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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Horgan on the psychology side of things...

    Fair play to Horgan. All other things being equal it’s a big differentiator right?

    When the .net contingent were at HTC (one of Heckys last meetings) he touched on the psychological side of things being really important and hinted that it would be the next thing to look at in further detail (at the time I think we did have a sports psychologist working with the team). He didn’t mention names. And of course Heckys insistence on planning the way he wanted to play regardless was ultimately a big part in his downfall self belief might have seen a better return on goals (and injuries didn’t help his cause iirc but this isn’t a Hecky apologist thread).

    https://www.scotsman.com/sport/footb...r-road-3031291
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.


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  3. #2
    Interesting that. So much about football seems to be between the ears - which is one reason I tend to be down on the boo-boy elements in our support - because to some extent I believe that negativity transmits to the players on the pitch and I always want to see the Hibs support push the team on and never hinder them.

    Of course instilling belief and mental toughness is part of the manager's job and even if it's possible for the fans to both help and hinder in that respect the buck stops with the Head coach. Some have argued after the last couple of games that this is a strength that Jack Ross lacks - particularly as regards "big matches". Personally I think it's way too early to draw that conclusion and would dearly love to see those doubters proven wrong. 10 days ago at Hampden would have been a great time to nip such doubts in the bud and failure to win that game has put a modicum of extra pressure on the players' shoulders.

    Victory over Dundee will go some way to relieving that pressure. The ability to bounce back from poor results is in some ways every bit as important as the ability to rise to the occasion of a big match. The match against Dundee can't come soon enough - here's hoping the result and performance will reinstill some much needed bounce back into the team ahead of our next big match challenge vs Celtic at ER.

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basehibby View Post
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    Interesting that. So much about football seems to be between the ears - which is one reason I tend to be down on the boo-boy elements in our support - because to some extent I believe that negativity transmits to the players on the pitch and I always want to see the Hibs support push the team on and never hinder them.

    Of course instilling belief and mental toughness is part of the manager's job and even if it's possible for the fans to both help and hinder in that respect the buck stops with the Head coach. Some have argued after the last couple of games that this is a strength that Jack Ross lacks - particularly as regards "big matches". Personally I think it's way too early to draw that conclusion and would dearly love to see those doubters proven wrong. 10 days ago at Hampden would have been a great time to nip such doubts in the bud and failure to win that game has put a modicum of extra pressure on the players' shoulders.

    Victory over Dundee will go some way to relieving that pressure. The ability to bounce back from poor results is in some ways every bit as important as the ability to rise to the occasion of a big match. The match against Dundee can't come soon enough - here's hoping the result and performance will reinstill some much needed bounce back into the team ahead of our next big match challenge vs Celtic at ER.
    yup how many times do we hear the phrase “confidence player”. Yogi came out to the defence of Nish (which fell on deaf ears) and more recently we’ve heard from Tortolano - the abuse of which clearly left its scars - if find abuse hard to reconcile with support.

    I think we’re due a turn from the football Gods and our players to get back in the groove.
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member uwxm07's Avatar
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    In my work and personal life as a parent , employee, boss and simply as a friend and colleague , I can’t think of a single time in the last 50 plus years when negative feedback pointless criticism bullying or abuse ever resulted in an improvement in individual or team performance .
    By all means give feedbackTo help improvement, be honest when there are gaps or issues and when a decision needs to be taken Do it quickly and fairly.
    That creates Trust and trust builds confidence and confidence delivers performance to the max

  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uwxm07 View Post
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    In my work and personal life as a parent , employee, boss and simply as a friend and colleague , I can’t think of a single time in the last 50 plus years when negative feedback pointless criticism bullying or abuse ever resulted in an improvement in individual or team performance .
    By all means give feedbackTo help improvement, be honest when there are gaps or issues and when a decision needs to be taken Do it quickly and fairly.
    That creates Trust and trust builds confidence and confidence delivers performance to the max
    We have had a manager and sidekick who went through the players and we all know where that ended up!
    Last edited by Viva_Palmeiras; 12-11-2020 at 12:16 AM.
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Viva_Palmeiras View Post
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    yup how many times do we hear the phrase “confidence player”. Yogi came out to the defence of Nish (which fell on deaf ears) and more recently we’ve heard from Tortolano - the abuse of which clearly left its scars - if find abuse hard to reconcile with support.

