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Thread: Taking the knee

  1. #91
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSheep View Post
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    Well thatís the thing... Iím not trying to tell you what you should be offended by, Iím arguing that we (the royal we) should be concerned with what WE say that could offend others.
    I think the vast majority are concerned, although some may be guilty of the ocassional lapse.

    There are also some who make no effort whatsoever and will wear their whateverism as a badge of honour. Unless they break the law there isn't much that can be done. Ignoring them, thus starving them of the attention they often seek, is often the best option.

    There are also people who, try as they might, will always hold different prejudices - through fear. Some people are simply afraid of things or people that are different. The biggest homophobe I know is a 1st class person, but he has a fear of homosexual men that can manifest itself as dislike. When dealing with someone like that you can either criticise or try to understand and make allowances. I know my preference.

    Those that concern me most are the people that make the right noises and use the correct terminology, but deep down they are racist, homophobic, or whatever. These are the people that can do the greatest damage without necessarily drawing much attention.

    Bottom line for me is that actions speak louder than words. I prefer a genuinely good person who'll sometimes make the odd mistake over someone that presents a very correct faÁade which is, in reality, concealing the worst type of hypocrite.
    Last edited by Peevemor; 04-04-2021 at 05:47 PM.


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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    I think the vast majority are concerned, although some may be guilty of the ocassional lapse.

    There are also some who make no effort whatsoever and will wear their whateverism as a badge of honour. Unless they break the law there isn't much that can be done. Ignoring them, thus starving them of the attention they often seek, is often the best option.

    There are also people who, try as they might, will always hold different prejudices - through fear. Some people are simply afraid of things or people that are different. The biggest homophobe I know is a 1st class person, but he has a fear of homosexual men that can manifest itself as dislike. When dealing with someone like that you can either criticise or try to understand and make allowances. I know my preference.

    Those that concern me most are the people that make the right noises and use the correct terminology, but deep down they are racist, homophobic, or whatever. These are the people that can do the greatest damage without necessarily drawing much attention.

    Bottom line for me is that actions speak louder than words. I prefer a genuinely good person who'll sometimes make the odd mistake over someone that presents a very correct faÁade which is, in reality, concealing the worst type of hypocrite.
    Thank you, I appreciate your insight to the discussion. You make very good points too... can I ask if you have ever tried to discuss it with him and help him see that what you witness can be interpreted as hateful?

  4. #93
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSheep View Post
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    Thank you, I appreciate your insight to the discussion. You make very good points too... can I ask if you have ever tried to discuss it with him and help him see that what you witness can be interpreted as hateful?
    He's perfectly reasonable and rarely says anything to offend (on that front), but if there's a gay bloke in the company then barriers go up - he can't help it.

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSheep View Post
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    Thank you, I appreciate your insight to the discussion. You make very good points too... can I ask if you have ever tried to discuss it with him and help him see that what you witness can be interpreted as hateful?
    Personally think the focus should be on those who are acting on and manifesting their prejudices in some way.

    We all have prejudices and biases. That isnít going to go away. Understanding how they might lead to other people being treated differently as a result is important.

    If friends have a fear or dislike of something Iím not sure that needs a conversation unless they are acting on it.

  6. #95
    @hibs.net private member WhileTheChief..'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSheep View Post
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    Yes, perhaps those lucky enough not encounter any form of racism should be cut slack.... so next time I hear someone using a racial slur (letís not focus on what used to be acceptable and no longer isnít) Iíll just assume theyíve not encountered it, and let them go on their way...?

    Iím not saying there should be harsh consequences in these instances but these fortunate people should be educated on the subject so they understand itís not acceptable.
    Itís been years since Iíve heard anyone use a racial slur in real life, maybe decades.

    Where are these more tolerant countries? There might be a handful, at best, that are as tolerant as the British are towards ethnic minorities, but I donít see any country being held up as example of what we should aim to be.

    The data seems to be freely available knocking us as racists, is there no data for anywhere else?

  7. #96
    Testimonial Due hibby rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Itís been years since Iíve heard anyone use a racial slur in real life, maybe decades.

    Where are these more tolerant countries? There might be a handful, at best, that are as tolerant as the British are towards ethnic minorities, but I donít see any country being held up as example of what we should aim to be.

    The data seems to be freely available knocking us as racists, is there no data for anywhere else?
    We shouldn't aim to be another country, rather a better vwrsion of ourselves.

