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Thread: Trophies

  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Trophies

    I know nobody likes a 'bit of perspective' when we are all hurting, but the narrative that we do much worse than other clubs in cup competitions does not seem to stack up. Over the last 20 years, the stats since the millennium, excluding the Old Firm who have been dominant for decades, read:-

    Scottish Cup Winners - Hibs, Hearts (2), Dundee Utd, ICT and St Johnstone. Most finals Hibs (4) and Hearts (4).

    League Cup Winners - Hibs, Livingston, Aberdeen, St Mirren, Ross County, Kilmarnock. Most finals Hibs (3), Aberdeen (3) and Kilmarnock (3).


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  3. #2
    @hibs.net private member Lancs Harp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    I know nobody likes a 'bit of perspective' when we are all hurting, but the narrative that we do much worse than other clubs in cup competitions does not seem to stack up. Over the last 20 years, the stats since the millennium, excluding the Old Firm who have been dominant for decades, read:-

    Scottish Cup Winners - Hibs, Hearts (2), Dundee Utd, ICT and St Johnstone. Most finals Hibs (4) and Hearts (4).

    League Cup Winners - Hibs, Livingston, Aberdeen, St Mirren, Ross County, Kilmarnock. Most finals Hibs (3), Aberdeen (3) and Kilmarnock (3).
    I think the point is we've had plenty of opportunities to make that record better.

  4. #3
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    Stop using great stats to back up your argument ;)

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancs Harp View Post
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    I think the point is we've had plenty of opportunities to make that record better.
    I'm not doubting it, but expect every other club has the same story to tell (e.g. - Aberdeen, 1 cup win in 20 years).

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    It is not so much the stats that concern me, more the way we go down to ' lower ' clubs. I don't expect us to beat the obvious Rangers Celtic all the time

    but it is the feckless attitude that the players show when playing against eg St Johnstone that upsets me.


    Most of the players have the ability to play better so what is the problem, I wonder ?

  7. #6
    In the last 50 years we have amassed 3 league cups and a Scottish Cup, given the fan base we could potentially draw upon that is not a great return. Its not a big pool we play in but given we have the disproportionate giants of the OF, every bit of silverware is to be cherished. Chances don't come around every day....to have chucked 2 real opportunities of reaching winnable finals within a few months of each other really, really stings.

  8. #7
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    The Scottish Cup Semi Final was bad . yesterday was indefensible . 3-0 from ******g St Johnstone.
    We were the last team to win a cup before Celtic's dominance and we had a great chance to be the 1st ones after.
    I think this years Scottish Cup will be cancelled due to the amount of no league , lower league team still in it .

  9. #8
    What perspective are these stats meant to show?

    7 finals and 5 lost.

    Cup final losses to Ross County, Livi. Semi final defeats to St Johnstone (shot at Livi in the final), Falkirk (shot at ICT in the final), Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Ayr, a championship Hearts

    It's a ***** record for a club of our size and resources and we should be aiming for better instead of accepting failure as par for the course

    Likely be years before we get a better shot at winning a trophy than what we've just thrown away
    Last edited by mcohibs; 24-01-2021 at 09:14 PM.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Weil View Post
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    In the last 50 years we have amassed 3 league cups and a Scottish Cup, given the fan base we could potentially draw upon that is not a great return. Its not a big pool we play in but given we have the disproportionate giants of the OF, every bit of silverware is to be cherished. Chances don't come around every day....to have chucked 2 real opportunities of reaching winnable finals within a few months of each other really, really stings.
    I think you could make an argument that Hibs, Hearts and to a lesser extent Aberdeen have all under achieved over the years. Fans of all clubs could point to the ones that got away.

    I think that's why semi final defeats to Ayr, St Johnstone or Falkirk and final defeats to Ross County (albeit they were the Premiership team at the time) and Livingston are so damaging and hurtful. Celtic and Rangers can almost afford to write the odd one off because the next trophy is never too far away. Rangers maybe less so after the last decade. Games like last night are the ones we really should be expecting to win. Hearts fans have their Airdrie, ICT, Motherwell and St Mirren defeats amongst others to reflect upon and Aberdeen have lost to St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Motherwell in semi finals in recent years. Of course you could probably list 10 semi finals and final Celtic and Rangers have lost without thinking but when 3 years without a trophy is a disaster that is quickly forgotten. When you have trophy gaps of 73 to 91 to 07 to 16 it becomes a far bigger deal.

  11. #10
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcohibs View Post
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    What perspective are these stats meant to show?

    7 finals and 5 lost.

    Cup final losses to Ross County, Livi. Semi final defeats to St Johnstone (shot at Livi in the final), Falkirk (shot at ICT in the final), Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Ayr, a championship Hearts

    It's a ***** record for a club of our size and resources and we should be aiming for better instead of accepting failure as par for the course

    Likely be years before we get a better shot at winning a trophy than what we've just thrown away
    I'm not looking for an argument the stats show that in the last 20 years our cup record is as good as any other club outside the old firm.

