Taking the knee

[Peevemor]

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That'll be ageist then.

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The same people that went through war for freedom for everyone?

Yep . I was being as ageist as I was being serious.

[hibsbollah]

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I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

Racists.

Arguing anything else is total deflection. Sadly folk seem to want to.

[Andy74]

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I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

I think we've all been down this discussion route before and I get that point but you'd think there has to be more to it than that.

You can be against the gesture without being against the thing that it is behind.

Booing is of course a bit of a crude way of making any sort of point but do fans who've been out the stadium a long time have another way to voice something?

A couple of examples of why people might boo this:

They don't agree that football that football should be trying to solve all of the world's issues all of the time and they are fundamentally against a prolonged and ongoing gesture / statement / campaign of any kind.
They still don't understand or know that it isn't linked directly anymore with BLM and that have some issues with that movement, not linked to the racial aspect.

It is happening pretty much every game now with fans in and I think it is too simplistic to say all those people are being actively racist. I think it would be useful for there to be an understanding of what people are booing about.

[wookie70]

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Racists.

Arguing anything else is total deflection. Sadly folk seem to want to.

Totally agree. Booing an anti-racist gesture means you are either racist or thick but most likely both. I'm pretty sure we never took the knee at the Cup Final. I'd rather we did or at the very least started a new initiative that was just as visible and regular. From what I can see in terms of the big issues in English politics over the years racism is very much on the rise and is no longer something that people are ashamed of or want to keep to themselves. Blaming foreigners wins votes and is very popular in England from what I can see.

[WeeRussell]

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I think we've all been down this discussion route before and I get that point but you'd think there has to be more to it than that.

You can be against the gesture without being against the thing that it is behind.

Booing is of course a bit of a crude way of making any sort of point but do fans who've been out the stadium a long time have another way to voice something?

A couple of examples of why people might boo this:

They don't agree that football that football should be trying to solve all of the world's issues all of the time and they are fundamentally against a prolonged and ongoing gesture / statement / campaign of any kind.
They still don't understand or know that it isn't linked directly anymore with BLM and that have some issues with that movement, not linked to the racial aspect.

It is happening pretty much every game now with fans in and I think it is too simplistic to say all those people are being actively racist. I think it would be useful for there to be an understanding of what people are booing about.

They don't agree that football should be helping trying to solve the world's issues - so they boo people taking the knee against racism?

Would these same non-racist people boo through a minute's silence for someone having passed away because they don't think these things should be in football either?

[Kato]

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I think we've all been down this discussion route before and I get that point but you'd think there has to be more to it than that.

You can be against the gesture without being against the thing that it is behind.

Booing is of course a bit of a crude way of making any sort of point but do fans who've been out the stadium a long time have another way to voice something?

A couple of examples of why people might boo this:

They don't agree that football that football should be trying to solve all of the world's issues all of the time and they are fundamentally against a prolonged and ongoing gesture / statement / campaign of any kind.
They still don't understand or know that it isn't linked directly anymore with BLM and that have some issues with that movement, not linked to the racial aspect.

It is happening pretty much every game now with fans in and I think it is too simplistic to say all those people are being actively racist. I think it would be useful for there to be an understanding of what people are booing about.

Or you go the non- circulatory way and just come to the conclusion that they are racists.

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[AliboyFC]

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They don't agree that football should be helping trying to solve the world's issues - so they boo people taking the knee against racism?

Would these same non-racist people boo through a minute's silence for someone having passed away because they don't think these things should be in football either?

Hertz fans did for the pope didn't they? Weirdo diet huns.

[hibsbollah]

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Totally agree. Booing an anti-racist gesture means you are either racist or thick but most likely both. I'm pretty sure we never took the knee at the Cup Final. I'd rather we did or at the very least started a new initiative that was just as visible and regular. From what I can see in terms of the big issues in English politics over the years racism is very much on the rise and is no longer something that people are ashamed of or want to keep to themselves. Blaming foreigners wins votes and is very popular in England from what I can see.

I take a different view, I think the gesture has become a joke, a representation of the dismal failure to change anything post George Floyd. to the point where racially abusing athletes online has become normal and normalised, angry Gammon England is having a backlash because they don’t like being told what to do and what to think. So large numbers of people who want BLM folk to shut up and get back in their box are booing the gesture. Wilfred Zaha spoke intelligently about it the other day.

[Andy74]

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Or you go the non- circulatory way and just come to the conclusion that they are racists.

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Yes, you can but it’s unlikely to give you the right answer or a way to address it.

[hibsbollah]

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Yes, you can but it’s unlikely to give you the right answer or a way to address it.

