics. An opinion can be formed fairly easily without having even played at all (look at any thread on here as an example). Are you saying Paula Radcliffe can’t make comment on Mo Farah’s London Marathon performance cos she’s never run the men’s race before?

I don’t think Kerr’s a good pundit but think the qualification of “having played the game” is a huge flaw. Allan Preston played now and again - didn’t win anything but is a better bet based on the criteria?

No thanks.

[WhileTheChief..]

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It’s important because women should have the same opportunity as men to work in these roles, it’s important because diversity of opinion and experience is a good thing, generally.

Your two daughters play, do you honestly want to limit their opportunities if they want to get into that line of work?

You don’t have to be a different gender or race to have a different opinion or experience though.

Just read this forum - predominantly white males but a multitude of opinions on every thread.

The current Hibs board is 100% white.

Who should be binned and what experience would an ethnic minority bring to enhance our club?

[James Stephen]

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I’m not sure why you’re guessing what “level” the woman’s game is vs the men’s game - it’s the same game played by people with different genetics. An opinion can be formed fairly easily without having even played at all (look at any thread on here as an example). Are you saying Paula Radcliffe can’t make comment on Mo Farah’s London Marathon performance cos she’s never run the men’s race before?

I don’t think Kerr’s a good pundit but think the qualification of “having played the game” is a huge flaw. Allan Preston played now and again - didn’t win anything but is a better bet based on the criteria?

No thanks.

I agree, as arrigo sacchi said, i didnt realise that be a jockey, i first had to be a horse.

However, the BBC does seem to only pick people who have played at top level pro football as pundits, which often means many men who would be better, are disqualified for not having played at a top level.

That rule seems to have been waived for Kerr, which is exactly my point. By the BBCs own (misguided) policy, she is not qualified.

[GreenCastle]

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She managed in the women's world cup, won the woman's FA Cup and won caps for the Scotland women's team. None of those things are the same as doing them in the men's game. There is no equivalence.

This is one of the contradictions that we face with woman's football - people say its the same game, so in that case it ahould be judged on the same terms. In which case its poor quality football.

But no, you cant judge it on the same terms, people cry. So which is it?

Shelley Kerr has played and managed at the equivalent of junior football (if that). To pretend otherwise is just wishful thinking.

There is nothing wrong with that. But to pretend some equivalence with the men's game is stupid and self-defeating for women's fitba.

As a pundit she is neither qualified nor any good. She only has the job because she is a woman. Again if its about representation, thats fine, but lets not insult everyone's intelligence by making up false equivalence.

You are becoming a little mixed up.

"people say it's the same game, so in that case it should be judged on the same terms. In which case its poor quality football."

It IS the same game - everyone has agreed it's the same rules and same objective = to score more goals than the other team.

Explain why it isn't the same game? Using examples like the goalkeepers are small and rubbish doesn't make sense. There are plenty small and rubbish mens goalkeepers and tall mens goalkeepers making a living. Hibs have seen plenty of them over the years!!

Why should it be judged on same terms? Poor quality football ? That's a pretty wide generalisation. I've seen hundreds of crap Hibs mens games - I've even watched Barcelona mens team and Brazil mens team play poor football. There has been numerous on threads on here recently saying fans aren't enjoying football on TV with no crowds compared to being in the stadium. Even then I've come away from ER having watched Hibs play crap.

Shelly has more qualifications than probably most on here - a degree and UEFA Pro license. She has also had experiences of coaching at an International tournament - again wonder how many posters have that on their CV?

I do agree I don't think she's a very good pundit though as she just speaks in cliches but to shoot her down due to looks (as some has posted) or claiming she's just a woman given a job is nonsense.

[Greenbeard]

zzzzzzzzzzzzz......

[happiehibbie]

I tread with care !

Do we think a all women's team could be a success lets say the Lowland League?, Shelly was the manager of the UNI for a while. Lots of comments about her fitting the criteria of the SFA. Do i like her as a pundit no Julie Fleeting No however Amy Irons she speaks well and seems knowledgeable.

I could list many sports I don't like and Womens football is one of them. I don't wish any of them harm or miss fortune.

