When did it change?

[loanheadhibby]

It’s always happened. Social media just highlights it more.

I remember when I was young, Ralph Callaghan having a rammy with a fan during a game at Easter Road. I think Ralph flicked him the Vickies.

Who’ll ever forget Michael O’Neil arguing with a fan away to Raith in a relegation battle and Keith Wright getting booed in same game.

[Pretty Boy]

I think the likes of Joe Tortolano, Brian Hamilton or even Stuart Lovell would argue that vitriolic criticism of players didn't start with social media.

[Ray_]

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Its always been there. I remember Jim Blair getting absolute dogs abuse back in 1970. Then the likes of Willie McEwan, John Hazel and Jim Black. Even Pat Stanton was getting slaughtered from the terraces towards the end of his Hibs career.

I agree, it was poisonous, Mervyn Jones was another, as was Colin Grant. It seemed to me in the day that some only went to have a good moan and they would start as the players entered the field. Obviously many hen pecked individuals and that was their way of believing they had some control, from players who wouldn't [usually] answer back.

I blame Joe Davis for a lot of it, when he got on a bit [in football terms] while Hibs were trying to replace him as left back, Mervyn, Billy/Willie & even Shades in the early days, all took dogs abuse. Jim Blair lasted a season and returned to ST Mirren for less than half we paid for him, his ungainly style and the fact he replaced Peter Cormack [who also took some stick!!] for a sizeable fee [45k] always meant he was going to be a target for the morons.

[MWHIBBIES]

Hecky time on here was worst I've ever seen it. At times under Ross it has been similar which is mental. Expectations are silly high and patience is silly low. A bad combination.

[CMurdoch]

The 3 big things that have changed the nature of abuse of players are:
1. The internet and social media
2. All seater stadiums
3. Equality legislation

Re 1. Abuse online is off the scale now but if the players have any sense they can easily avoid it.
Re 2 and 3 These have both reduced high level abuse.
Cowards can no longer abuse player anonymously in all seater stadiums and even the thickest folk understand that racist and homophobic abuse will get them in a world of trouble.

[The dalmeny]

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The internet and social media possibly having a big impact?

hiding on the internet behind pretendy names

[ian cruise]

Players always got abuse but it was limited to the terraces or chat between friends in the pub. By the time people got home they'd vented or had a semi-constructive face to face debate and got it out their system.

Now with the Internet people can immediate vent frustrations to a world wide audience, this acts as an echo chamber where many equally frustrated folk will join in and the discontent grows making small annoyances seem like world ending issues. Additionally you have people willing to debate the other side and what was a 5 min chat over a pint before another topic came up is a three day debate with neither side willing to back down, often going to extremes in their point of view like a mule digging in heels. This is worsened by the fact it's recorded for prosperity with people all too willing to drag an argument back to life when they get the opportunity.

This isn't solely a football forum problem, you can see it on almost any topic online, regardless how innocent it might initially seem. Then you have the issue of online trolls who get their kicks out of upsetting others.

It has always existed but it's amplified massively these days.

[basehibby]

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I remember being at a game at ER in the early 80s and standing (as per usual) on the main terracing, just below the TV gantry.

The players were warming up before the game and we were chanting the players' names in turn singing 'give us a wave'

It went...



"Ally, Ally, give us a wave" --- Ally Mcleod waves --- crowd cheers

"Gordon, Gordon, give us a wave " --- Gordon Rae waves --- crowd cheers.

etc,


Then one young guy starts a chant "Benny, Benny, give us a wave" (Benny Brazil)

The rest of the crowd just turn round and look at him in disgust... after which he slinks away to the Pie Stand

I remember some game in the 70s when Aly McLeod missed a sitter and some wag shouted out "MCLEOD - Dulux has got a better finish than you.

I suppose you could say that he damned him with a Paint Phrase

[DIXIHIBS]

Certain players have always had a bit stick from fans but since social media came in its off the scale. A player can have a dozen good games...all is well, 1 bad game and hes the worst ever. As my auld dad to say its either all sugar or all sh@te. No middle ground anymore.