That massive big grey thing over there, with the wrinkled skin and the big ears and the trunk? What do you think it is?

[JimBHibees]

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I can understand the argument for not doing it anymore.

Booing because people do though is poor to say the least.

Kind of where I am. Why boo if you don't agree just shut up as the assumption whether fair or not will be you are booing because you are racist?

[Kato]

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Yes, you can but it’s unlikely to give you the right answer or a way to address it.

So is it "unlikely" that those booing are racist?

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[Andy74]

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Kind of where I am. Why boo if you don't agree just shut up as the assumption whether fair or not will be you are booing because you are racist?

I get the point, of course, but just shutting up if you don’t agree with something can’t be right either.

What avenue to fans have, if they believe they have a point to make, whatever that is, to a gesture?

[Since452]

If they players made a stand against religious bigotry i think it would help in this country. Taking the knee definitely raised awareness for the BLM movement.

[Andy74]

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So is it "unlikely" that those booing are racist?

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I don’t know, there’s likely a range of reasons they’ve decided to boo. I couldn’t positively say they are all racist though without finding out why.

I don’t stand up and join in with the minutes applause that we started to get just about every week, sometimes multiple times a week. When everyone else is standing up and applauding then my sitting down and watching the game could be taken as disrespectful. I’m not against showing respect to dead people, but I am against the practice of how it began to be done.

I certainly wouldn’t boo mind you so my feelings on it will go largely unnoticed.

[WhileTheChief..]

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Unfortunately right-wing groups with racist undertones managed to convince many that this was political and not about equality and equity. The press played right in to their hands as it sold papers/encouraged clicks online.

The points made by Calum and yourself are correct, booing someone who is supporting anti-racism is a terrible state of affairs and should a distinct lack of class at best, or. proof the UK has a much wider racism problem than the government would like us to believe

This is news to me. Which groups are you talking about here? Which papers?

Sorry but just sounds like hyperbole.

Maybe people are able to make up their own minds!

[Bristolhibby]

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They don't agree that football should be helping trying to solve the world's issues - so they boo people taking the knee against racism?

Would these same non-racist people boo through a minute's silence for someone having passed away because they don't think these things should be in football either?

I’ll wager a large amount that those booing last night would 100% be in outrage and booing at James McClean not wearing a Poppy.

Racist hypocrites.

J

[JimBHibees]

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I get the point, of course, but just shutting up if you don’t agree with something can’t be right either.

What avenue to fans have, if they believe they have a point to make, whatever that is, to a gesture?

I might not agree with a minutes silence for particular people who may have no or any relevance to football however I wouldn't ever think of disrespecting the silence. Think the same applies in that the assumption is that they are booing to disagree with the cause of racial equality. In terms of actions they can put pressure on their club that they don't agree with the knee rather than booing. Fancy booing something that your international or club team are doing which the players have agreed to do in teams which in many cases have a number of black players many of which have been attacked online because of what race they are. Absolutely shocking imo and would be surprised if anyone booing wasnt doing it for racist reasons.

[WeeRussell]

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I don’t know, there’s likely a range of reasons they’ve decided to boo. I couldn’t positively say they are all racist though without finding out why.

I don’t stand up and join in with the minutes applause that we started to get just about every week, sometimes multiple times a week. When everyone else is standing up and applauding then my sitting down and watching the game could be taken as disrespectful. I’m not against showing respect to dead people, but I am against the practice of how it began to be done.

I certainly wouldn’t boo mind you so my feelings on it will go largely unnoticed.

But why do you feel the need to find another reason or understand the sentiments behind booing an action which is wholly and purely about anti-racism and equality?

Regards your point about not joining in with observing applause out of respect (and similar to my earlier question re silences) - if you did start booing while people observed the recent passing of (let's say an ex footballer) would you not rightly expect to be 100% criticised, and surely you wouldn't hope for someone to be making excuses for you or saying it's the only way for you to express your view?

I mean this in the politest possible but most serious way - I really think you need to ask yourself why you are so keen to defend and look for excuses for people booing anti-racist actions, without just brushing it off as adding balance or trying to understand the deeper reasoning.

[WeeRussell]

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This is news to me. Which groups are you talking about here? Which papers?

Sorry but just sounds like hyperbole.

Maybe people are able to make up their own minds!

You're correct that there are definitely enough thick and racist people in the country without it - but the press can and do have an influence.

[CockneyRebel]

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I get the point, of course, but just shutting up if you don’t agree with something can’t be right either.

What avenue to fans have, if they believe they have a point to make, whatever that is, to a gesture?