I do not believe in giving people a job just to meet with current gender gaps I feel this is happening to often in all walks of life.

Some valid points have been made on this subject but we're all scared incase we upset someone with something we say.

let me throw Andy Walker into the mix OH MY GOD :)

We are all human beings with different views some we agree with some we don't. live and let live

[WeeRussell]

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So John McEnroe, for example, shouldn't be a pundit on a women's tennis match?

You cannot be serious?

[easty]

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I tread with care !

Do we think a all women's team could be a success lets say the Lowland League?, Shelly was the manager of the UNI for a while. Lots of comments about her fitting the criteria of the SFA. Do i like her as a pundit no Julie Fleeting No however Amy Irons she speaks well and seems knowledgeable.

I could list many sports I don't like and Womens football is one of them. I don't wish any of them harm or miss fortune.

I do not believe in giving people a job just to meet with current gender gaps I feel this is happening to often in all walks of life.

Some valid points have been made on this subject but we're all scared incase we upset someone with something we say.

let me throw Andy Walker into the mix OH MY GOD :)

We are all human beings with different views some we agree with some we don't. live and let live

Any women’s team would lose every game every week in the lowland league.

That doesn’t mean that women don’t “know” football though.

[Andy74]

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Any women’s team would lose every game every week in the lowland league.

That doesn’t mean that women don’t “know” football though.

Knowing football isn’t really the issue - we all ‘know’ football.

Being a pundit (the ex player type) is a specific role that should be there to provide the direct experience and thoughts of those that have done it. The commentators and others are there to describe what’s going on.

We aren’t plucking non league players or former youth level only players out and putting them up as experts.

Do any other similar type sports do this? Do the NFL have female players as expert pundits (not presenters or reporters) or rugby?

In all sorts of areas representation and allowing pathways, even positively promoting, is important. I’m not sure being an expert ex pro football pundit in the men’s game is one of those areas that needed to be solved for.

[marinello59]

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Knowing football isn’t really the issue - we all ‘know’ football.

Being a pundit (the ex player type) is a specific role that should be there to provide the direct experience and thoughts of those that have done it. The commentators and others are there to describe what’s going on.

We aren’t plucking non league players or former youth level only players out and putting them up as experts.

Do any other similar type sports do this? Do the NFL have female players as expert pundits (not presenters or reporters) or rugby?

In all sorts of areas representation and allowing pathways, even positively promoting, is important. I’m not sure being an expert ex pro football pundit in the men’s game is one of those areas that needed to be solved for.

Providing your own definition of what a pundit should provide really doesn’t begin to make your ingrained prejudice acceptable in any way. Poor stuff from you over a long series of posts.

[Brightside]

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Knowing football isn’t really the issue - we all ‘know’ football.

Being a pundit (the ex player type) is a specific role that should be there to provide the direct experience and thoughts of those that have done it. The commentators and others are there to describe what’s going on.

We aren’t plucking non league players or former youth level only players out and putting them up as experts.

Do any other similar type sports do this? Do the NFL have female players as expert pundits (not presenters or reporters) or rugby?

In all sorts of areas representation and allowing pathways, even positively promoting, is important. I’m not sure being an expert ex pro football pundit in the men’s game is one of those areas that needed to be solved for.

A female coaching an NBA team for example....

[GreenCastle]

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Any women’s team would lose every game every week in the lowland league.

That doesn’t mean that women don’t “know” football though.

Majority of men’s Sunday league team would lose every game, every week against a decent women’s team.

That doesn’t mean that men don’t “know” football though.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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Do any other similar type sports do this? Do the NFL have female players as expert pundits (not presenters or reporters) or rugby?

ITV have had female pundits for the 6 Nations.

[James Stephen]

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You are becoming a little mixed up.

"people say it's the same game, so in that case it should be judged on the same terms. In which case its poor quality football."

It IS the same game - everyone has agreed it's the same rules and same objective = to score more goals than the other team.

Explain why it isn't the same game? Using examples like the goalkeepers are small and rubbish doesn't make sense. There are plenty small and rubbish mens goalkeepers and tall mens goalkeepers making a living. Hibs have seen plenty of them over the years!!

