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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Animal rights vs pet ownership vs veganism

    The other thread about the Leith Puma prompted me to post this. I知 not a full vegan. I went probably 85% vegan when I split up from my ex wife and have totally gone the other way since meeting my girlfriend who is a big meat eater. I feel I知 a total hypocrite though as actually I fundamentally disagree with ownership of animals. Why should we own pets? I知 probably speaking from a position of bias here as I have a phobia of dogs, but why should we be masters of these beasts? I知 probably just declaring my total veganism here but I think it痴 completely immoral for humans to own pets.

    Feel free to argue against or point out my hypocrisy for eating meat to a degree. I壇 be interested to hear vegans point of view regarding pet ownership.


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  3. #2
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    The other thread about the Leith Puma prompted me to post this. I知 not a full vegan. I went probably 85% vegan when I split up from my ex wife and have totally gone the other way since meeting my girlfriend who is a big meat eater. I feel I知 a total hypocrite though as actually I fundamentally disagree with ownership of animals. Why should we own pets? I知 probably speaking from a position of bias here as I have a phobia of dogs, but why should we be masters of these beasts? I知 probably just declaring my total veganism here but I think it痴 completely immoral for humans to own pets.

    Feel free to argue against or point out my hypocrisy for eating meat to a degree. I壇 be interested to hear vegans point of view regarding pet ownership.
    I guess the crux of the matter is that I feel conflicted about my not complete unease at consuming animal products vs my protest against animal ownership

  4. #3
    What is it you object to about people keeping a pet dog, for example, assuming they love and care properly for it? Is it a belief that they should be left wild and with their own?

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    I guess the crux of the matter is that I feel conflicted about my not complete unease at consuming animal products vs my protest against animal ownership
    I can稚 say I致e ever met anyone who was a vegan, now eats meat and in doing so endorses farming animals for it, but doesn稚 think people should own dogs.

  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    We have a cat (though if given the choice I wouldn't). The idea that we own it is ludicrous. He's his own boss.

  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    We have a cat (though if given the choice I wouldn't). The idea that we own it is ludicrous. He's his own boss.
    The idea of anyone owning a cat is tbf 😂

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    I can稚 say I致e ever met anyone who was a vegan, now eats meat and in doing so endorses farming animals for it, but doesn稚 think people should own dogs.
    Exactly. I sometimes think about my love of meat as a food against my position as an animal lover. I致e never considered my position as having pet dogs all my life and felt guilty though!

    I did wonder if the OP had a few Easter beverages given the timing of the post/s.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    The other thread about the Leith Puma prompted me to post this. I知 not a full vegan. I went probably 85% vegan when I split up from my ex wife and have totally gone the other way since meeting my girlfriend who is a big meat eater. I feel I知 a total hypocrite though as actually I fundamentally disagree with ownership of animals. Why should we own pets? I知 probably speaking from a position of bias here as I have a phobia of dogs, but why should we be masters of these beasts? I知 probably just declaring my total veganism here but I think it痴 completely immoral for humans to own pets.

    Feel free to argue against or point out my hypocrisy for eating meat to a degree. I壇 be interested to hear vegans point of view regarding pet ownership.
    It sure what 85% vegan is tbh. You either are or you aren稚 ...


    I would have thought giving an animal a safe be McIntosh environment to live in (such as a dog, cat etc. Would be a perfectly acceptable vegan thing to do...

    An example would be saving battery hens, freeing them from that world and giving them a big space to live in has to be a safe and positive change

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeeRussell View Post
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    Exactly. I sometimes think about my love of meat as a food against my position as an animal lover. I致e never considered my position as having pet dogs all my life and felt guilty though!

    I did wonder if the OP had a few Easter beverages given the timing of the post/s.
    Hell of a session 😂

    There is room for eating less meat, we all have to. That痴 unquestionable. There is also room for being 澱etter consumers of meat. Going for Scottish produce, looking at food miles, buying meat from independent producers, avoiding produce from anything but free range chicken especially.

    Pork is a tricky one because to the consumer it looks like they池e crammed into pens never seeing the light of day, when in fact pork welfare standards are incredibly rigorous. But there痴 the choice: if you want bacon that has been outdoor reared you can have it, if you don稚 you can choose not to.

    The food miles on vegan staples like soya are astronomical.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    The other thread about the Leith Puma prompted me to post this. I知 not a full vegan. I went probably 85% vegan when I split up from my ex wife and have totally gone the other way since meeting my girlfriend who is a big meat eater. I feel I知 a total hypocrite though as actually I fundamentally disagree with ownership of animals. Why should we own pets? I知 probably speaking from a position of bias here as I have a phobia of dogs, but why should we be masters of these beasts? I知 probably just declaring my total veganism here but I think it痴 completely immoral for humans to own pets.

