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  1. #91
    Testimonial Due gbhibby's Avatar
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    Players are employees of the club so should be aware of the rules. In the case of Aberdeen and Celtic the players knew the rules and chose to break them. The players must abide by the rules of the SPFL so if they break the rules as employees of the club the club has broken the rules. Sanctions should be applied retrospectively to both Celtic and Aberdeen otherwise the SPFL look like they favour certain clubs.

    In business when bankers were breaking the rules even if the banks were unaware of what was happening, the financial authorities fined the banks huge amounts. It called collective responsibility.


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  3. #92
    @hibs.net private member JohnMcM's Avatar
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    These forfeitures of points could be a good thing for Scottish football.

    The precedent has now been well and truly set. Should one or both the uglies get into the same position as Killie and St Mirren then forfeiture must happen.

    If not, the bias towards the west coast is there for all to see and challenge publicly, perhaps legally. On the other hand if the forfeiture is made the first real step in permanently breaking the bias is taken.

  4. #93
    Left by mutual consent! calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbhibby View Post
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    Players are employees of the club so should be aware of the rules. In the case of Aberdeen and Celtic the players knew the rules and chose to break them. The players must abide by the rules of the SPFL so if they break the rules as employees of the club the club has broken the rules. Sanctions should be applied retrospectively to both Celtic and Aberdeen otherwise the SPFL look like they favour certain clubs.

    In business when bankers were breaking the rules even if the banks were unaware of what was happening, the financial authorities fined the banks huge amounts. It called collective responsibility.
    Exactly.

    Claiming that the players can break rules and be punished individually even when it means that games have to get postponed etc is a nonsense.

    They represent the club. When their behaviour leads to their club not being able to fulfil fixtures then the club they represent should be punished along with the player.

    Of course there was absolutely no chance Celtic would ever have got punished in the same vein as St Mirren and Killie.

  5. #94
    Left by mutual consent! Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbhibby View Post
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    Players are employees of the club so should be aware of the rules. In the case of Aberdeen and Celtic the players knew the rules and chose to break them. The players must abide by the rules of the SPFL so if they break the rules as employees of the club the club has broken the rules. Sanctions should be applied retrospectively to both Celtic and Aberdeen otherwise the SPFL look like they favour certain clubs.

    In business when bankers were breaking the rules even if the banks were unaware of what was happening, the financial authorities fined the banks huge amounts. It called collective responsibility.
    Bankers who broke the rules did so while exercising their functions for their employers and in the name of their employers.

    Footballers going to the pub with their mates has nothing to do with their profession.

    Surely you can see the difference.

  6. #95
    @hibs.net private member Jim Herriot's Avatar
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    OK, two admittedly contrived scenarios...

    Suppose that teams A and B are in a relegation battle and play each other on the last day of the season. Team A will only survive if they win by 4 goals. Team B announce they can't field a team and take the 3-0 loss, which keeps them safe.

    The same situation could arise at the top of the table (or in the Euro places). Say celtc need to beat sevco by 4 goals for 10IAR - sevco similarly announce covid, take a 3-0 loss, and win the title.

    I know it's unlikely, but surely this would be possible?

  7. #96
    @hibs.net private member Sylar's Avatar
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    SPFL have made a total tit of this so far this season. They should have put out a set of guidelines/rules for the clubs at the offset so it was clear what would happen in the incidence of a breach.

    Now we've got an instance where Aberdeen and Celtc (fined), Rangers (7 game suspension and players fined), Killie and St Mirren (fined and forfeited games) have all experienced varying punishments.

    Celtc's breach was arguably the worst of the lot and they've had the leanest punishment.

  8. #97
    Testimonial Due gbhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Bankers who broke the rules did so while exercising their functions for their employers and in the name of their employers.

    Footballers going to the pub with their mates has nothing to do with their profession.