    I think we’re due a turn from the football Gods and our players to get back in the groove.
    At the moment of course fans in the ground are not a factor. But it's interesting that Horgan feels he's playing better because he's being less hard on himself. It's a fine balance I suppose for a player between pushing to get the best out of themselves mentally and physically and being relaxed yet focused enough to let their creative talents shine through.

    On the subject of Torto I missed that interview - any idea where I could track it down? He was the ultimate example of a confidence player. Sadly though he had very little of it and a vocal minority of the old East had a very poor grip on the concept of nurturing lols.

    He was blessed with a brilliant left peg though

  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member HoboHarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basehibby View Post
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    At the moment of course fans in the ground are not a factor. But it's interesting that Horgan feels he's playing better because he's being less hard on himself. It's a fine balance I suppose for a player between pushing to get the best out of themselves mentally and physically and being relaxed yet focused enough to let their creative talents shine through.

    On the subject of Torto I missed that interview - any idea where I could track it down? He was the ultimate example of a confidence player. Sadly though he had very little of it and a vocal minority of the old East had a very poor grip on the concept of nurturing lols.

    He was blessed with a brilliant left peg though
    I listened to it on Spotify - type in his name if you have Spotify and it will find Down the Slope......

  9. #8
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    The original session I watched (i think!) was a night at St Pats.
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basehibby View Post
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    At the moment of course fans in the ground are not a factor. But it's interesting that Horgan feels he's playing better because he's being less hard on himself. It's a fine balance I suppose for a player between pushing to get the best out of themselves mentally and physically and being relaxed yet focused enough to let their creative talents shine through.

    On the subject of Torto I missed that interview - any idea where I could track it down? He was the ultimate example of a confidence player. Sadly though he had very little of it and a vocal minority of the old East had a very poor grip on the concept of nurturing lols.

    He was blessed with a brilliant left peg though
    very true - I guess if you beat yourself up and you’re. a confidence player and folks get on your back it must be hell.
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.

  11. #10
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basehibby View Post
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    Interesting that. So much about football seems to be between the ears - which is one reason I tend to be down on the boo-boy elements in our support - because to some extent I believe that negativity transmits to the players on the pitch and I always want to see the Hibs support push the team on and never hinder them.

    Of course instilling belief and mental toughness is part of the manager's job and even if it's possible for the fans to both help and hinder in that respect the buck stops with the Head coach. Some have argued after the last couple of games that this is a strength that Jack Ross lacks - particularly as regards "big matches". Personally I think it's way too early to draw that conclusion and would dearly love to see those doubters proven wrong. 10 days ago at Hampden would have been a great time to nip such doubts in the bud and failure to win that game has put a modicum of extra pressure on the players' shoulders.

    Victory over Dundee will go some way to relieving that pressure. The ability to bounce back from poor results is in some ways every bit as important as the ability to rise to the occasion of a big match. The match against Dundee can't come soon enough - here's hoping the result and performance will reinstill some much needed bounce back into the team ahead of our next big match challenge vs Celtic at ER.
    There is no doubt that fans directly affect performance by their reaction whether that positive or negative hence the reason a positive singing section can in many ways influence the team by drowning out fans who they they are able to scream at a player how poor they are. Must be loads of players this affects.