    We are not the perennial losers some would have us believe. I'm not doubting our record could be better but it's still the best of the rest since 2000.

    Who accepts failure as par for the course?

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I think you could make an argument that Hibs, Hearts and to a lesser extent Aberdeen have all under achieved over the years. Fans of all clubs could point to the ones that got away.

    I think that's why semi final defeats to Ayr, St Johnstone or Falkirk and final defeats to Ross County (albeit they were the Premiership team at the time) and Livingston are so damaging and hurtful. Celtic and Rangers can almost afford to write the odd one off because the next trophy is never too far away. Rangers maybe less so after the last decade. Games like last night are the ones we really should be expecting to win. Hearts fans have their Airdrie, ICT, Motherwell and St Mirren defeats amongst others to reflect upon and Aberdeen have lost to St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Motherwell in semi finals in recent years. Of course you could probably list 10 semi finals and final Celtic and Rangers have lost without thinking but when 3 years without a trophy is a disaster that is quickly forgotten. When you have trophy gaps of 73 to 91 to 07 to 16 it becomes a far bigger deal.
    As always, a considered common sense response.

    I get the hurt but we are no different to any other club outside the old firm In fact, the stats since 2000 say we have a better record than Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd (i.e. - the 3 Scottish clubs closest to Hibs in terms of size).

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mcohibs View Post
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    What perspective are these stats meant to show?

    7 finals and 5 lost.

    Cup final losses to Ross County, Livi. Semi final defeats to St Johnstone (shot at Livi in the final), Falkirk (shot at ICT in the final), Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Ayr, a championship Hearts

    It's a ***** record for a club of our size and resources and we should be aiming for better instead of accepting failure as par for the course

    Likely be years before we get a better shot at winning a trophy than what we've just thrown away
    It's really hard to disagree with this when you lay that out.

    Each and every one of those results were huge chances at adding to the trophy list. Imagine we'd converted 50% of the results above into cup wins? We'd be well on our way to making up for a sever lack of success in the past, instead we have fans of other clubs terming phrases like "hibsed it", embarrassing.

  14. #13
    Professional thread starter Diclonius's Avatar
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    This century, most finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
    3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
    6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
    9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

    This century, most semi finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
    3. Dundee Utd (9)
    4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
    6. St Johnstone (7)
    7. Rangers (5)
    8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
    10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

    This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
    2. Nine teams (1)

    This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (8)
    2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
    4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)

  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibee Mac View Post
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    It's really hard to disagree with this when you lay that out.

    Each and every one of those results were huge chances at adding to the trophy list. Imagine we'd converted 50% of the results above into cup wins? We'd be well on our way to making up for a sever lack of success in the past, instead we have fans of other clubs terming phrases like "hibsed it", embarrassing.
    Fans of other clubs who, since 2000, have a worse cup record than we do.

    Some of our support is a joke at times, buying in to the narrative that we are somehow perennial losers.

    The fact you felt the need to mention that term says you've bought in to 'their' narrative this despite the fact that their cup record since 2000 is worse than ours.

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diclonius View Post
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    This century, most finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
    3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
    6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
    9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

    This century, most semi finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
    3. Dundee Utd (9)
    4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
    6. St Johnstone (7)
    7. Rangers (5)
    8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
    10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

    This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
    2. Nine teams (1)

    This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (8)
    2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
    4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)
    What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals.
    Last edited by allmodcons; 24-01-2021 at 10:17 PM.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    I'm not looking for an argument the stats show that in the last 20 years our cup record is as good as any other club outside the old firm.

    We are not the perennial losers some would have us believe. I'm not doubting our record could be better but it's still the best of the rest since 2000.

    Who accepts failure as par for the course?
    Not looking for one either mate I just don't think stats show us in a good light at all, quite the opposite. We've lost the most finals out of any club in that period. I dare say semi finals would be similar.

    I don't see reaching semis or finals as a positive thing to compare against other clubs. It's the outcome of the games that is important and when you see the quality of opposition that we have lost to over those years, it makes for grim reading

  18. #17
    Testimonial Due Chorley Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Seriously, I chose the past 20 years because I thought that was 'recent' history.

    What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals in the last century but, frankly, losing the 1958 SC Final to Clyde is not of much relevance to me.
    The stats above are for the 21st century.

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member Lancs Harp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcohibs View Post
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    Not looking for one either mate I just don't think stats show us in a good light at all, quite the opposite. We've lost the most finals out of any club in that period. I dare say semi finals would be similar.

    I don't see reaching semis or finals as a positive thing to compare against other clubs. It's the outcome of the games that is important and when you see the quality of opposition that we have lost to over those years, it makes for grim reading
    I get where you're coming from but our league cup semi final record is decent, up until yesterday when our record went negative we had won 10/20 league cup semi finals and have 4-1 win record against Rangers.

    Just facts because im not defending we underachieve because for me we clearly do.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Seriously, I chose the past 20 years because I thought that was 'recent' history.

