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  1. #31
    We didn't lose the semi finals because of managers/coaches. We lost them because of careless finishing-something we have done all season.


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  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loanheadhibby View Post
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    Exactly. That’s the problem at Easter Road. The dust settles far too quickly. An acceptance of mediocrity but we got there, we’re 4th. Pah.
    You're the third poster I've asked, what does not accepting something look like?

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient hibee View Post
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    We didn't lose the semi finals because of managers/coaches. We lost them because of careless finishing-something we have done all season.
    How would you explain the second half performance? Was that not in part due to the manager, tactics and strategy?

  5. #34
    Testimonial Due Orchard_Hibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
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    How can having us higher in the table than we almost always finish be classed as a minimum?
    When did that become the case?
    There's an argument to be had regarding a few aspects of his tenure but this ridiculous rewriting of history simply devalues any other points made.
    What do you think is the minimum placing a hibs manager should be achieving? I am fully aware how often we actually finish 3/4th but it’s where we should be looking at given size/budget. 3/4th we are comparing with hearts and Aberdeen or should be at least.

  6. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    How would you explain the second half performance? Was that not in part due to the manager, tactics and strategy?

    The game should have been finished long before the second half.

  7. #36
    @hibs.net private member flash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchard_Hibs View Post
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    What do you think is the minimum placing a hibs manager should be achieving? I am fully aware how often we actually finish 3/4th but it’s where we should be looking at given size/budget. 3/4th we are comparing with hearts and Aberdeen or should be at least.
    I would say top 6 is a minimum with 3rd or 4th place finishes being our better seasons. Throw in a good cup run and happy days.

  8. #37
    Testimonial Due Orchard_Hibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
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    I would say top 6 is a minimum with 3rd or 4th place finishes being our better seasons. Throw in a good cup run and happy days.
    Fair enough, I would like us to finish 3/4th and over the years when I think of managers who I thought where successful this is where they had us Miller although most of his years where poor, mcleish, Mowbray, Hughes,Lennon (Stubbs’ cup win being an out lier to this rule). Stubbs, Collins and Miller are the managers who have won us cups in my years, Ross has blown a great opertunity to join them.

    I’m not saying that I think all the approve where fantastic, football wise Mowbray and mcleish where miles ahead but they had better squads Mowbray and more money mcleish.

    I have digressed slightly.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES View Post
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    Lennon lost 3 matches to Hearts, though. 3 matches to Levein.
    He also lost 2 semi finals.
    He also had a tendancy to pick bizarre teams in big games and often regret it.
    Correct!

    I liked Lennon a lot but there is an incredible amount of revisionist drivel being spouted on this thread.

    The fact is that Ross has actually got us to Hamden in BOTH competitions thus far where he has had the opportunity. Lennon - regardless of luck of the draw etc - got us to one league Cup Semi and one Scottish Cup Semi and lost them both. The opponents in these semis were Celtic and Aberdeen - but we also exited cup competitions to Hearts, Aberdeen again and Queen of the South under his guidance.

    Yes I enjoyed Lennon's time at Hibs but he was definitely much more naughty boy than messiah and was eminently capable of making a pigs ear of selection and tactics on occasion.

    All managers will get it wrong on occasion - and I share in the worry that Ross has been getting it more wrong than right over the last month or so - but let's lay off of the history rewrites re previous incumbents and quit pretending that Ross is the only manager capable of ****ing up.

    NB - If we're going to look back wistfully at ex-managers then at least lets compare apples with apples - Alan Stubbs was far and away our most successful cup manager for eons. He got us to Hamden in three out of the four cup comps entered under his tutelage - including of course the joyful SC Victory of 2016. Lest we forget though - he also managed us to SC Semi Final defeat at Hamden - vs the mighty Falkirk!

  10. #39
    @hibs.net private member flash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchard_Hibs View Post
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    Fair enough, I would like us to finish 3/4th and over the years when I think of managers who I thought where successful this is where they had us Miller although most of his years where poor, mcleish, Mowbray, Hughes,Lennon (Stubbs’ cup win being an out lier to this rule). Stubbs, Collins and Miller are the managers who have won us cups in my years, Ross has blown a great opertunity to join them.

    I’m not saying that I think all the approve where fantastic, football wise Mowbray and mcleish where miles ahead but they had better squads Mowbray and more money mcleish.

    I have digressed slightly.
    Thanks for the reply. I think we can agree that our better seasons see us finish 3rd or 4th especially with a decent cup run thrown in.

  11. #40
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient hibee View Post
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    The game should have been finished long before the second half.
    Aye, but it wasn't and we floundered around cluelessly after Kerr scored, which was actually after 35 minutes of the first half.

    Ross is as much to blame as any of the Hibs players for that pathetic display. I've been pretty supportive of him overall, but the last month or so, the team have been average to appalling (at best).