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uwxm07 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In my work and personal life as a parent , employee, boss and simply as a friend and colleague , I can’t think of a single time in the last 50 plus years when negative feedback pointless criticism bullying or abuse ever resulted in an improvement in individual or team performance .
    By all means give feedbackTo help improvement, be honest when there are gaps or issues and when a decision needs to be taken Do it quickly and fairly.
    That creates Trust and trust builds confidence and confidence delivers performance to the max
    Great post agree with every word.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by uwxm07 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In my work and personal life as a parent , employee, boss and simply as a friend and colleague , I can’t think of a single time in the last 50 plus years when negative feedback pointless criticism bullying or abuse ever resulted in an improvement in individual or team performance .
    By all means give feedbackTo help improvement, be honest when there are gaps or issues and when a decision needs to be taken Do it quickly and fairly.
    That creates Trust and trust builds confidence and confidence delivers performance to the max
    No-one can disagree with you given your use of the word "pointless". Getting a positive reaction from criticism, including in a sporting context criticism that can be deemed to spill over into bullying (think Fergie's hair drier treatments), depends on the environment, circumstances and personnel. Everyone is different and reacts differently to different types and degrees of criticism. A coach needs to know his/her players or athletes well enough to adopt the right approach to get the desired improvement. Will he/she react best to a quiet 1to1 and encouragement to self-reflect on how they can improve, or does he/she need a massive kick up the backside, taken down a peg or two, or even embarrassed in front of team mates to get them to realise how they are letting themselves and the team down.
    Look at how massively successful GB sports such as cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc have been over the last 20 years or so when previously they were an embarrassment on the world stage. Yet now they are all having to deal with coaches being accused of bullying when pushing athletes to the limit and we have national sporting bodies holding enquiries and making promises to end bullying cultures in performance sport. "Excuse me Mr Ferguson, our committee thinks you shouldn't be shouting at your players like that. We're sure you can still win all these trophies by being a nice man." Cue a gradual decline in world/Olympic medals in the sports that adopt such a wishy-washy approach to their performance programmes.

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member jacomo's Avatar
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    Daryl seems like a lovely guy and I wish him all the best.

    There is always a sense of unfulfilled potential about him, but as has been said above, football is a sport played with the head as much as the feet.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by basehibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    At the moment of course fans in the ground are not a factor. But it's interesting that Horgan feels he's playing better because he's being less hard on himself. It's a fine balance I suppose for a player between pushing to get the best out of themselves mentally and physically and being relaxed yet focused enough to let their creative talents shine through.

    On the subject of Torto I missed that interview - any idea where I could track it down? He was the ultimate example of a confidence player. Sadly though he had very little of it and a vocal minority of the old East had a very poor grip on the concept of nurturing lols.

    He was blessed with a brilliant left peg though
    Its fascinating. I suppose it must also be different for different positions. Attacking players will make more 'mistakes' generally due to the nature of their position, so its a different kind of mentality.

    Agree with the earlier comments made about our fans being a hindrance at times.

    That St Johnstone game under Hecky was the most obvious recent example i can think of - such a tangible difference in the atmosphere had such a noticeable effect on the team.
    Last edited by James Stephen; 12-11-2020 at 11:20 AM.

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeard View Post
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    No-one can disagree with you given your use of the word "pointless". Getting a positive reaction from criticism, including in a sporting context criticism that can be deemed to spill over into bullying (think Fergie's hair drier treatments), depends on the environment, circumstances and personnel. Everyone is different and reacts differently to different types and degrees of criticism. A coach needs to know his/her players or athletes well enough to adopt the right approach to get the desired improvement. Will he/she react best to a quiet 1to1 and encouragement to self-reflect on how they can improve, or does he/she need a massive kick up the backside, taken down a peg or two, or even embarrassed in front of team mates to get them to realise how they are letting themselves and the team down.
    Look at how massively successful GB sports such as cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc have been over the last 20 years or so when previously they were an embarrassment on the world stage. Yet now they are all having to deal with coaches being accused of bullying when pushing athletes to the limit and we have national sporting bodies holding enquiries and making promises to end bullying cultures in performance sport. "Excuse me Mr Ferguson, our committee thinks you shouldn't be shouting at your players like that. We're sure you can still win all these trophies by being a nice man." Cue a gradual decline in world/Olympic medals in the sports that adopt such a wishy-washy approach to their performance programmes.
    Interesting choice as these sports immediately spring to mind as having the very problems that should not exist in list examples of how to do it right.

