Celtc complain about Sectarian Abuse outside Ibrox

[flash]

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So if it's historic then why do the clubs cultivate it today?

Celtic as a club are actively distancing themselves from a lot of their heritage hence the fact that the Green Brigade despise the current regime.

[hibbysam]

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You don't think this was originally a story of the oppressors and the oppressed?

I can say with absolute certainty that none of those who I spend time with and who sing the nonsense they sing and hold the views they do were an oppressed minority. And if it was historic that gives absolutely no right or relevance to singing such bile in the 21st century.

[The Count]

If this was anti Muslim or anti Jewish singing it would be all over the papers,media and parliament.Now you might not agree with the Catholic religion many on here dont and i understand that but its still a religion like Muslim,Hindu,Judism etc. so one should not be allowed to sing anti songs against it in the year 2021.Scotland is a wonderfull country but this is our cancer.

[flash]

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I can say with absolute certainty that none of those who I spend time with and who sing the nonsense they sing and hold the views they do were an oppressed minority. And if it was historic that gives absolutely no right or relevance to singing such bile in the 21st century.

Think we are at cross purposes here so will leave it at that.

[bigwheel]

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They clearly do have songs and views which are anti British establishment but that's normal for an oppressed minority which is where these songs originated from.
No doubt there are unsavoury elements within both sets of supporters but I still maintain my view as stated previously.

Flash, I’m with you on this thread..there is a difference between the origins of the old firm beliefs and songs..

The anti Catholicism stuff is still live across a chunk of the community. The other side are more focussed on Irish issues than anti- Protestant views ..not saying it won’t pop up, but it’s not a big thing.

That said, most involved have little understanding of the history of the oppressed nature of the Irish and catholic population in Scotland ....nowadays both sides use it more as a way of hating the other side , rather than the origins of the divide, when there was appalling bigotry rampant through the country ..

[Andy74]

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I can say with absolute certainty that none of those who I spend time with and who sing the nonsense they sing and hold the views they do were an oppressed minority. And if it was historic that gives absolutely no right or relevance to singing such bile in the 21st century.

What do you make of Flower of Scotland?

[Keith_M]

I'd imagine there's a long discussion to be had on relation to which club is the worst, what genuine efforts either side have taken to eradicates sectarianism or which group of fans is the most bigoted. But those discussions invariably distract from the actual problem, and there's a real danger of whataboutery.

I think we can all agree, though, that it's disgusting that sectarianism still exists in this day and age and that so little is said or done about it.


As an aside, I actually found an article in the daily Record, of all places, where somebody dared to discuss sectarianism in Scottish Football and even mention Rangers and Celtc. While there may be some parts of it that people disagree with, I applaud the fact that he dared to even write the article.

Celtic and Rangers sectarian chants are reported weekly but ignored by league chiefs - Gordon Waddell

[Keith_M]

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What do you make of Flower of Scotland?

OMG, here we go again, whittabootery.





A perfect example of what I mentioned in the post above.

[Andy74]

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OMG, here we go again, whittabootery.





A perfect example of what I mentioned in the post above.

It’s context and if we want to tackle it then it is important to understand what we are talking about.

I think with sectarianism people throw in a number of things that are not actually sectarian.

Might have nothing to do with football of course and nothing to do with Scotland but most of the things that Celtic fans sing about has to do with historical freedom from oppression, much in the same way that Scotland’s same struggle with England is captured in the Flower of Scotland.

This has very little to do with actively hating a section of society now.

People tend to throw in anything to do with Ireland as being sectarian and that singing about 1916 for example has anything to do with the 1970s and onwards IRA.

Having lived and worked in Dublin and Belfast these things are not necessarily linked.

It is complex and it is why it is difficult to handle.

[nonshinyfinish]

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What do you make of Flower of Scotland?

Parochial, backward looking and mildly embarrassing.

[hibbysam]

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Flash, I’m with you on this thread..there is a difference between the origins of the old firm beliefs and songs..