    Surely you can see the difference.
    The players were given guidelines at the time as well as the clubs. The players broke the rules to the endangerment of other Employees of the club. The players have a responsibility to the club and players in other teams. Players broke rules and directives at the time. The club have a level of responsibility here to ensure they do not endanger others. This led to games being postponed. In the case of the example given some bankers acted outwith the banks rules to benefit themselves financially the banks were still punished.
    Last edited by gbhibby; 03-12-2020 at 07:37 PM.

  9. #98
    Left by mutual consent! Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbhibby View Post
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    The players were given guidelines at the time as well as the clubs. The players broke the rules to the endangerment of other Employees of the club. The players have a responsibility to the club and players in other teams. Players broke rules and directives at the time. The club have a level of responsibility here to ensure they do not endanger others. This led to games being postponed. In the case of the example given some bankers acted outwith the banks rules to benefit themselves financially the banks were still punished.
    Banks were punished for actions carried out in their name.

    Clubs being punished for players breaking the rules in their own time is just nonsense. Even when players are caught taking drugs, it's the player not the club who is punished.

    Anyway, we're obviously never going to agree.

  10. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Herriot View Post
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    OK, two admittedly contrived scenarios...

    Suppose that teams A and B are in a relegation battle and play each other on the last day of the season. Team A will only survive if they win by 4 goals. Team B announce they can't field a team and take the 3-0 loss, which keeps them safe.

    The same situation could arise at the top of the table (or in the Euro places). Say celtc need to beat sevco by 4 goals for 10IAR - sevco similarly announce covid, take a 3-0 loss, and win the title.

    I know it's unlikely, but surely this would be possible?
    It is also unlikely team A or B would win or lose 4-0 should the game be played.

  11. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooster View Post
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    Haha no we shouldn't. It astounds me how easily some people get offended these days.
    So if motherwell pip is to europe by a couple of points, you aren't going to be upset over it? I certainly will be and I'm sure that would be the talk at the end of the season.

  12. #101
    @hibs.net private member BSEJVT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Because the sides have been denied the opportunity to win 3 points. Motherwell have certainly done very well out of it but that's not their fault.

    The 3-0 result/punishment has been standard for years and wee were all spitting feathers on here when it wasn't applied when Hearts fielded an unregistered player against Cove Rangers a couple of years ago and were only docked 2 points out of the 3 that they won during the match.

    We can't have it all ways.
    Intuitively it seems strange, but when you think deeper, as you have shown above, it is the only fair outcome.

    You could split hairs about the margin, but the margin needs to be the same on every occasion, and that is the recognised standard

  13. #102
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    Absolutely ridiculous. You'd be raging if it was us. How about Aberdeen or Celtic getting retrospectively punished then?

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  14. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Just to add to the debate 😁

    I would deduct 3 points, and if the match is not rescheduled then the same solution as last season.

    It punishes the offending club but neither rewards or disadvantages the opponents.
    Far too sensible...

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy7nil View Post
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    It is also unlikely team A or B would win or lose 4-0 should the game be played.
    We gave it a good try against the Huns a couple of years ago

  16. #105
    Left by mutual consent! Peevemor's Avatar
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    How about this -

    Hibs and Rangers make it to the League Cup final.

    Jamie Murphy is told by his parent club, ie. Rangers (I know we're signing him afterward but that doesn't suit my story), to go to a house party the weekend before the final and hug, cuddle and snog dozens of total strangers.

    Within minutes videos are posted all over social media.

    Should Hibs forfeit the match or should Murphy be suspended/punished?

  17. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by JammyDoidger View Post
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    So if motherwell pip is to europe by a couple of points, you aren't going to be upset over it? I certainly will be and I'm sure that would be the talk at the end of the season.
    I'd be surprised if both Killie and St Mirren don't file an appeal over this. And if they lose, I'd be surprised if they don't take the SPFL to court.

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  18. #107
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcM View Post
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    These forfeitures of points could be a good thing for Scottish football.