    Here’s the result of your “wishy washy sports programmes”.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a7789211.html


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-be-eradicated


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletic...e-fat-shaming/

    and more details on gymnastics



    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...se-ageism.html


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/53419739


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gymnasti...sh-gymnastics/

    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Viva_Palmeiras View Post
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    Interesting choice as these sports immediately spring to mind as having the very problems that should not exist in list examples of how to do it right.

    Here’s the result of your “wishy washy sports programmes”.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a7789211.html


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-be-eradicated


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletic...e-fat-shaming/

    and more details on gymnastics



    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...se-ageism.html


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/53419739


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gymnasti...sh-gymnastics/

    Exactly my point. Thanks for the examples to back up what I said, namely cue a gradual decline in World/Olympic medals in these sports.
    For every athlete who complains retrospectively about having being bullied through their performance programme, and from what I have read it is often, although not exclusively, the athletes who have not made it or not maintained it who do so, there will be just as many, the ones who actually succeeded in getting that elusive World or Olympic medal, who will acknowledge that they wouldn't have achieved what they did had they not been pushed and pushed again through their own perceived barriers to their physical and psychological performance.

  18. #17
    Have UK Cycling and Gymnastic not been hugely improving in the last few decades. Not saying I agree with the methods but I do think criticism and honesty is the most important element of feedback. In my work being critical is frown upon and there are so many nodding dugs scratching each others backs and telling each other what a wonderful job they are all doing that the positive message for realists is ignored as it simply isn't true. I don't see it as an issue if a coach says to a performance athlete that losing a few pounds may improve performance. I also don't have an issue with crowds getting a bit angry about a teams attitude and work rate. I think some players will wilt but others will up their game and ask the same of team mates. There is a line though and some criticise everything a player does and fail to see the positives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viva_Palmeiras View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Interesting choice as these sports immediately spring to mind as having the very problems that should not exist in list examples of how to do it right.

    Here’s the result of your “wishy washy sports programmes”.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a7789211.html


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-be-eradicated


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletic...e-fat-shaming/

    and more details on gymnastics



    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...se-ageism.html


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/53419739


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gymnasti...sh-gymnastics/

    Last edited by wookie70; 12-11-2020 at 02:01 PM.

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie70 View Post
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    Have UK Cycling and Gymnastic not been hugely improving in the last few decades. Not saying I agree with the methods but I do think criticism and honesty is the most important element of feedback. In my work being critical is frown upon and there are so many nodding dugs scratching each others backs and telling each other what a wonderful job they are all doing that the positive message for realists is ignored as it simply isn't true. I don't see it as an issue if a coach says to a performance athlete that losing a few pounds may improve performance. I also don't have an issue with crowds getting a bit angry about a teams attitude and work rate. I think some players will wilt but others will up their game and ask the same of team mates. There is a line though and some criticise everything a player does and fail to see the positives.


    yeah it’s all about how it’s (feedback) done. RadicAl candour (https://www.radicalcandor.com/) is one that’s a bit of a flavour in “Agile” circles. Seems to me again it depends on how people interpret it and deliver it.
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Viva_Palmeiras View Post
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    yeah it’s all about how it’s (feedback) done. RadicAl candour (https://www.radicalcandor.com/) is one that’s a bit of a flavour in “Agile” circles. Seems to me again it depends on how people interpret it and deliver it.
    Looks like typical corporate bull where huge numbers of people are employed to tell productive workers things they know already. If radical candor translates to honest and timely feedback then good managers have done that forever without the latest American type HR buzzwords. We are in complete agreement about how it is done though

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