The anti Catholicism stuff is still live across a chunk of the community. The other side are more focussed on Irish issues than anti- Protestant views ..not saying it won’t pop up, but it’s not a big thing.

That said, most involved have little understanding of the history of the oppressed nature of the Irish and catholic population in Scotland ....nowadays both sides use it more as a way of hating the other side , rather than the origins of the divide, when there was appalling bigotry rampant through the country ..

Irish issues, in Glasgow, Scotland... I’m sure we can see how little that has to do with Scottish football, and Scottish society. And I can assure you the comments they make and the songs they sing are clear in their anti Protestant nature.

It’s easy to say it’s no big deal when it doesn’t affect you, or you don’t hear it every day, but to many it is a big deal, just like the anti catholic stance is a big deal also. There is no place for any hatred in the world, especially when it comes to religion or nationality.

[OstKurve Hibs]

Maybe the sfa and all the clubs are scared to speak up about the bigoted bile spouted from the old firm and taking some kind of stance, but once we are allowed to attend games again there is nothing stoppin supporters of other clubs exiting the stadium en Masse to make a stand against it. I'm pretty sure that would get attention around the world and possibly even shame the s.f.a/government into action.

[Brizo]

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Irish issues, in Glasgow, Scotland... I’m sure we can see how little that has to do with Scottish football, and Scottish society. And I can assure you the comments they make and the songs they sing are clear in their anti Protestant nature.

It’s easy to say it’s no big deal when it doesn’t affect you, or you don’t hear it every day, but to many it is a big deal, just like the anti catholic stance is a big deal also. There is no place for any hatred in the world, especially when it comes to religion or nationality.

I'd maintain that in an essentially secular 21st century Scotland these Catholic and Protestant labels are just that, tribal labels each side attaches to themselves. There may have been a time when a majority of Rangers fans went to the kirk and a majority of Celtic fans went to mass but those days are long gone. I doubt many Rangers fans could name the Moderator of the COS or many Celtic fans know that today's the feast of the epiphany.

Which makes the continuation of this nonsense all the more bizarre. Religious divisions once existed in Manchester and Liverpool, which have similar demographics to the west of Scotland, but they disappeared in the middle of the last century. There may have been a time when the OF reflected divisions in Scottish society but I think nowadays they perpetuate views that have pretty much died out everywhere apart from the football stands.

[superfurryhibby]

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I'd maintain that in an essentially secular 21st century Scotland these Catholic and Protestant labels are just that, tribal labels each side attaches to themselves. There may have been a time when a majority of Rangers fans went to the kirk and a majority of Celtic fans went to mass but those days are long gone. I doubt many Rangers fans could name the Moderator of the COS or many Celtic fans know that today's the feast of the epiphany.

Which makes the continuation of this nonsense all the more bizarre. Religious divisions once existed in Manchester and Liverpool, which have similar demographics to the west of Scotland, but they disappeared in the middle of the last century. There may have been a time when the OF reflected divisions in Scottish society but I think nowadays they perpetuate views that have pretty much died out everywhere apart from the football stands.

I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

[hibbysam]

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I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

And there aren’t any Irish republican marches are there? The previous poster is spot on though. Majority of them on both sides have no idea why they are marching or believing in and haven’t attended church in their puff.

Your point about how well represented they are, are you suggesting that employers still look at an application and hire/fire based on their religion? I’d suggest that’s total tosh unless there are facts and figures to back that up.

[bigwheel]

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Irish issues, in Glasgow, Scotland... I’m sure we can see how little that has to do with Scottish football, and Scottish society. And I can assure you the comments they make and the songs they sing are clear in their anti Protestant nature.

It’s easy to say it’s no big deal when it doesn’t affect you, or you don’t hear it every day, but to many it is a big deal, just like the anti catholic stance is a big deal also. There is no place for any hatred in the world, especially when it comes to religion or nationality.

I hesitate to respond - as it’s not a topic which is ever going to see views converge ...The “no place for hate points” I agree with ..I made reference to this being more about hate than anything else in the post you responded to.