    If you haven't heard a racial slur or seen any evidence of racism in society in the length of time you state, then you are very lucky, but also probably live in a bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    Personally think the focus should be on those who are acting on and manifesting their prejudices in some way.

    We all have prejudices and biases. That isnít going to go away. Understanding how they might lead to other people being treated differently as a result is important.

    If friends have a fear or dislike of something Iím not sure that needs a conversation unless they are acting on it.
    While I agree that there are some that require more attention than others, but it definitely all starts with the smallest of things. Take Peevemoreís example, if his friend has kids and they see him acting this way around homosexuals, it will most likely affect how his children act in those circumstances, and while his behaviour isnít directly offensive, the influence of it could in fact cause others to become offensive.

    The same can be said about casual racism like stories, jokes, songs and even using outdated terms... no man is an island and while we may not mean to pass on our own insecurities it happens regardless... by highlighting this it helps to start some form of healing in society, one would hope.

    Change will not happen overnight, but the more who back change now the quicker it will come.

  9. #98
    @hibs.net private member WhileTheChief..'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibby rae View Post
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    We shouldn't aim to be another country, rather a better vwrsion of ourselves.

    If you haven't heard a racial slur or seen any evidence of racism in society in the length of time you state, then you are very lucky, but also probably live in a bubble.
    I never said that.

    I donít live in a bubble, I just donít associate with racists

  10. #99
    Testimonial Due hibby rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    I never said that.

    I donít live in a bubble, I just donít associate with racists
    You don't have to associate with them. I remember a few years ago being on a train back from an away day at Fir Park and there was a group of Hibs supporters singing the Edinburgh is wonderdul song. Which is pretty vile.

  11. #100
    @hibs.net private member Lancs Harp's Avatar
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    My one and only post on this subject.
    There are one or two people on this thread who have or had relationships with people from different ethnic backgrounds who tell a different story or have different experiences to people who haven't. My own personal experience I was engaged to a girl from South Africa who wasnt white. She was coloured, its stamped on her ID and she still lives in Eesterust Pretoria. What in many countries in the world (not the racially backward country that is the UK)Coloured means mixed race. In South Africa for instance you are Black, white or Coloured (once again mixed race) its the reason black people object to being called coloured, they are not mixed race. Coloured people in eastern Province in SA make up the majority of the population.of course reading this thread people are unaware of this or put another way ignorant.

    I could tell you story after story about racism especially in SA. The one that really brought it home to me was me and my other half went to Durban for a weekend break. It was lovely, a great beach. but back in the day it was split into three sectors, black white and coloured no race could go into the sectors of a different race. I was taken aback. I asked what would happen if you did go into a different sector on the beach, like me and her. She smiled and said well you would have been ok you would would have just got told off, Im coloured I would probably been put in prison for the night. It hit me so hard, how could that have possibly been the case, what a ****ed up society.

    Back to Britain, the general assumption is we aren't racist and represent a fair and just approach to the world but if you have been in a relationship with some one of a different racial background you will undoubtedly have a different tale to tell and this coming from these fair Isles that colonised and subsequently exploited a third of the world and not for those peoples benefits and now seems fit to lecture the rest of the world on racism and exploitation something Britain has never understood or accepted its role in it.

    Does Racism exist in Britain. Massively, its why its in the news every day. Dont bury your head in the sand.

    Love this site but had to speak out, too many people dont understand.

  12. #101
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibby rae View Post
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    You don't have to associate with them. I remember a few years ago being on a train back from an away day at Fir Park and there was a group of Hibs supporters singing the Edinburgh is wonderdul song. Which is pretty vile.
    I was leaving Fir Park a couple of years ago and I THINK I heard the guys with the drum sing an extra verse to the song about Djoum. Racial slur rhyming with Cameroon.

  13. #102
    Ultimate Slaver Keith_M's Avatar
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    Looks like Valencia know what to do to combat racism.

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancs Harp View Post
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    My one and only post on this subject.
    There are one or two people on this thread who have or had relationships with people from different ethnic backgrounds who tell a different story or have different experiences to people who haven't. My own personal experience I was engaged to a girl from South Africa who wasnt white. She was coloured, its stamped on her ID and she still lives in Eesterust Pretoria. What in many countries in the world (not the racially backward country that is the UK)Coloured means mixed race. In South Africa for instance you are Black, white or Coloured (once again mixed race) its the reason black people object to being called coloured, they are not mixed race. Coloured people in eastern Province in SA make up the majority of the population.of course reading this thread people are unaware of this or put another way ignorant.