    Feel free to argue against or point out my hypocrisy for eating meat to a degree. I壇 be interested to hear vegans point of view regarding pet ownership.
    No such thing as 85% vegan. You're not vegan but reducing your meat intake is good for you, the animals and the planet. Please consider going vegan.
    As far as keeping pets goes I dont believe we have the right to keep any animal "captive" whether that be birds, fish, cats in houses or dolphins, elephants, lions, tigers etc in seaworld shows or circuses.
    I will however be rescuing a couple of puppies from a life on the streets in Thailand.

  12. #11
    I don't really have any issue with cats and dogs being kept as pets. They have been domesticated for centuries now and are largely adapted to living as human companions.

    I do object to animals that are inherently wild being kept caged up though. Not only as pets but I also find zoos and the like quite uncomfortable. I accept people will say that zoos play a key role in conservation and so on but it's an opinion based on a human saviour complex. We certainly could play our part in saving endangered species but I'd argue a far better way to save pandas would be for humans to stop encroaching into and destroying their habitat rather than artificially inseminating them in zoos. The simple fact is that the natural habitat of pandas is now so small and so fragmented that trying to sustain them as a wild species is a futile exercise. I'd rather leave them to go extinct in peace than see them turned into a circus attraction only found in zoos. I'd extend that to other animals such as parrots and even rabbits kept as pets. There are all kinds of studies which show these 2 animals, among others, suffer terribly from loneliness, depression and stress when kept alone, they need companions from the same species and are naturally social animals.

    To revisit cats and, more pertinently, dogs the biggest issue I have is poor breeding and over breeding. It's a topical subject at the moment with the SSPCA, Dog's Trust and other smaller groups reporting their shelters are at bursting point as people get bored off their lockdown toys. The totally unregulated nature of both breeding and ownership confuses me. I know someone who has a French Bulldog, which seems to be the current fashion accessory for the Instagram generation usurping the Chihuahua of the Facebook era. No experience as a breeder yet the poor thing has been bred from twice already in her 3 years of life. Ignoring the brachial issues that such breeds suffer with is it morally right to pump out 7 or 8 puppies at 」2K a pop to satisfy an inflated demand whilst shelters are struggling to cope? The idea that anyone can start a breeding operation with little to no regulation seems bizarre to me.
    PM Awards General Poster of The Year 2015, 2016, 2017. Probably robbed in other years

  13. #12
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    I'm definitely in the meat eating hypocrite camp. I hate what we do to animals but I love meat and probably will never stop eating it.

    Having a dog as a pet is a mutually beneficial relationship, dogs have become the way they are because originally it benefitted them.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I don't really have any issue with cats and dogs being kept as pets. They have been domesticated for centuries now and are largely adapted to living as human companions.

    I do object to animals that are inherently wild being kept caged up though. Not only as pets but I also find zoos and the like quite uncomfortable. I accept people will say that zoos play a key role in conservation and so on but it's an opinion based on a human saviour complex. We certainly could play our part in saving endangered species but I'd argue a far better way to save pandas would be for humans to stop encroaching into and destroying their habitat rather than artificially inseminating them in zoos. The simple fact is that the natural habitat of pandas is now so small and so fragmented that trying to sustain them as a wild species is a futile exercise. I'd rather leave them to go extinct in peace than see them turned into a circus attraction only found in zoos. I'd extend that to other animals such as parrots and even rabbits kept as pets. There are all kinds of studies which show these 2 animals, among others, suffer terribly from loneliness, depression and stress when kept alone, they need companions from the same species and are naturally social animals.

    To revisit cats and, more pertinently, dogs the biggest issue I have is poor breeding and over breeding. It's a topical subject at the moment with the SSPCA, Dog's Trust and other smaller groups reporting their shelters are at bursting point as people get bored off their lockdown toys. The totally unregulated nature of both breeding and ownership confuses me. I know someone who has a French Bulldog, which seems to be the current fashion accessory for the Instagram generation usurping the Chihuahua of the Facebook era. No experience as a breeder yet the poor thing has been bred from twice already in her 3 years of life. Ignoring the brachial issues that such breeds suffer with is it morally right to pump out 7 or 8 puppies at 」2K a pop to satisfy an inflated demand whilst shelters are struggling to cope? The idea that anyone can start a breeding operation with little to no regulation seems bizarre to me.
    Time this site had a "like" button. Good post 🙏🏻

  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Apologies for the somewhat drunken rambling original posts. A fair amount of booze had been consumed. Although I don稚 really agree with pet ownership, I知 sorry if I offended anyone.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    Hell of a session

    There is room for eating less meat, we all have to. That痴 unquestionable. There is also room for being 澱etter consumers of meat. Going for Scottish produce, looking at food miles, buying meat from independent producers, avoiding produce from anything but free range chicken especially.