Flash’s points (uncomfortable as they may read) are important history and context imo- these are not just Irish issues - religious persecution existed in Scotland for centuries. Catholic’s have been a often picked on, isolated minority since the reformation , in the 16th century ..that’s why (if I understand him
Correctly) he referenced the oppressed and the oppressors..because it is true for many since football was organised in Scotland in the late 1800s.

there is still a sizeable(but reducing) anti catholic sentiment in some parts of our population. There may be some equivalent the other way around, But it’s never been institutionalised in society in the way anti-catholic behaviour was throughout Scotland for many many years. There has been many books and text exploring this topic ..

Either way, I guess from a macro-point you are right . It remains a blight of Scottish Society, and the football clubs of Glasgow are fuel to that fire..they have never really wanted to eradicate it, in fact they continue to exploit it .

Mind you , last time I pulled someone up about it was a young St Johnstone fan at Haymarket station after we beat them in the semi at tynecastle shouting “dirty fenian b’s” to a group of young Hibs fans on the other platform ..

[hibbysam]

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I hesitate to respond - as it’s not a topic which is ever going to see views converge ...The “no place for hate points” I agree with ..I made reference to this being more about hate than anything else in the post you responded to.

Flash’s points (uncomfortable as they may read) are important history and context imo- these are not just Irish issues - religious persecution existed in Scotland for centuries. Catholic’s have been a often picked on, isolated minority since the reformation , in the 16th century ..that’s why (if I understand him
Correctly) he referenced the oppressed and the oppressors..because it is true for many since football was organised in Scotland in the late 1800s.

there is still a sizeable(but reducing) anti catholic sentiment in some parts of our population. There may be some equivalent the other way around, But it’s never been institutionalised in society in the way anti-catholic behaviour was throughout Scotland for many many years. There has been many books and text exploring this topic ..

Either way, I guess from a macro-point you are right . It remains a blight of Scottish Society, and the football clubs of Glasgow are fuel to that fire..they have never really wanted to eradicate it, in fact they continue to exploit it .

Mind you , last time I pulled someone up about it was a young St Johnstone fan at Haymarket station after we beat them in the semi at tynecastle shouting “dirty fenian b’s” to a group of young Hibs fans on the other platform ..

I actually agree with many of your points, but the original point of the thread was regarding football clubs reporting instances in and around football grounds, and the majority of sectarianism in Scotland these days are linked to football. I’ve no doubt a huge number of folk I know that attend orange walks wouldn’t do so if it wasn’t so engrained in the way of a Rangers fan. Likewise I’ve no doubt majority of those that attend Irish republican marches wouldn’t do so if it wasn’t so engrained in the way of a Celtic fan.

The main point being that their supports are so huge because of their religious divides and it’s the same on both sides.

There is hate in all countries and walks of life, our society is no different and it would exist without football, but IMO nowhere near the issue that it is today.

[Brizo]

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I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

I can only compare my parent's experience, my experience, and my grown-up children's experience.

My parents were children in the 30s and experienced the full effect of anti-Catholicism from being verbally abused and spat at in the street by adults, they saw their Dads and Uncles guarding St Pats against potential attack by mobs, and post-war both my parents experienced "what school did you go to" job discrimination.

As a kid in the 60s and 70s, I got sectarian abuse from other kids due to my school blazer and school fitba strip. Way back in the day I've had comments about my very Irish surname but nothing like what my parents experienced. No job-related discrimination and the only sectarian abuse I've received in the last couple of decades has been as part of the collective Hibs support.

My grown-up kids didn't receive any verbal or physical abuse from other kids when walking to Catholic Primary or High School or when representing those schools at sport. No comments over their surnames and no job discrimination in their post-school work careers.

I personally think you're over-estimating the impact of sectarianism outside football in 21st century Scotland and having worked on government contracts for a large part of my working life I've encountered plenty of Catholics in positions of power and authority.

