Greatest player of all time?

[Hakim Sar]

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Your insistence that footballers/athletes have made minuscule physical improvements in the last 50 years is what’s nonsense. The world record holder in other sports like the 100m - a skill that would have some sort of benefit in football - wouldn’t even get to compete at the elite level anymore, never mind challenge to be the best, yet you’re convinced that football - as one of the wealthiest sports in the world - for some reason was missed out in these massive improvements.

You don’t even need statistics to see that players have improved massively physically. Watch peak Cristiano Ronaldo breaking up the pitch on a counter attack and try tell me with a straight face that players from yesteryear could do it at anywhere near the same sort of speed. Likewise watch Ronaldo score his header the other season for Juve and tell me a player from yesteryear could get to that sort of height. He’s literally above the crossbar. They quite simply couldn’t.

You might be wrong on the 100m sprint part. A scientific study on Jesse Owens, Usain Bolt and Roger Bannister - https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epst...ce=tedcomshare

Jesse Owens absolutely would compete at the top level nearing 80/90 years after he competed.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Current Hibs team would hammer the Tornadoes. Probably about 5 or 6 nil.

Similarly if you took the Lisbon Lions and put them against the current European Champions they would be absolutely annihilated. Would probably be about 10-0.

I really think there’s a case of pudding being seriously over egged here.

from a discussion on modern players being stronger and fitter than their counterparts from years ago, now the best teams from years ago are being smashed 10-0? Nah, not for me.

[Since90+2]

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I really think there’s a case of pudding being seriously over egged here.

from a discussion on modern players being stronger and fitter than their counterparts from years ago, now the best teams from years ago are being smashed 10-0? Nah, not for me.

Look at it another way. Would the current Hibs team beat the Lisbon Lions? I think we would. Even if you say they would win it would likely be a close game.

Now what do you think the score would be if this Hibs team player Bayern Munich?

[calumhibee1]

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I really think there’s a case of pudding being seriously over egged here.

from a discussion on modern players being stronger and fitter than their counterparts from years ago, now the best teams from years ago are being smashed 10-0? Nah, not for me.

Or a case of it being massively under egged.

How many talented players have came through at Hibs but don’t have the physical attributes to make it? Say Sam Stanton. Great technique, slow as a week in the jail and too weak. Never made it.

Ivan Sproule - fast as ****, poor technique for this level, exceptional.

Physical ability plays a huge part in what makes a footballer, and footballers have improved immensely physically.

[Keith_M]

I remember an interview with Jim Craig (I think) in the late 90s and he was asked who would win in a game between the Celtc team that had just won the league and the Lisbon Lions.

He said something along the lines of "It would be close, The Lions would probably edge it 2-1. But, to be fair, we're all in our fifties now"

[calumhibee1]

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Look at it another way. Would the current Hibs team beat the Lisbon Lions? I think we would. Even if you say they would win it would likely be a close game.

Now what do you think the score would be if this Hibs team player Bayern Munich?

Exactly. I don’t think anyone on here would suggest that the likes of the Lisbon Lions would take double figures off Hibs now. I think everyone would accept that there’s a very real possibility Bayern would. Yet when it comes down to romantically recalling individuals were suggesting that the top level back then was similar or even better than now. It doesn’t really add up.

[BILLYHIBS]

Natural ability goes a long way regardless of era

The best player Pat Stanton/Jock Stein played with/saw was Willie Hamilton and he liked a wee swally

You can only beat what’s put in front of you

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Look at it another way. Would the current Hibs team beat the Lisbon Lions? I think we would. Even if you say they would win it would likely be a close game.

Now what do you think the score would be if this Hibs team player Bayern Munich?

curent Hibs vs current Bayern. We probably lose 0-6.

current Hibs vs Lisbon lions. I think Celtic 67 wins.

celtic 67 vs Bayern 2020? Probable Bayern win. Never 10-0.

[calumhibee1]

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curent Hibs vs current Bayern. We probably lose 0-6.

current Hibs vs Lisbon lions. I think Celtic 67 wins.

celtic 67 vs Bayern 2020? Probable Bayern win. Never 10-0.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can watch Celtic 67 and think they’d compete with that Bayern team but each to their own.

[Since90+2]

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curent Hibs vs current Bayern. We probably lose 0-6.

current Hibs vs Lisbon lions. I think Celtic 67 wins.

celtic 67 vs Bayern 2020? Probable Bayern win. Never 10-0.