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    You're the third poster I've asked, what does not accepting something look like?
    Changing the manager if it fails? Changing the mentality of the players/coaching staff. Trying to move players on who have had 5 chances at semi finals but not succeeded? Someone at the club coming out after the debrief on Saturday and explaining what went wrong and what we are going to do to try and ensure we manage over the line.

    It’s not that hard to make announcements/statements . The club do it plenty when looking for cash.

    Saturday was a big day, support was let down yet again. Absolute silence from club until tickets to be sold for Wednesday.
    Last edited by loanheadhibby; 26-01-2021 at 02:57 PM.

  13. #42
    Lennon was handed the best Hibs team we've had in a generation and left it in a shambles. Ross has done a decent job rebuilding, but no better than decent. There is a serious question (verging on doubt) if he can make them any better than that.

    Ross gets yet another chance to win one of our bigger games tomorrow.

  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    A fine spray of water from the hosepipe will help.

  15. #44
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loanheadhibby View Post
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    Changing the manager if it fails? Changing the mentality of the players/coaching staff. Trying to move players on who have had 5 chances at semi finals but not succeeded? Someone at the club coming out after the debrief on Saturday and explaining what went wrong and what we are going to do to try and ensure we manage over the line.

    It’s not that hard to make announcements/statements . The club do it plenty when looking for cash.

    Saturday was a big day, support was let down yet again. Absolute silence from club until tickets to be sold for Wednesday.
    And this non-acceptance is coming from who? Ron Gordon? The fans?

    The term gets thrown around a lot but no-one can actually quantify what non acceptance looks like. If it means sacking managers when they lose big games where do we go next if we're not accepting these results?

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member flash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    And this non-acceptance is coming from who? Ron Gordon? The fans?

    The term gets thrown around a lot but no-one can actually quantify what non acceptance looks like. If it means sacking managers when they lose big games where do we go next if we're not accepting these results?
    What if we sack him and bring a new manager in who fails to beat Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen before the end of the season and doesn't win the Scottish Cup?
    Sack him too presumably.

  17. #46
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
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    What if we sack him and bring a new manager in who fails to beat Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen before the end of the season and doesn't win the Scottish Cup?
    Sack him too presumably.
    Well I'll tell you something Flash, I won't accept it.

  18. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
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    What if we sack him and bring a new manager in who fails to beat Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen before the end of the season and doesn't win the Scottish Cup?
    Sack him too presumably.
    Dunno - depends if we lose those games in a stylish way.

  19. #48
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    Dunno - depends if we lose those games in a stylish way.


  20. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcohibs View Post
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    Failed twice to get us out the championship, blew a playoff against Falkirk, lost a cup final to Ross County. If we'd lost the Scottish Cup final as well he would 100% have been sacked imo
    There's a significant amount of perspective required there. We were a Championship side which reached both major domestic cup finals in the same season while also trying to get out of a league where a play-off was realistically our best bet due to the fact a better-resourced Rangers were almost certainly going to take the automatic promotion spot. IMHO it was wholly understandable that we tailed off a bit in the league due to the fact we were competing on three fronts at a key stage in the season.

    The County final could have gone either way (against a top flight team), we gave it our all against Falkirk but were largely undone (IIRC) by a goalkeeping error and we still had enough about us to deliver what is probably the greatest moment the majority of living Hibs fans have ever experienced. Even if we HAD lost to Rangers, Stubbs would still have been a target for other clubs after such a remarkable season.

  21. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
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    What if we sack him and bring a new manager in who fails to beat Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen before the end of the season and doesn't win the Scottish Cup?
    Sack him too presumably.
    I think we're really bad (and probably not alone as a support) in dealing with what you might call "bumps in the road".

    Ideally we'd have a consistent upwards trajectory, a manager comes in and there's just continuous improvement with no set backs. It's possible to get that, but it's highly unlikely.

    The fallout from the semi finals (which were horrendous and there's very little defence for the team and manager for them) is seeing some people wanting us to scratch the tangible demonstrable progress that has been made, to start again with someone else.

    I'm not sure that's ever a great answer to the problem, to be honest.

    Has Jack Ross had long enough yet? Have we made allowances for the impact of the world we're living in at the moment (and should we?). I don't know the answer, my opinion is probably not (for both questions).

    He needs to win games though, it sounds simple but that's the only thing that will turn folk around now. There needs to be an improvement in performances and an improvement in form.
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  22. #51
    @hibs.net private member Northernhibee's Avatar
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    And this is why Neil Lennon shouldn''t have been near our club. A bang average manager who also couldn't win a semi final, bottled big games by changing formation and the like all the time yet because he's a "personality" and "pundit" we have people who are still blinded by his celebrity and insist he'd have us doing things he never did with us in the first place.


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  23. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I think we're really bad (and probably not alone as a support) in dealing with what you might call "bumps in the road".

    Ideally we'd have a consistent upwards trajectory, a manager comes in and there's just continuous improvement with no set backs. It's possible to get that, but it's highly unlikely.