We'll just have to agree to disagree

[superfurryhibby]

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And there aren’t any Irish republican marches are there? The previous poster is spot on though. Majority of them on both sides have no idea why they are marching or believing in and haven’t attended church in their puff.

Your point about how well represented they are, are you suggesting that employers still look at an application and hire/fire based on their religion? I’d suggest that’s total tosh unless there are facts and figures to back that up.

Yes, Irish republican marches probably exist, but I have to say that there hasn’t been one in Edinburgh for many years. Compared to the frequency of Orange Walks, they are an irrelevance.

I would also point Irish Republicanism is a political issue, not a religious one.

You obviously don’t understand my point, I mentioned that Catholics ( and no doubt other groups) are underrepresented in certain institutions. I specifically named the Police, Judiciary and Politics. I don’t have the statistics, it’s anecdotal, just like your observations. Injust happen to think mine are right and yours aren’t.

I would add, in response to Brizo’s previous point. Society has changed. There is more diversity everywhere. However, the are still barriers in the institutions I mentioned.

[Keith_M]

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...

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

...

There have been some FoI requests in this regards previously about Police Scotland but, as they don't require the individual to state their religion when applying, the exact numbers are obviously hard to come by.

However, the figures supplied for the year of the initial formation (April - Dec, 2013) of the Unified Police Service in Scotland were as follows.

	Police Officers	Staff
CofS	58	8
RC	44	9
Hindu	0	0
Muslim	0	1
Sikh	0	2
Jewish	0	0
Buddhist	0	0
Christian (other)	0	15
No Religion	129	15
Chose not to disclose	41	17

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ponse.pdf.html

[gbhibby]

As long as these two clubs exist and the turnstiles keep clicking this behaviour will continue indefinitely. I have been going to football for nearly sixty years and nothing much has changed apart from Rangers signing catholics. Let them both fester in their own pits. I have heard sectarian comments made by supporters of our club and also other clubs Hearts being the worst. Nobody is born a bigot.

[superfurryhibby]

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There have been some FoI requests in this regards previously about Police Scotland but, as they don't require the individual to state their religion when applying, the exact numbers are obviously hard to come by.

However, the figures supplied for the year of the initial formation (April - Dec, 2013) of the Unified Police Service in Scotland were as follows.

	Police Officers	Staff
CofS	58	8
RC	44	9
Hindu	0	0
Muslim	0	1
Sikh	0	2
Jewish	0	0
Buddhist	0	0
Christian (other)	0	15
No Religion	129	15
Chose not to disclose	41	17

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ponse.pdf.html

Interesting. This is for newly recruited Police Officers. From that Catholic Polis are well represented, Moslem's not so much.

I should have clarified, I was referring to higher echelons of these institutions. I would also add the military as another example where I would guess that Catholics are under represented amongst the officer class.

[Keith_M]

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Interesting. This is for newly recruited Police Officers. From that Catholic Polis are well represented, Moslem's not so much.

I should have clarified, I was referring to higher echelons of these institutions. I would also add the military as another example where I would guess that Catholics are under represented amongst the officer class.

It's really hard to tell, mate, but I thought it encouraging that at least new recruits are being given a fair chance.


As you say, we really don't know what goes on in other areas and I'm sure we all agree that religious discrimination is unacceptable.

[CMurdoch]

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I can only compare my parent's experience, my experience, and my grown-up children's experience.

My parents were children in the 30s and experienced the full effect of anti-Catholicism from being verbally abused and spat at in the street by adults, they saw their Dads and Uncles guarding St Pats against potential attack by mobs, and post-war both my parents experienced "what school did you go to" job discrimination.

As a kid in the 60s and 70s, I got sectarian abuse from other kids due to my school blazer and school fitba strip. Way back in the day I've had comments about my very Irish surname but nothing like what my parents experienced. No job-related discrimination and the only sectarian abuse I've received in the last couple of decades has been as part of the collective Hibs support.