This thread is going off on a tangent slightly but Bayern Munich (if they were motivated) would beat us more than 6-0. They recently beat Barcelona 8-2.

They would hammer the Lions, if it was any less than 5-0 id be amazed.

[calumhibee1]

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This thread is going off on a tangent slightly but Bayern Munich (if they were motivated) would beat us more than 6-0. They recently beat Barcelona 8-2.

They would hammer the Lions, if it was any less than 5-0 id be amazed.

I honestly think Bayern would take nearly 10 off us and I don’t even think that reflects badly on us by saying that

[HoboHarry]

Daft discussion topics and fans on fitba forums making it up as they go along. It'll never catch on...........

[calumhibee1]

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Daft discussion topics and fans on fitba forums making it up as they go along. It'll never catch on...........

To be fair, I’ve quite enjoyed this thread

It’ll never come to an agreement but that’s all part of the fun.

[DH1875]

Bayern have beaten Schalke 8-0 and Athletico Madrid 4-0 In the last month lol. We'd do well keeping it at 10.

[Sammy7nil]

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Current Hibs team would hammer the Tornadoes. Probably about 5 or 6 nil.

Similarly if you took the Lisbon Lions and put them against the current European Champions they would be absolutely annihilated. Would probably be about 10-0.

I love it when people are SO certain about something that could never be proven or disproven. All I can say I is a wish you were a bookmaker 😂😁

I suppose that is why part time teams now always get scudded of their Premiership opponents and obviously they never ever score because the Premiership team is so far ahead of them in fitness and ability. Oh wait a minute ?

[Pagan Hibernia]

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This thread is going off on a tangent slightly but Bayern Munich (if they were motivated) would beat us more than 6-0. They recently beat Barcelona 8-2.

They would hammer the Lions, if it was any less than 5-0 id be amazed.

well at least we’ve gone from 10-0 down to 5-0 now so we’re getting a wee bit closer to a consensus

[Since90+2]

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I love it when people are SO certain about something that could never be proven or disproven. All I can say I is a wish you were a bookmaker 😂😁

I suppose that is why part time teams now always get scudded of their Premiership opponents and obviously they never ever score because the Premiership team is so far ahead of them in fitness and ability. Oh wait a minute ?

Nobody can be certain of anything, it's hypothetical.

One thing I am "SO" certain as you put it though is that Bayern Munich would beat Hibs more than 6-0. And I think they'd do that at 70%.

[Sammy7nil]

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Nobody can be certain of anything, it's hypothetical.

One thing I am "SO" certain as you put it though is that Bayern Munich would beat Hibs more than 6-0. And I think they'd do that at 70%.

I agree a motivated BM would score a good few goals against Hibs not sure how many but would have the potential to be embarrassing 🙈. That is an easy comparison to make as we can see the teams. However there really is no way of saying how different generations compare. What you can say is some teams were the best or near the best of their generation and some are not 😁

[Andy74]

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As are Ronaldo and Messi exceptional of their time. If the average players now would probably beat a team of the average players back then it would stand to reason that the exceptional players now would be better than the exceptional then as well. I doubt the difference between the very best and their peers has massively changed. However, I don’t think there’s any doubt that a team of average now would beat average back then as you’d suggest. In fact I’d suggest the Hibs team now would comfortably beat the very best from the 70s and before. They’d physically dominate them. The stats from that link I provided would probably suggest that teams from the 70s had the physical prowess of a part time team - I’d highly doubt part time team players cover less than 7-9km a game for example.

Thinks have massively improved over the last 20 years, again, it would defy logic for that not to be the case. The difference with your Hibs analogy is that Hibs have dropped further and further from the sort of level we were at with Sauzee and Latapy and on top of that, they were playing less than 20 years ago, not 60 like Pele. We were a lot closer to a high level of the footballing hierarchy than we are now and the players we had then reflected that - back then we signed a Champions League winner and France captain, nowadays we sign guys from English League One and League Two, so no, I’m not saying Sauzee and Latapy wouldn’t get in the Hibs team now.

We’re comparing the very best v the very best in different eras. That comparison is comparing very, very good with distinctly average and doesn’t work.

Comparing the best still works though when you can read the attributes Pele had. You think that the physical side of the game would mean the best players from back then just couldn’t hack iit now, even if they were talented.

It is just that the differences aren’t as big as you think. As quoted before if a 34 year old Pele was doing 100m in 11 seconds and jumping 6ft then he is right up there still in physicality as well as ability.