    Pork is a tricky one because to the consumer it looks like they池e crammed into pens never seeing the light of day, when in fact pork welfare standards are incredibly rigorous. But there痴 the choice: if you want bacon that has been outdoor reared you can have it, if you don稚 you can choose not to.

    The food miles on vegan staples like soya are astronomical.
    I read this quite a lot about how we will all HAVE TO eat less meat yet and it totally misses the technological innovation happening in meat production.

    Very soon (<5 years) we will have meat that is cheaper than currently but produced without harming or farming or fishing a single animal. In even less time we will have price parity between cultured meat v the slaughtered type.

    Same goes for milk, leather or any other animal product.

    I壇 predict in 10 - 15 years that in the western world that mass farming and culling of animals for food will largely be a thing of the past.

    Not sure where that leaves vegans or pet ownership right enough!

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    I read this quite a lot about how we will all HAVE TO eat less meat yet and it totally misses the technological innovation happening in meat production.

    Very soon (<5 years) we will have meat that is cheaper than currently but produced without harming or farming or fishing a single animal. In even less time we will have price parity between cultured meat v the slaughtered type.

    Same goes for milk, leather or any other animal product.

    I壇 predict in 10 - 15 years that in the western world that mass farming and culling of animals for food will largely be a thing of the past.

    Not sure where that leaves vegans or pet ownership right enough!
    I hope you池e right about that, I really do. But if you were to be wrong and there were to be delays in the technology and that meant that this didnt become reality for say 10 years that could mean it痴 just too late. We need to act now as if the technology doesn稚 even exist yet, then when it does become reality it won稚 matter.

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    I hope you池e right about that, I really do. But if you were to be wrong and there were to be delays in the technology and that meant that this didnt become reality for say 10 years that could mean it痴 just too late. We need to act now as if the technology doesn稚 even exist yet, then when it does become reality it won稚 matter.
    Oh don稚 worry I値l be right. Well I hope so as a good portion of my pension is betting on it

    The technology exists and is proven and is being production scaled as we speak. Not only does it save all the slaughter and rape of the oceans it痴 up to 99% more efficient from a greenhouse gas perspective.

    Record inflows of investment in this area is testament to the effectiveness of the approach.

    These guys now where痴 its at and give a great overview of just what痴 happening.

    https://agronomics.im

    As I said I expect this to totally revolutionise the whole meat, fish and animal derivatives markets beyond any recognition. So much so that I知 firmly of the belief that in a generation the world will look back at the intensive farming days and just not believe we ever did that!

  19. #18
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Bar a single Links market goldfish who lasted the expected few days I've never had a pet.

    Not because I'm against pet ownership, it's just never been something I've done. My mum and dad didn't have them when we were growing up and my adult lifestyle has always been such that I couldn't do justice to pet ownership and it would be a shame on whichever pet I chose so I've just opted out.

    I get angry about folk who get pets and can't do justice to having them. It's not something you should enter into lightly imo and should only be done if you are prepared to take the role seriously.

    In terms of pet ownership I have absolutely no issue with it as long as pets are well looked after. I actually think huge positives derive from pet ownership for all parties so it's something I'm in favour of, and I'm very keen for my daughter to be comfortable around the pets of extended family members (so far so good, she loves them.)

    The animal world is cruel. I'm not sure any strong argument can be made that it would be better for a dog to be fending for itself out in the wild somewhere, either here or overseas than being domesticated and well looked after in a human home and being part of a family.


    Re zoos - I've flipped full circle on that one, I'm now massively in favour. Happy, healthy wild animals aren't plucked from natural habitats and stuck in zoos. The zoos are largely sensitive to the needs of the animals these days and often animals will find there way in there when there is no realistic alternative regarding being released back into the wild. I remember going to Edinburgh zoo about 20 years ago and an obviously distressed animal, iirc a tiger, was wandering back and forth in a very constricted concrete pit. I vowed I'd never go back as it just felt so wrong. I'm now into my second year of holding a season ticket at the zoo and it is totally different now. They appear much more tuned into the needs of the animals and it doesn't feel like you are being part of a problem. It's great to speak to the people who work there, most of them are there through a genuine love of animals and you don't feel like they'd be there if the animals were being mistreated in any way, or if there was a better solution to the situations many animals find themselves in.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Bar a single Links market goldfish who lasted the expected few days I've never had a pet.

    Not because I'm against pet ownership, it's just never been something I've done. My mum and dad didn't have them when we were growing up and my adult lifestyle has always been such that I couldn't do justice to pet ownership and it would be a shame on whichever pet I chose so I've just opted out.

    I get angry about folk who get pets and can't do justice to having them. It's not something you should enter into lightly imo and should only be done if you are prepared to take the role seriously.