    The fallout from the semi finals (which were horrendous and there's very little defence for the team and manager for them) is seeing some people wanting us to scratch the tangible demonstrable progress that has been made, to start again with someone else.

    I'm not sure that's ever a great answer to the problem, to be honest.

    Has Jack Ross had long enough yet? Have we made allowances for the impact of the world we're living in at the moment (and should we?). I don't know the answer, my opinion is probably not (for both questions).

    He needs to win games though, it sounds simple but that's the only thing that will turn folk around now. There needs to be an improvement in performances and an improvement in form.
    Good post Fully agree

  24. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Northernhibee View Post
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    And this is why Neil Lennon shouldn''t have been near our club. A bang average manager who also couldn't win a semi final, bottled big games by changing formation and the like all the time yet because he's a "personality" and "pundit" we have people who are still blinded by his celebrity and insist he'd have us doing things he never did with us in the first place.
    He’s won the Scottish Premiership 5 times, Scottish Cup 4 times, League Cup once and the Scottish Championship with us as manager. That’s hardly bang average. He also won many of ‘big games’ with us, including Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and in Europe.
    Last edited by Magpie; 26-01-2021 at 05:01 PM.

  25. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
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    What if we sack him and bring a new manager in who fails to beat Rangers, Celtic or Aberdeen before the end of the season and doesn't win the Scottish Cup?
    Sack him too presumably.
    And what if we keep him and we continue to lose semi finals with a whimper, barely lay a glove on The teams above us and never get to a Scottish Cup/league cup final.

    Possibly it’s not the manager that needs changed and it’s the players who have let us down in last 5 semi finals that need changed?

  26. #55
    I've decided not to accept Saturdays result. What do I do now?

  27. #56
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I think we're really bad (and probably not alone as a support) in dealing with what you might call "bumps in the road".

    Ideally we'd have a consistent upwards trajectory, a manager comes in and there's just continuous improvement with no set backs. It's possible to get that, but it's highly unlikely.

    The fallout from the semi finals (which were horrendous and there's very little defence for the team and manager for them) is seeing some people wanting us to scratch the tangible demonstrable progress that has been made, to start again with someone else.

    I'm not sure that's ever a great answer to the problem, to be honest.

    Has Jack Ross had long enough yet? Have we made allowances for the impact of the world we're living in at the moment (and should we?). I don't know the answer, my opinion is probably not (for both questions).

    He needs to win games though, it sounds simple but that's the only thing that will turn folk around now. There needs to be an improvement in performances and an improvement in form.
    While I agree with you generally, we did have to suffer through the infrastructure years to get to this point where all available money is prioritised towards the first team. With an encouraging shift in paying fees the last two windows. As such we should be delivering “success” (whatever that is) and/or progress, certainly in the mid term IMO.

    It’s not just the wins that are important going forward for me, it’s the “identity” and style that are as important. I don’t enjoy the way we have played most of this season and as a result don’t feel particularly invested in Hibs at the moment or even watch all the games I’ve already paid for.

  28. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    And this non-acceptance is coming from who? Ron Gordon? The fans?

    The term gets thrown around a lot but no-one can actually quantify what non acceptance looks like. If it means sacking managers when they lose big games where do we go next if we're not accepting these results?
    Did i not just state what non acceptance can look like? You can change the manager and try someone/something new?

    We can move on players who have failed to win any of the last 5 semi finals.

    Ron/Graeme Mathie could be a bit more visible to the fans after semi final/final defeats.

    What’s the harm in the club coming out after the weekend to say, we failed this time, we’re going to change x, y and z to try and get it better next time.

    Surely we are entitled to hear from the club (other than JR) after that abject performance.

  29. #58
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    And this non-acceptance is coming from who? Ron Gordon? The fans?

    The term gets thrown around a lot but no-one can actually quantify what non acceptance looks like. If it means sacking managers when they lose big games where do we go next if we're not accepting these results?
    Non acceptance will look like a significant reduction in next seasons season ticket numbers.

  30. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unseen work View Post
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    Who a lot of people seem to forget/don’t mention as it doesn’t fit their argument that he lost a semi final to Ross County and finished 3rd in the Championship.

    Ross has had us 3/4th all season and yet people want him out?!

    It may not always be pretty but by in large it’s been effective. The team will improve massively by the end of the month (new signings, players returning from injuries and fitness levels of those who are back) and we’ll kick on.
    I love that enthusiasm but do you not think to a degree, the horse has bolted for the season? Why were these things (new players excluded) not in place for the semi final with Hearts? Why were fitness levels not bang on for Saturday’s Semi final?

  31. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES View Post
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    I've decided not to accept Saturdays result. What do I do now?
    You could not renew your season ticket, withdraw funding fromHSL, stop buying from club shop?

    You might not choose to do that, but there might be a lot who do.

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