    The precedent has now been well and truly set. Should one or both the uglies get into the same position as Killie and St Mirren then forfeiture must happen.

    If not, the bias towards the west coast is there for all to see and challenge publicly, perhaps legally. On the other hand if the forfeiture is made the first real step in permanently breaking the bias is taken.
    West Coast bias? Geography isn't your strong point unless Kilmarnock and Paisley have moved.
    There is no such thing as too much yarn, just not enough time.

  19. #108
    Coaching Staff mjhibby's Avatar
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    Utterly farcical decision. By all means deduct killie and st mirren points but why give Motherwell 3-0 wins. Where’s is the sporting integrity in that. I sincerely hope this doesn’t affect European places or more importantly relegation. Should St Mirren finish last on goal difference or by a point we will have the whole summer with everybody and his granny debating if the decision was fair. The hertz farce where the league had no choice will be old hat compared the the stooshie this could cause. I’m not bothered that we’ll have gained six points and six goals without doing anything, farcical though it is, it’s the impression that others will get of the spl. A Mickey Mouse league with incompetence abounding. This is not Sunday leagues where the team sheets haven’t been filled in correctly. Utterly baffling that the sfa can’t see the .... storm they have created. God forbid we fall foul and if it happens to one of the bigot bros would anybody be surprised if they wriggle out of losing points. Yet another new low for Scottish football. Bravo you utter clowns.
    Last edited by mjhibby; 03-12-2020 at 10:26 PM.

  20. #109
    Coaching Staff mjhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EI255 View Post
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    I'd be surprised if both Killie and St Mirren don't file an appeal over this. And if they lose, I'd be surprised if they don't take the SPFL to court.

    Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
    Would we expect hibs to do the same. I’d think we would. A decision taken because it didn’t affect the big clubs. I’d be very bitter if I was a killie or st Mirren fan seeing how Aberdeen and Celtic were dealt with. Did anybody really think Motherwell would win those games in the form they are in. I can see potential sponsors scoring Scottish football off their lists. Last season was unprecedented but it seems we learned nothing. It’s all we will hear about for weeks now especially if they appeal. Unbelievable.

  21. #110
    Left by mutual consent! Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjhibby View Post
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    Utterly farcical decision. By all means deduct killie and st mirren points but why give Motherwell 3-0 wins. Where’s is the sporting integrity in that. I sincerely hope this doesn’t affect European places or more importantly relegation. Should St Mirren finish last on goal difference on a point we will have the whole summer with everybody and his granny debating if the decision was fair. The hertz farce where the league had no choice will be old hat compared the the stooshie this could cause. I’m not bothered that we’ll have gained six points and six points without doing anything, farcical though it is, it’s the impression that others will get of the spl. A Mickey Mouse league with incompetence abounding. This is not Sunday leagues where the team sheets haven’t been filled in correctly. Utterly baffling that the sfa can’t see the .... storm they have created. God forbid we fall loud and if it happens to one of the bigot bros would anybody be surprised if they wriggle out of losing points. Yet another new low for Scottish football. Bravo you utter clowns.
    I'm not saying the decisions are ideal but to say that they're utterly farcical is wrong IMO.

    With a truncated season (for some), International breaks, last season's Scottish Cup to finish, teams playing in Europe and matches postponed due to Covid (where clubs are not at fault), there's a real risk of an unmanageable backlog come the springtime.

    With this in mind it has been decided that there will be no replays in the SC this year and, it would seem, that matches are to be forfeited in cases of Covid mismanagement.

    The standard penalty for forfeiting a match is a 3-0 defeat.

    Would people be so outraged on here had it been us that picked up the points & GD as opposed to Motherwell? I doubt it.

  22. #111
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    The other issue is that fans miss out games on their season tickets that could still be played. Fans have already massively supported clubs and are not really getting a huge amount in return. Killie fans will now miss two games on their seasons and Buddies fans one. That just is unfair and given how long the season has to go not needed. For starters only St Mirren are still in the Betfred so Killie could either play Motherwell or Hamilton when the Betfred quarters are played. The punishment may be fine but the rewards are wrong and unnecessary.