    What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals in the last century but, frankly, losing the 1958 SC Final to Clyde is not of much relevance to me.
    I think those stats are only from 2000 to present.
    PM Awards General Poster of The Year 2015, 2016, 2017. Probably robbed in other years

  21. #20
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcohibs View Post
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    Not looking for one either mate I just don't think stats show us in a good light at all, quite the opposite. We've lost the most finals out of any club in that period. I dare say semi finals would be similar.

    I don't see reaching semis or finals as a positive thing to compare against other clubs. It's the outcome of the games that is important and when you see the quality of opposition that we have lost to over those years, it makes for grim reading
    If, in the period quoted, we are making more finals than any team outside the old firm, then it follows that we are winning more semi finals too.

    The whole point of my opening post was to show that Hibs are no different to any other Club outside the old firm.

    What pisses me off most when we lose a semi final or a final is the narrative (by a section of our own support) that we are perennial losers. If we are to be labelled perennial losers then the stats say that every other club outside of the old firm should carry that label too.

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I think those stats are only from 2000 to present.
    Thanks, my mistake.

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chorley Hibee View Post
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    The stats above are for the 21st century.
    Duly noted

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Time for bed. These stats are too much for me.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    What pisses me off most when we lose a semi final or a final is the narrative (by a section of our own support) that we are perennial losers. If we are to be labelled perennial losers then the stats say that every other club outside of the old firm should carry that label too.
    When we throw away the chance of silverware to teams like Livingston, Ross County, Ayr, Dunfermline and St Johnstone it gives me absolutely no pleasure at all to know that we historically reach more finals than they do.

    The perennial losers tag applies to big games. We are perennial losers in big games. Of that there is no doubt. The stats quoted in this thread (both yours and other posters) prove that. Don't get me started on our derby record... our losers/bottlers tag is deserved. That's the cold hard truth unfortunately
    Last edited by mcohibs; 24-01-2021 at 10:48 PM.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Diclonius View Post
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    This century, most finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
    3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
    6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
    9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

    This century, most semi finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
    3. Dundee Utd (9)
    4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
    6. St Johnstone (7)
    7. Rangers (5)
    8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
    10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

    This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
    2. Nine teams (1)

    This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (8)
    2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
    4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)
    Interesting set of stats....another way of saying this is our success rate in SF is 41% and for Finals is 29%. Not a positive record I know but we do make it deep into a lot of competitions and you do expect success rates to fall as you meet the better teams. Its the non OF section though that paints the picture of why we are all so frustrated, each of those represents a real opportunity of silverware.....and some of those defeats (like yesterday) were horrific. Like I said earlier, we don't have a lot of titles in our long history - 10 really, thats all.....every opportunity should be grabbed with both hands, sadly these stats suggest we don't do that.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mcohibs View Post
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    When we throw away the chance of silverware to teams like Livingston, Ross County, Ayr, Dunfermline and St Johnstone it gives me absolutely no pleasure at all to know that we historically reach more finals than they do.

    The perennial losers tag applies to big games. We are perennial losers in big games. Of that there is no doubt. The stats quoted in this thread (both yours and other posters) prove that. Don't get me started on our derby record... our losers/bottlers tag is deserved. That's the cold hard truth unfortunately
    Obviously forgetting that some of those clubs went bust, leaving unpaid creditors after beating us.

    Scottish football is littered with clubs achieving cup success and then going bust.

    It’s not a level playing field.

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturday Boy View Post
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    Obviously forgetting that some of those clubs went bust, leaving unpaid creditors after beating us.

    Scottish football is littered with clubs achieving cup success and then going bust.

    It’s not a level playing field.
    were St J financially doped when they twatted us 3-0 last night? What about a lower division hearts team at Halloween? The money that pours into them now is from their fans. The not a level playing field argument, while true to an extent in the past, is becoming awfully hollow now.

    I don’t expect us to constantly beat the old firm in cup games or otherwise. But what mcohibs said is factually correct. In big games, with some very lovely exceptions, Hibs will generally let you down.

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia View Post
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    were St J financially doped when they twatted us 3-0 last night? What about a lower division hearts team at Halloween? The money that pours into them now is from their fans. The not a level playing field argument, while true to an extent in the past, is becoming awfully hollow now.

    I don’t expect us to constantly beat the old firm in cup games or otherwise. But what mcohibs said is factually correct. In big games, with some very lovely exceptions, Hibs will generally let you down.
    Unfortunately we aren’t far enough away from any of these teams to win them all.

    We’ve beaten St Johnstone and Hearts I think the last couple of times each that I can remember playing them in the cups.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals.
    That means nothing if we keep messing them up.

    That stat about losing 8 semi finals to non OF clubs is a disgrace. Our club needs to grow a backbone and stop crumbling at Hampden.

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Diclonius View Post
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    This century, most finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
    3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
    6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
    9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

    This century, most semi finals lost:
    1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
    3. Dundee Utd (9)
    4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
    6. St Johnstone (7)
    7. Rangers (5)
    8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
    10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

    This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
    2. Nine teams (1)

    This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
    1. Hibs (8)
    2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
    4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)
    Those bottom two stats are the ones that are really bad.

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