My grown-up kids didn't receive any verbal or physical abuse from other kids when walking to Catholic Primary or High School or when representing those schools at sport. No comments over their surnames and no job discrimination in their post-school work careers.

I personally think you're over-estimating the impact of sectarianism outside football in 21st century Scotland and having worked on government contracts for a large part of my working life I've encountered plenty of Catholics in positions of power and authority.

We'll just have to agree to disagree

Two great posts Brizo.
My experience is that nobody cares about your religion/school other than when you have your football scarf on.
Certainly never an issue at work.
I do find it impossible to be outraged by the guys shouting at the Celtic players in the clip although it would be helpful if they could be sterilised as it doesn't seem right that they should be someones dad. A crayon eating human with a cock does not a parent make.

As for those folk that are interested in marching about the streets playing out of tune whilst wearing ill fitting colourful uniforms and white socks. They are almost certainly supporters of one of Scotland's football clubs. In 21st Century Scotland, sectarianism, in all it's forms, like racism, is generally a hobby for dafties and inadequates and their desperate attempts to be relevant ......... to other halfwits. A strange mating ritual if you will. More to be pitied than scolded as Connolly would have said................Billy that is.
Normal folk barely know they exist and the only reason you and I do is the football. I've always found them to be easily outwitted and avoided except in their own back yard and for that reason will continue to avoid Ibrox & Parkhead where they are found in unfeasibly large numbers.
Sadly the money swallowing monsters that are SPFL football clubs, including our own, will keep taking their money and that means the rest of us have to keep sharing stadiums with them, their songs, their national flags, their culture and their roots for the foreseeable future.

[Scott Allan Key]

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It's really hard to tell, mate, but I thought it encouraging that at least new recruits are being given a fair chance.


As you say, we really don't know what goes on in other areas and I'm sure we all agree that religious discrimination is unacceptable.

Your figures go to show how non-Christian religions are under represented. The real and existing problem today is that kind of discrimination.

Sectarian prejudice only really exists now between Celtic and Rangers as a football matter in Scotland. It's no longer the shooting duck season for Catholics in other areas of life.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[superfurryhibby]

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Two great posts Brizo.
My experience is that nobody cares about your religion/school other than when you have your football scarf on.
Certainly never an issue at work.
I do find it impossible to be outraged by the guys shouting at the Celtic players in the clip although it would be helpful if they could be sterilised as it doesn't seem right that they should be someones dad. A crayon eating human with a cock does not a parent make.

As for those folk that are interested in marching about the streets playing out of tune whilst wearing ill fitting colourful uniforms and white socks. They are almost certainly supporters of one of Scotland's football clubs. In 21st Century Scotland, sectarianism, in all it's forms, like racism, is generally a hobby for dafties and inadequates and their desperate attempts to be relevant ......... to other halfwits. A strange mating ritual if you will. More to be pitied than scolded as Connolly would have said................Billy that is.
Normal folk barely know they exist and the only reason you and I do is the football. I've always found them to be easily outwitted and avoided except in their own back yard and for that reason will continue to avoid Ibrox & Parkhead where they are found in unfeasibly large numbers.
Sadly the money swallowing monsters that are SPFL football clubs, including our own, will keep taking their money and that means the rest of us have to keep sharing stadiums with them, their songs, their national flags, their culture and their roots for the foreseeable future.

These “dafties” have jobs and people know they exist because the small towns of West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Fife and Ayrshire see them marching on their streets every July. West Lothian definitely had issues with members of the council and an MP they elected to Westminster being members of Orange Lodges and openly participating in marches. These guys weren’t without influence.

There have long been issues within the Labour Party in particular ( I don’t suppose the Tories have had much history of being elected in these areas over the past 40 years).

I’m not saying that Sectarianism is operating as openly as it did in the past, but it’s a bit more than just the football.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...pdate/pages/3/

[Peevemor]

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These “dafties” have jobs and people know they exist because the small towns of West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Fife and Ayrshire see them marching on their streets every July. West Lothian definitely had issues with members of the council and an MP they elected to Westminster being members of Orange Lodges and openly participating in marches. These guys weren’t without influence.