  23. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    I'm not saying the decisions are ideal but to say that they're utterly farcical is wrong IMO.

    With a truncated season (for some), International breaks, last season's Scottish Cup to finish, teams playing in Europe and matches postponed due to Covid (where clubs are not at fault), there's a real risk of an unmanageable backlog come the springtime.

    With this in mind it has been decided that there will be no replays in the SC this year and, it would seem, that matches are to be forfeited in cases of Covid mismanagement.

    The standard penalty for forfeiting a match is a 3-0 defeat.

    Would people be so outraged on here had it been us that picked up the points & GD as opposed to Motherwell? I doubt it.
    The games where postponed because players drove on the same car. That’s the players fault not the clubs.

  24. #113
    Left by mutual consent! Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The 90+2 View Post
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    The games where postponed because players drove on the same car. That’s the players fault not the clubs.
    What games?

  25. #114
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    SPFL have made a total tit of this so far this season. They should have put out a set of guidelines/rules for the clubs at the offset so it was clear what would happen in the incidence of a breach.

    Now we've got an instance where Aberdeen and Celtc (fined), Rangers (7 game suspension and players fined), Killie and St Mirren (fined and forfeited games) have all experienced varying punishments.

    Celtc's breach was arguably the worst of the lot and they've had the leanest punishment.
    Pretty sure the Spfl board wanted to do this but clubs refused them.

  26. #115
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    Have to say this doesn't sit well with me at all. I'll admit that there is some inherent bias in that suddenly 4th place doesn't look so comfortable anymore.

    What's the bet that either 4th place or relegation goes down to goal difference this season?

    I think my main problem with the covid stuff is Scottish football had an age to prepare for the new season, but still failed to have a clear set of rules and punishments in place for the start of the season. This has led to a feeling of the authorities making it up as they go along.

  27. #116
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    Another point - in light of this, how the hell are Celtic allowed to go off on a jolly to Dubai next month?

    Surely that is ridiculously reckless in the current environment? It'll be very interesting to see what happens if there is a covid outbreak off the back of this.

    Given the tough stance in these cases, I can't see /understand how in the same week a club has been allowed to take their players out of the country for a club holiday and force a fixture to be moved to accommodate this.

  28. #117
    @hibs.net private member scoopyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JammyDoidger View Post
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    So if motherwell pip is to europe by a couple of points, you aren't going to be upset over it? I certainly will be and I'm sure that would be the talk at the end of the season.
    I get that but there is another side to it.

    If we finish comfortably above Motherwell but finish only one point above Killie should we then be grateful that Killie got the penalty.

  29. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by scoopyboy View Post
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    I get that but there is another side to it.

    If we finish comfortably above Motherwell but finish only one point above Killie should we then be grateful that Killie got the penalty.
    Never thought of that side of it, I just don't think rangers or Celtic would ever be involved in this scenario it just doesn't sit right with me, they're making the rules up as they go along and I don't like it. Scottish football has scunnered me lately.

  30. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by JammyDoidger View Post
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    So if motherwell pip is to europe by a couple of points, you aren't going to be upset over it? I certainly will be and I'm sure that would be the talk at the end of the season.
    Uproar and upset? Not for me. The decision makers always get it in the neck from indignant people who feign outrage. Happens in in all sports and walks of life. The sort of people who spend every weekend at protest marches. Governing bodies can never please everyone and by in large I think the football authorities do a good job.

  31. #120
    Left by mutual consent! calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JammyDoidger View Post
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    Never thought of that side of it, I just don't think rangers or Celtic would ever be involved in this scenario it just doesn't sit right with me, they're making the rules up as they go along and I don't like it. Scottish football has scunnered me lately.
    There’s not a chance the same action will be taken if it would finish the title race etc.

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