[Brizo]

If you read Eddie Turnbull and Lawrie Reillys books they said that they were the target for the boo-boys on occasion and they were two of the Famous 5!

I remember Jim Black getting pelters and he was part of the best Hibs team of my lifetime.

I remember the likes of Ally Brazil, Hammy and Joe T getting boo'd before ko when the teams were announced over the tannoy.

I don't see any players of the social media era getting the same levels of abuse from the terraces that the likes of Benny Brazil or Hammy used to get. I think a lot of it has moved from the stands to the internet.

All that's really changed is folk can vent their anger over social media 24/7 instead of just during the match and with their immediate pals.

[Brightside]

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When i was a boy (i know) nobody really criticised the players like we do today. 99% of the fans stuck up for every player, all the time.

I remember at school sticking up for players we had, who had played badly or given away a soft goal when discussing games with supporters of Hearts and the bigots, it just seemed what you did then?

I grew up watching Stein Marinello Cormack Stanton and the likes, then the Tornadoes.

Even though i knew we had a few dodgy players, it seemed then that we stood up for them rather than slaughter them like happens now.

I don't remember any vitriol against players in my early days, it really was the opposite.

No doubt someone will correct me, but as times have changed, i really do think things are much worse and cant see it getting better.

When did it happen, and what has caused it?

100% social media and the culture of blame. People are brought up to just complain about everything now. The faceless social media just amplifies it. Plenty players got slagged off when i was a kid - but it was just in the park or in the pubs. The constant need to analyse everything has made it worse. You just need to look at the stuff on here discussing our form. None of it really matters. The position in the table matters, yet you will have someone spending time to show that we only win against the poorer teams,, yet here we are in 3rd place and still plenty people are not happy. Negativity of any sort really isn't good for the brain. It would be great if the next generation worked on removing as much of it as possible.

[Hibbyradge]

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When i was a boy (i know) nobody really criticised the players like we do today. 99% of the fans stuck up for every player, all the time.

I remember at school sticking up for players we had, who had played badly or given away a soft goal when discussing games with supporters of Hearts and the bigots, it just seemed what you did then?

I grew up watching Stein Marinello Cormack Stanton and the likes, then the Tornadoes.

Even though i knew we had a few dodgy players, it seemed then that we stood up for them rather than slaughter them like happens now.

I don't remember any vitriol against players in my early days, it really was the opposite.

No doubt someone will correct me, but as times have changed, i really do think things are much worse and cant see it getting better.

When did it happen, and what has caused it?

It's worse now because we expose ourselves to it daily on here and social media, but it's been around for ever.

Off the top of my head, Joe Harper, Roy Barry, Benny Brazil all got it tight from the terraces. No doubt I would remember more if I thought about it.

[JohnMcM]

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hiding on the internet behind pretendy names

Said “The dalmeny”

[Yorkshire HFC]

I'm not sure it's ever been any different - people in groups have always had a tendency to be nasty.

It's easy to blame the internet, and you see it on this website every day - people calling out players and managers as being useless. Ironic considering that the people being critisised are elite athletes, but I'm sure the same comments would have been made by the same type of people if the internet had been around 100 years ago. It's all done anonymously behind a keyboard, and there are no repercussions.

I don't think Ally Brazil would think critisism of footballers is something new.

[Lancs Harp]

Just to add to what has already been said which lies most of the blame at the door of social media. I think you also have to take in consideration age and perception. When we were young the world is basically a positive place, everything exciting full of hope and innocence. Fast forward a few decades and those innocent edges have long ago been chipped away, the world is perceived as a much more negative and darker place once you have lived in it for several decades, football message boards like our are invariably inhabited by cynical middle aged and above men who are far more comfortable complaining and generally having a negative view about virtually anything than they are about being positive. Other platforms of course are frequented by younger generations who have been brought up to "express" themselves in anyway they want with no consideration for possible consequences. In the world of social media opinion has long since masqueraded as fact.