    I could tell you story after story about racism especially in SA. The one that really brought it home to me was me and my other half went to Durban for a weekend break. It was lovely, a great beach. but back in the day it was split into three sectors, black white and coloured no race could go into the sectors of a different race. I was taken aback. I asked what would happen if you did go into a different sector on the beach, like me and her. She smiled and said well you would have been ok you would would have just got told off, Im coloured I would probably been put in prison for the night. It hit me so hard, how could that have possibly been the case, what a ****ed up society.

    Back to Britain, the general assumption is we aren't racist and represent a fair and just approach to the world but if you have been in a relationship with some one of a different racial background you will undoubtedly have a different tale to tell and this coming from these fair Isles that colonised and subsequently exploited a third of the world and not for those peoples benefits and now seems fit to lecture the rest of the world on racism and exploitation something Britain has never understood or accepted its role in it.

    Does Racism exist in Britain. Massively, its why its in the news every day. Dont bury your head in the sand.

    Love this site but had to speak out, too many people dont understand.
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  15. #104
    Testimonial Due hibby rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    I was leaving Fir Park a couple of years ago and I THINK I heard the guys with the drum sing an extra verse to the song about Djoum. Racial slur rhyming with Cameroon.
    I wouldn't be surprised. There will be elements within the support of various degrees of ignorance and prejudice.

  16. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    I never said that.

    I don’t live in a bubble, I just don’t associate with racists
    You've shared a stand with several if you've ever been to Easter Road or indeed any other ground in Scotland.

  17. #106
    @hibs.net private member WhileTheChief..'s Avatar
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    Probably passed a few walking along Princes St too but Iíve never heard anyone using racist language or abusing someone.

  18. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Probably passed a few walking along Princes St too but Iíve never heard anyone using racist language or abusing someone.
    Never heard Hibs fans singing the Skacel song ??


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  19. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Probably passed a few walking along Princes St too but Iíve never heard anyone using racist language or abusing someone.
    You've either got incredibly fortunate with who you've been sat/stood near, or you aren't paying much attention. I could list at least ten examples of racism (ranging from casual to downright vile) that I've heard being spouted by Hibs fans.

  20. #109
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    A very fortunate position to be in, but certainly not proof that the issue isnít there, which Iím not saying WhiletheChief is saying.

    It is a question of what a lot of people understand to be racist as well, the level of comfort one has with hearing certain racist words/terms simply because theyíre not used in an aggressive manner towards another person.

    The problem needs a cure that starts at the root, and the root is turning a blind eye to what some consider to be casual or outdated racism.

    To try and bring the original purpose of this thread back in here, taking a knee or taking a stand before games highlights the need to reflect on the topic, it poses questions and opens discussions like this. It may be considered a token gesture but without it there are many who simply wouldnít be aware of the issue at all.

  21. #110
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    I see England fans were booing the players taking the knee last night..

  22. #111
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    Do we still do it?

  23. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs View Post
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    Do we still do it?
    Iím fairly certain we didnít in the final. Think St Johnstone did though.
    Last edited by calumhibee1; 03-06-2021 at 08:25 AM.

  24. #113
    Why a football fan would feel the need to boo any kind of supportive gesture is perhaps part of the problem.

  25. #114
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brightside View Post
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    Why a football fan would feel the need to boo any kind of supportive gesture is perhaps part of the problem.


    I can understand the argument for not doing it anymore.

    Booing because people do though is poor to say the least.

  26. #115
    Administrator matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brightside View Post
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    Why a football fan would feel the need to boo any kind of supportive gesture is perhaps part of the problem.
    I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?
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  27. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?
    Unfortunately right-wing groups with racist undertones managed to convince many that this was political and not about equality and equity. The press played right in to their hands as it sold papers/encouraged clicks online.

    The points made by Calum and yourself are correct, booing someone who is supporting anti-racism is a terrible state of affairs and should a distinct lack of class at best, or. proof the UK has a much wider racism problem than the government would like us to believe

  28. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Because old people are racist. Everyone knows that.
    That'll be ageist then.

  29. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Because old people are racist. Everyone knows that.
    The same people that went through war for freedom for everyone?

  30. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish hibee View Post
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    The same people that went through war for freedom for everyone?
    eh? Is it a load of guys in their 90s at the game last night?

  31. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?
    The "I'm not racist but ..." section of society.

    "I'm not racist but it's political correctness gone mad."
    "I'm not racist but if they don't like it here they can always leave."
    "I'm not racist but it's our culture and traditions."

    etc

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