    In terms of pet ownership I have absolutely no issue with it as long as pets are well looked after. I actually think huge positives derive from pet ownership for all parties so it's something I'm in favour of, and I'm very keen for my daughter to be comfortable around the pets of extended family members (so far so good, she loves them.)

    The animal world is cruel. I'm not sure any strong argument can be made that it would be better for a dog to be fending for itself out in the wild somewhere, either here or overseas than being domesticated and well looked after in a human home and being part of a family.


    Re zoos - I've flipped full circle on that one, I'm now massively in favour. Happy, healthy wild animals aren't plucked from natural habitats and stuck in zoos. The zoos are largely sensitive to the needs of the animals these days and often animals will find there way in there when there is no realistic alternative regarding being released back into the wild. I remember going to Edinburgh zoo about 20 years ago and an obviously distressed animal, iirc a tiger, was wandering back and forth in a very constricted concrete pit. I vowed I'd never go back as it just felt so wrong. I'm now into my second year of holding a season ticket at the zoo and it is totally different now. They appear much more tuned into the needs of the animals and it doesn't feel like you are being part of a problem. It's great to speak to the people who work there, most of them are there through a genuine love of animals and you don't feel like they'd be there if the animals were being mistreated in any way, or if there was a better solution to the situations many animals find themselves in.
    👍 good post from start to finish and completely agree with it all

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Bar a single Links market goldfish who lasted the expected few days I've never had a pet.

    Not because I'm against pet ownership, it's just never been something I've done. My mum and dad didn't have them when we were growing up and my adult lifestyle has always been such that I couldn't do justice to pet ownership and it would be a shame on whichever pet I chose so I've just opted out.

    I get angry about folk who get pets and can't do justice to having them. It's not something you should enter into lightly imo and should only be done if you are prepared to take the role seriously.

    In terms of pet ownership I have absolutely no issue with it as long as pets are well looked after. I actually think huge positives derive from pet ownership for all parties so it's something I'm in favour of, and I'm very keen for my daughter to be comfortable around the pets of extended family members (so far so good, she loves them.)

    The animal world is cruel. I'm not sure any strong argument can be made that it would be better for a dog to be fending for itself out in the wild somewhere, either here or overseas than being domesticated and well looked after in a human home and being part of a family.


    Re zoos - I've flipped full circle on that one, I'm now massively in favour. Happy, healthy wild animals aren't plucked from natural habitats and stuck in zoos. The zoos are largely sensitive to the needs of the animals these days and often animals will find there way in there when there is no realistic alternative regarding being released back into the wild. I remember going to Edinburgh zoo about 20 years ago and an obviously distressed animal, iirc a tiger, was wandering back and forth in a very constricted concrete pit. I vowed I'd never go back as it just felt so wrong. I'm now into my second year of holding a season ticket at the zoo and it is totally different now. They appear much more tuned into the needs of the animals and it doesn't feel like you are being part of a problem. It's great to speak to the people who work there, most of them are there through a genuine love of animals and you don't feel like they'd be there if the animals were being mistreated in any way, or if there was a better solution to the situations many animals find themselves in.


    I mostly agree. The one caveat being that out in the wild nobody's going to take a knife to your knackers And procreation is what we're all here for in a fundamental biological sort of a way.

    I couldn't look my dog in the eye for weeks when he came back from the vet's.

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member Dalianwanda's Avatar
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    I'm plant based for a year and a half and the reason is 95% down to not wanting to be involved with the exploitation of animals. Its a constant learning & I'm not vegan as I still have a couple of pairs of leather shoes that Im just gonna use till I cant any more.

    I've also got a cat & would love a dog when one turns up. The cat we rescued in TK Max (honestly) we dont own him & like any pet lover (or most that I know) we love him & do our best by him to have a comfortable life. Not sure what that life would have been or how long if we hadnt.

    In terms of a dog we would only get a rescue. Im pretty uncomfortable about dog breeders in terms of keeping a dog pregnant for profit. I see a cross over to the dairy industry in terms of keeping the cows pregnant for milk. My problems with the breeders though the animals who are brough into the world because of them hopefully find a loving owner. The less people go to breeders though the less there wlll be (after all they are only doing it for profit). With a rescue your giving the animal a chance of a good life a chance of love and safety and I cant think of any negatives there.

    Ive only mentioned cats and dogs. Anything thats kept in a cage or a tank or a bowl for our amusement isnt right imo.

    My views have changed even in the last few months where I find it less easy to understand how someone can say they love animals but find it OK to pick ones that are deemed socially acceptable to kill or impregnate for consumption. Thats one view Ive not shared anywhere apart from here though ;-)
    Last edited by Dalianwanda; 02-04-2021 at 03:21 PM.

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