[Yorkshire HFC]

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Just to add to what has already been said which lies most of the blame at the door of social media. I think you also have to take in consideration age and perception. When we were young the world is basically a positive place, everything exciting full of hope and innocence. Fast forward a few decades and those innocent edges have long ago been chipped away, the world is perceived as a much more negative and darker place once you have lived in it for several decades, football message boards like our are invariably inhabited by cynical middle aged and above men who are far more comfortable complaining and generally having a negative view about virtually anything than they are about being positive. Other platforms of course are frequented by younger generations who have been brought up to "express" themselves in anyway they want with no consideration for possible consequences. In the world of social media opinion has long since masqueraded as fact.

I made the mistake of looking at a thread on here about David Tanner. I've no idea who he is, but some of the comments made by people are horrendous.

As you say, this website may be largely frequented by cynical middle aged men - either that or 10 year old children.

I thought today was all about looking out for other peoples mental health? I don't think football fans have quite grasped what this means.

[ancient hibee]

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Just to add to what has already been said which lies most of the blame at the door of social media. I think you also have to take in consideration age and perception. When we were young the world is basically a positive place, everything exciting full of hope and innocence. Fast forward a few decades and those innocent edges have long ago been chipped away, the world is perceived as a much more negative and darker place once you have lived in it for several decades, football message boards like our are invariably inhabited by cynical middle aged and above men who are far more comfortable complaining and generally having a negative view about virtually anything than they are about being positive. Other platforms of course are frequented by younger generations who have been brought up to "express" themselves in anyway they want with no consideration for possible consequences. In the world of social media opinion has long since masqueraded as fact.

You've destroyed my illusions-I've always thought most of the posters on here were schoolkids

When I started going you only heard barracking if you were standing close enough to the barracker.The general crowd noise tended to drown out any concerted stuff-which there wasn't a lot of. John Fraser used to suffer being booed before getting on the park as his name would be read out as a change to the programme usually replacing Smith or Reilly. Turnbull was booed readily but it didn't worry him because it confirmed to him that the average supporter knew nothing about football. Joe Baker used to get abuse because he wasn't Lawrie Reilly but just a wee laddy.Peter Cormack got booed because he ran funny. The only time I saw trouble erupting was when Gordon Smith was scoring one of the 5 that Hearts scored that day at Easter Road. Some numptie went running down an aisle shouting he was a Hibs reject so a fellow Hibs supporter lamped him to everyone's approval.

[Killiehibbie]

Brazil, Tortolano, Sneddon and Higgins I remember getting quite a bit of abuse. Nobody was immune and just about every player was ripped to bits at some time. I think some guys only went to shout and bawl about how ***** the players were.

[greenlex]

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I dont remember that, not saying it never happened, but i cant remember howls of outrage then.

I think it’s always been there but now it’s every hour of every day on social media. Makes it seem much worse so by default it probably is.

[Phil MaGlass]

Probably started when ah first came oan here

[The dalmeny]

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Said “The dalmeny”

i rest my case

[Keith_M]

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I remember some game in the 70s when Aly McLeod missed a sitter and some wag shouted out "MCLEOD - Dulux has got a better finish than you.

I suppose you could say that he damned him with a Paint Phrase

[Crunchie]

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As a youngster I remember Benny Brazil getting dogs abuse at a level Hibs fans would never accept now. Prior to that Tony Higgins, Ally McLeod and Ally Scott all took their share of vitriol ( McLeod was talented, but he was hardly a chaser of lost causes).

The social media just gives us more of a window into the thoughts of others, I feel that players of yesteryear got it tight several notches above today’s players, particularly inside the ground.

I remember the abuse dished out to Benny and did my fair share of sticking up for him, can't say I ever remember any abuse towards our very own super Ally though.

[Crunchie]

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I think the likes of Joe Tortolano, Brian Hamilton or even Stuart Lovell would argue that vitriolic criticism of players didn't start with social media.

As someone else has said, there's always been abuse but it ended after the match. Nowadays the abuse can go on for weeks / months on end courtesy of social media.