There have long been issues within the Labour Party in particular ( I don’t suppose the Tories have had much history of being elected in these areas over the past 40 years).

I’m not saying that Sectarianism is operating as openly as it did in the past, but it’s a bit more than just the football.

The 1st Mrs Peeve had an uncle & cousins in Broxburn who were mad for it. The flute band and marching season was a huge part of their lives.

[madhibby]

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These “dafties” have jobs and people know they exist because the small towns of West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Fife and Ayrshire see them marching on their streets every July. West Lothian definitely had issues with members of the council and an MP they elected to Westminster being members of Orange Lodges and openly participating in marches. These guys weren’t without influence.

There have long been issues within the Labour Party in particular ( I don’t suppose the Tories have had much history of being elected in these areas over the past 40 years).

I’m not saying that Sectarianism is operating as openly as it did in the past, but it’s a bit more than just the football.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...pdate/pages/3/

It seems to be far too easy to attribute blame for sectarianism in Scotland to the Labour Party. I remember the Orange Order/Rangers supporters claiming Glasgow Council is full of Catholics cause all the Labour Councillors are Catholics. And then they look at the last however many Lord Provosts of Glasgow and suggest they are all Catholics and they get the position due to their religion/catholics sticking together etc!

[Pretty Boy]

I often wonder how many younger people join the Orange Order or Flute Bands (often mistakenly identified as being one and the same) because they really want to. How many of us support Hibs because of parental influence? How many of us were enrolled in organisations like Scouts, BBs and the like by our parents? It stands to reason that the same thing happens with institutions like the OO.

I'd broadly agree with the arguments that sectarianism is far less prevalent in society than it once was. In the most formal terms that could be exemplified by the Accession Declaration now being worded as pro Protestant rather than an avowed denunciation of transubstantiation, the Virgin Mary and the veneration of the Saints and thus an attack on the very essence of Catholicism. In more practical terms I don't think people are routinely denied work based on their faith anymore, that certainly wasn't the case only a few decades ago. In terms of worship since the Catholic Emancipation Act the likes of the Test Act and Act of Uniformity are largely irrelevant. Catholics can celebrate the sacrifice of the Mass freely and hierarchies in Scotland and England have long been restored.

We tend to view religious tension in Scotland through the prism of Catholics v Protestants. In reality large chunks of our history since the reformation are typified by Protestants fighting with and killing other Protestants. Calvin and Knox would have been affronted by the religious practices of the Episcopal British monarch who is so beloved of their Presbyterian ancestors in Scotland.

The avowed aim of the likes of the Orange Order or the Scottish Reformation Society is to defend the Protestant faith. Historically that was borne out of a fear of Catholic insurrection and a return to the the practices of the Catholic Church which they had rejected. I can't really see how that is relevant today, the established church in Scotland is a Presbyterian Church that adheres to the Westminster Confession. There is no threat to it from the Catholic, Episcopalian or other minority Christian congregations in Scotland (the biggest threat to all faiths in Scotland would appear to be secularism and atheism imo). Their freedom to worship is inherently protected. So that brings us back to the question of why people join these organisations? A celebration of Protestantism or a celebration of anti Catholicism and mourning the loss of the societal discrimination from which they once benefitted?

[Keith_M]

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... rather than an avowed denunciation of transubstantiation, the Virgin Mary and the veneration of the Saints and thus an attack on the very essence of Catholicism....

Let's be honest, most of these 'Peepul' have no idea what any of those things are, let alone could explain them.

This is all about an inbuilt hatred of the opposing group based on how they see the situation in Northern Ireland... and how much they want to re-create that here.

The Roman Catholic church was a threat to Protestantism, when it viewed them as heretics and carried out large scale murders across Europe to eradicate that specific 'disease'. However, that was a long time ago and various religious hierarchies have since been forced to accept the existence of other religions.

It really is time that both sides stopped living in the past.