Why should it be judged on same terms? Poor quality football ? That's a pretty wide generalisation. I've seen hundreds of crap Hibs mens games - I've even watched Barcelona mens team and Brazil mens team play poor football. There has been numerous on threads on here recently saying fans aren't enjoying football on TV with no crowds compared to being in the stadium. Even then I've come away from ER having watched Hibs play crap.

Shelly has more qualifications than probably most on here - a degree and UEFA Pro license. She has also had experiences of coaching at an International tournament - again wonder how many posters have that on their CV?

I do agree I don't think she's a very good pundit though as she just speaks in cliches but to shoot her down due to looks (as some has posted) or claiming she's just a woman given a job is nonsense.

I agree its the same game, but they are absolutely a million miles away in level - thats the point.

I dont doubt her qualifications, or that she would have more insight than me (im not a pundit either) but by the definition of the role as we know it, she is not qualified in any way.

Fwiw, i think this sense of some moral obligation to like womens football because you like mens football is what puts a lot of men off. Its being artificially inflated beyond any reasonable sense of its popularity, when it is just poor quality football.

I think its great that the women's game is growing, i think its great that participation is growing. Hopefully one day there will be big crowds attending regularly, with a high % of women, and women can even make a living out of it. But at the moment, i dont want to watch it, because its not very good and lacks many of the key ingredients that i love about football. Aggression, needle, speed, decades of rivalry and narrative and grudge, crowds, atmosphere, hatred, tribalism.

Some of those things might come in time of course, but its the emperor's new clothes at the moment. Its just not very good football. Sure, lots of mens football is not very good too, and i probably dont watch that either.

Shelley Kerr is filling a quota. I wouldnt really mind if she was any good, but she is terrible, which makes it a terrible decision.

[easty]

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Majority of men’s Sunday league team would lose every game, every week against a decent women’s team.

That doesn’t mean that men don’t “know” football though.

I don’t see any Sunday league sides managers being invited onto Sportscene.

I’ve played in Sunday teams who I’d be fully confident would beat Hibs women’s team though, just saying.

[Brightside]

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I agree its the same game, but they are absolutely a million miles away in level - thats the point.

I dont doubt her qualifications, or that she would have more insight than me (im not a pundit either) but by the definition of the role as we know it, she is not qualified in any way.

Fwiw, i think this sense of some moral obligation to like womens football because you like mens football is what puts a lot of men off. Its being artificially inflated beyond any reasonable sense of its popularity, when it is just poor quality football.

I think its great that the women's game is growing, i think its great that participation is growing. Hopefully one day there will be big crowds attending regularly, with a high % of women, and women can even make a living out of it. But at the moment, i dont want to watch it, because its not very good and lacks many of the key ingredients that i love about football. Aggression, needle, speed, decades of rivalry and narrative and grudge, crowds, atmosphere, hatred, tribalism.

Some of those things might come in time of course, but its the emperor's new clothes at the moment. Its just not very good football. Sure, lots of mens football is not very good too, and i probably dont watch that either.

Shelley Kerr is filling a quota. I wouldnt really mind if she was any good, but she is terrible, which makes it a terrible decision.

Nobody it telling anyone to like womens football.... this is nothing to do with womens football. People are complaining that women are being asked to be pundits on a mens football game. Its got zero to do with what you think about Womens football and more to do what you and others think of women.

[Andy74]

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Nobody it telling anyone to like womens football.... this is nothing to do with womens football. People are complaining that women are being asked to be pundits on a mens football game. Its got zero to do with what you think about Womens football and more to do what you and others think of women.

It has nothing to do with what people think of women and if that is what you have picked up then you have't understood.

It is about how expert anyone can be as a pundit when they haven't played the version of the game they are commenting on. That could be non league players, youth players, ordinary fans who only played for their school or someone who has played women's football.

[Andy74]

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Providing your own definition of what a pundit should provide really doesn’t begin to make your ingrained prejudice acceptable in any way. Poor stuff from you over a long series of posts.

Ah, here we go with with the 'you are actually a sexist' response.

[jacomo]

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Providing your own definition of what a pundit should provide really doesn’t begin to make your ingrained prejudice acceptable in any way. Poor stuff from you over a long series of posts.