[Smartie]

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The 3 big things that have changed the nature of abuse of players are:
1. The internet and social media
2. All seater stadiums
3. Equality legislation

Re 1. Abuse online is off the scale now but if the players have any sense they can easily avoid it.
Re 2 and 3 These have both reduced high level abuse.
Cowards can no longer abuse player anonymously in all seater stadiums and even the thickest folk understand that racist and homophobic abuse will get them in a world of trouble.

I agree with every bit of this.

Some really vicious stuff was being doled out when I started going regularly in the early 90s. I don't know if anyone who was at the Edinburgh derby Justin Fashanu played in could ever make any sort of a case that abuse is worse these days.

I see some of the things folk pay to go on courses to work on "improving their resilience" so their performance in a relatively cushy job can improve a wee bit. If only they could pay to be Joe Tortolano playing at left-back up the hill at Easter Road in front of the old terracing when he wasn't on the top of his game but having to try to muster a performance from somewhere, they'd soon realise how cushy their own environment actually is.

The worst of social media is really bad and it's often tempting to extrapolate that across the whole of society but it really isn't that way at all.

And I've often thought the anxious home support at Easter Road puts the team off - interesting that this year with no fans our home record is just about as bad as it has been relative to the ability within the squad.

The abuse can suck you in a bit as well. Take Drey Wright for example - I thought he'd had a quietish start for us but competent enough. I'd come on here and read all sorts about how bad he was. Drey might not have set the heather alight for us so far but most of his performances have been of the tepid variety rather than the absolutely horrific (in my opinion) yet the collective wisdom seems to have dragged me in and I find myself thinking "he's crap" automatically rather than going on an individual assessment of his performances which is more "a bit quiet, probably needs to do more but not amazing or crap."

[BILLYHIBS]

Been mentioned before but I remember being at a game in the 1970-80s that was so bad that when the ball was kicked into the terrace a HIBS fan grabbed the ball sprinted up to the top of Shaw Heights and booted the ball into the Car Park miles below to everyone’s approval

Pretty sure Tom Hart gave him Complimentaries for the next home match

[pollution]

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I made the mistake of looking at a thread on here about David Tanner. I've no idea who he is, but some of the comments made by people are horrendous.

As you say, this website may be largely frequented by cynical middle aged men - either that or 10 year old children.

I thought today was all about looking out for other peoples mental health? I don't think football fans have quite grasped what this means.

Talking of which: it would be ideal if posters were obliged to give their age or age bracket.

Sometimes it is impossible to differentiate between adult stupidity or juvenile inexperience.

[Pretty Boy]

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As someone else has said, there's always been abuse but it ended after the match. Nowadays the abuse can go on for weeks / months on end courtesy of social media.

Again I think someone like Joe Tortolano would argue against that. I can remember him being booed before games in my formative years as a Hibs fan. It may have been forgotten about in the week between games but it was quickly resurrected on a Saturday.

Fwiw I think social media plays a part in the sense that criticism or arguments are there forever. It's been highlighted on here recently that people dredge up threads from weeks or months before with no context to prove a point. No one would behave like that in a pub and someone being such a smart arse to the wrong person could well end up with a sore face. However social media is largely an extension of real life, criticism and aggression exists there because it exists in the real world.

I think the 'no one criticised the players in my day' chat is the same rose tinted glasses that has people believing it was always sunny in the summer in the 70s. Memories are selective, people tend to remember the good and compartmentalise the bad somewhere at the back of their mind.

[wookie70]

I started going to ER regularly in the late 70s and there was usually a scapegoat and player who took loads of criticism. Benny Brazil, Joe T, Brian Hamilton would be the ones I remember getting stick from the first decade I watched. There were others like Tony Higgins who got particular comments like he jumps to a height slightly less than his standing height. Even players who were loved like Ally McLeod had comments about their weight etc. I'd say Doidge was a great finisher if I was talking to a Jambo these days and point out he is playing in a better and bigger league than their huddies. Might have a different view on here.

[Hiber-nation]

I remember these 2 clowns in the old North Stand starting up a "Brazil must go" chant. The abuse they got from fellow fans was far worse than what they gave Benny and they were never seen again.