It's weird, I believe in the stand being made but was never happy with folk taking the knee. Seems too much like a servile gesture to me like bowing, curtseying or tugging a forelock kind of thing. Probably just me, although I would never boo a righteous cause.

[Andy74]

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But why do you feel the need to find another reason or understand the sentiments behind booing an action which is wholly and purely about anti-racism and equality?

Regards your point about not joining in with observing applause out of respect (and similar to my earlier question re silences) - if you did start booing while people observed the recent passing of (let's say an ex footballer) would you not rightly expect to be 100% criticised, and surely you wouldn't hope for someone to be making excuses for you or saying it's the only way for you to express your view?

I mean this in the politest possible but most serious way - I really think you need to ask yourself why you are so keen to defend and look for excuses for people booing anti-racist actions, without just brushing it off as adding balance or trying to understand the deeper reasoning.

In your last point, if you want to address it or stop it, then you find out why they’re doing it.

Gareth Southgate mentioned something similar last night that they have to be misunderstanding something in the messaging. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Labelling them all racists and just carrying on is fine of course but aren’t we trying to change behaviour and educate where possible in all this too?

Any campaign should also be effective and if it isn’t working or not being taken on board to the extent that people are booing part of it then it pays to understand why.

[hibsbollah]

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It's weird, I believe in the stand being made but was never happy with folk taking the knee. Seems too much like a servile gesture to me like bowing, curtseying or tugging a forelock kind of thing. Probably just me, although I would never boo a righteous cause.

That’s exactly what Zaha said.

[WeeRussell]

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In your last point, if you want to address it or stop it, then you find out why they’re doing it.

Gareth Southgate mentioned something similar last night that they have to be misunderstanding something in the messaging. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Labelling them all racists and just carrying on is fine of course but aren’t we trying to change behaviour and educate where possible in all this too?

Any campaign should also be effective and if it isn’t working or not being taken on board to the extent that people are booing part of it then it pays to understand why.

Yes, trying to change the behaviour of racists. Pretending people aren't racist won't help that.

The campaign has been very effective in raising awareness and addressing the subject, while there is much work to be done. Whether the current BLM action needs adapted etc is another discussion. But racists booing anti-racism isn't a fault of the campaign.

[Andy74]

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Yes, trying to change the behaviour of racists. Pretending people aren't racist won't help that.

The campaign has been very effective in raising awareness and addressing the subject, while there is much work to be done. Whether the current BLM action needs adapted etc is another discussion. But racists booing anti-racism isn't a fault of the campaign.

You are talking about BLM so you are also partly confused about what the current gesture means.

You think they are booing anti racism. I suspect they are booing the gesture for what could be a few reasons. Not the same.

[jacomo]

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That’s exactly what Zaha said.

He’s wrong though.

It came from Colin Kapernick and the context was standing for the American national anthem before every (American) football game.

We don’t have that same tradition in the UK so the context is different, but that is where ‘taking the knee’ come from. Not a servile gesture at all.

[Kato]

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You are talking about BLM so you are also partly confused about what the current gesture means.

You think they are booing anti racism. I suspect they are booing the gesture for what could be a few reasons. Not the same.

All of them are booing the gesture?

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[Dalianwanda]

They werent boing the action they were booing the sentiment attached to it. We might feel that the action has run its course or not but to boo it shows you are against the sentiment (taking a knee on its own means nothing apart from the meaning you give to it). The sentiment in this case is taking a stand against racism so anyone booing that is booing against a stand needing to be taken.

You dont boo something you dont understand, you boo something because you are against it.

[jacomo]

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In your last point, if you want to address it or stop it, then you find out why they’re doing it.

Gareth Southgate mentioned something similar last night that they have to be misunderstanding something in the messaging. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Labelling them all racists and just carrying on is fine of course but aren’t we trying to change behaviour and educate where possible in all this too?

Any campaign should also be effective and if it isn’t working or not being taken on board to the extent that people are booing part of it then it pays to understand why.

The folk who booed last night are f****** morons.

I’m all for educating people, but they have to be willing to be educated. Sometimes there is no understanding.

[WeeRussell]

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You are talking about BLM so you are also partly confused about what the current gesture means.

You think they are booing anti racism. I suspect they are booing the gesture for what could be a few reasons. Not the same.

I'm not confused. The Black Lives Matter slogan being used in our sport, and the gesture of taking the knee is solely about equality and taking a stand against racism.

I know you are referring to the sudden use of the word 'Marxist' which the majority of these balloons booing couldn't even spell, never mind explain why it makes them boo an anti-racist gesture, again by way of excusing racists.

Why do you think they're suddenly all concerned about Marxism and left wing organisations rather than happy to see footballers take a stand against racism?