Doubting Shelley Kerr’s qualifications as a pundit IS sexist imo.

Slagging her as a pundit isn’t necessarily sexist... depending on the motivation for doing so, of course.

[James Stephen]

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Nobody it telling anyone to like womens football.... this is nothing to do with womens football. People are complaining that women are being asked to be pundits on a mens football game. Its got zero to do with what you think about Womens football and more to do what you and others think of women.

She has been given a role based on her career in women's football, and the discussion has been how valid that is, and what the equivalence between the two is, and what the criteria are, or should be for being a pundit on mens football, so i think its been central to the discussion.

And i dont mind women pundits and commentators, if they are good. I do have a problem with rubbish ones being given a gig purely because she is a woman.

[James Stephen]

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Doubting Shelley Kerr’s qualifications as a pundit IS sexist imo.

Slagging her as a pundit isn’t necessarily sexist... depending on the motivation for doing so, of course.

But its the BBCs definition - you have to have played at a level more or less equivalent. Sky do it too, with lower league journey man type players restricted to punditry on lower league games.

Which brings us back to nub - is women's fitba the same as mens, and is shelley kerr qualified. Some think yeah, others think no.

Claiming sexism just posions the debate imo. So on that note, im out, and away to see what her inside has made me for my tea before i go for a pint and watch the fitba as she sees to the bairns.

[J-C]

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But its the BBCs definition - you have to have played at a level more or less equivalent. Sky do it too, with lower league journey man type players restricted to punditry on lower league games.

Which brings us back to nub - is women's fitba the same as mens, and is shelley kerr qualified. Some think yeah, others think no.

Claiming sexism just posions the debate imo. So on that note, im out, and away to see what her inside has made me for my tea before i go for a pint and watch the fitba as she sees to the bairns.

Perfect example is on Quest tv, Colin Murray hosts the show showing all the highlights from lower leagues in England, his guests are generally ex lower league players I've never heard of but have had a decent career playing for say, Plymouth. Now that ex Plymouth player will never get a gig on MOTD or SKY because he's never played at that higher level, most pundits are well known ex pros from to players in the higher league, Jermaine Jenus, Ian Wright, Jamie Redknapp etc. Any women on there are usually ex top female players who have played in the top female league in England or in the continent, there's not many of them but they tend to be very knowledgeable. Shelley Kerr Played for struggling Doncaster Belles in the women's premier league but only for 2 seasons with most of her time playing in Scotland for Kilmarnock, Hibs and Spartans, so not really at a high level as such. I find her football knowledge on the men's game poor and not because she's a woman but because she just isn't a very good pundit and it shows. Unfortunately the BBC have a habit of paying piss poor football pundits to ruin our enjoyment of the game up here.

[JimBHibees]

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She has been given a role based on her career in women's football, and the discussion has been how valid that is, and what the equivalence between the two is, and what the criteria are, or should be for being a pundit on mens football, so i think its been central to the discussion.

And i dont mind women pundits and commentators, if they are good. I do have a problem with rubbish ones being given a gig purely because she is a woman.

What about male ones who are given a gig because of who they played for or who their mates are?

[Andy74]

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What about male ones who are given a gig because of who they played for or who their mates are?

Yes I'd agree with this too. I said in an earlier post that ideally the 'experts' should have played at a high enough level to actually add some insight and experience to what you can see yourself but should also have the right skills and personality. Too many pundits overall fail in some of those criteria.

[Brightside]

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But its the BBCs definition - you have to have played at a level more or less equivalent. Sky do it too, with lower league journey man type players restricted to punditry on lower league games.

Which brings us back to nub - is women's fitba the same as mens, and is shelley kerr qualified. Some think yeah, others think no.

Claiming sexism just posions the debate imo. So on that note, im out, and away to see what her inside has made me for my tea before i go for a pint and watch the fitba as she sees to the bairns.

Youve totally made up that BBC definition.

[marinello59]

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Ah, here we go with with the 'you are actually a sexist' response.

You provided a definition to suit your argument that would specifically exclude any woman from being a pundit for the men’s game regardless of their knowledge and experience. That is sexist.