[jgl07]

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How good would Best be in the current virtual non contact football we now play.Some of the younger posters should familiarise themselves with the tackling Pele,Best and Maradonna etc. had to contend with.It was brutal and you virtually had to kill someone before being sent off.You are comparing apples and pears with footballers in 21st Century compared to 20th Century.

Best could dish it out as well as most.

Glyn Pardoe of Manchester City was nearly put out of the game after a tackle by Best in 1970 that broke his leg. At one stage they thought his leg might have to be amputated.

[Austinho]

It’s not just the physical side that has improved over the decades. Each generation has benefitted from watching those before them and learned and improved from that. Even average players now are able to pull off the skills that only the likes of Best could pull off back then - they can just go on YouTube and learn. Even I’ve pulled off a few Cruyff turns. Watching football on TV was nowhere near as widespread in the 50’s/60’s so players like Best had the element of surprise on their side and players didn’t know what was coming.

Defences now are also much more disciplined from decades of tactical analysis - making it much harder for the top players of today to get the better of them. Pele was often involved in 7-5, 6-4 type scorelines, because defence wasn’t taken as seriously back then. Of course this massively enhanced his stats. The fact that Messi and Ronaldo are able to get close to those records in the modern era makes them far better players. And that’s not to take away from what Pele and Best achieved in the context of their era, which was completely groundbreaking at the time.

[BILLYHIBS]

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It’s not just the physical side that has improved over the decades. Each generation has benefitted from watching those before them and learned and improved from that. Even average players now are able to pull off the skills that only the likes of Best could pull off back then - they can just go on YouTube and learn. Even I’ve pulled off a few Cruyff turns. Watching football on TV was nowhere near as widespread in the 50’s/60’s so players like Best had the element of surprise on their side and players didn’t know what was coming.

Defences now are also much more disciplined from decades of tactical analysis - making it much harder for the top players of today to get the better of them. Pele was often involved in 7-5, 6-4 type scorelines, because defence wasn’t taken as seriously back then. Of course this massively enhanced his stats. The fact that Messi and Ronaldo are able to get close to those records in the modern era makes them far better players. And that’s not to take away from what Pele and Best achieved in the context of their era, which was completely groundbreaking at the time.

You still don’t mention Diego Maradona a player that went to a provincial club in a country that prided themselves on their cattenachio defensive style of football and almost single handedly dragged them kicking and screaming to two league titles, one IFA Cup, one Super Cup and one UEFA Cup not to mention his achievements with the Argentinian national team that bettered Lionel Messi’s achievements

Oh incidentally I am firmly in the Pele camp GOAT !

[MWHIBBIES]

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You still don’t mention Diego Maradona a player that went to a provincial club in a country that prided themselves on their cattenachio defensive style of football and almost single handedly dragged them kicking and screaming to two league titles, one IFA Cup, one Super Cup and one UEFA Cup not to mention his achievements with the Argentinian national team that bettered Lionel Messi’s achievements

Oh incidentally I am firmly in the Pele camp GOAT !

Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

Napoli were a decent if unsuccessful italian side until his arrival. A runners up position and a handful of 3rd place finishes in the two decades previous. Not a single league title in their history.

i’d say he brought more than just star quality. They were utterly transformed.

Messi’s statistics are undoubtedly on another level but even he is seemingly powerless to stop the terminal decline of a great Barcelona team that we’re all watching just now after the departure of a number of players who contributed to that success

[MWHIBBIES]

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Napoli were a decent if unsuccessful italian side until his arrival. A runners up position and a handful of 3rd place finishes in the two decades previous. Not a single league title in their history.

i’d say he brought more than just star quality. They were utterly transformed.

Messi’s statistics are undoubtedly on another level but even he is seemingly powerless to stop the terminal decline of a great Barcelona team that we’re all watching just now after the departure of a number of players who contributed to that success

Absolutely, Diego was exactly what Napoli needed. They might have won more if he scored at the rate Messi does.


Messi is older now and Barcelona are a real mess. He's the only reason they've actually still been winning trophies and competing. His statistics are still unbelievable.

[calumhibee1]

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Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

It must be ***** being part of the Argentina World Cup winning squad or these Napoli teams and constantly being told that you didn’t contribute to the titles you won.

It’s an absolute nonsense when it gets suggested that Maradona won they competitions single handedly. He was by far the best player in a pretty decent side. The same logic could be applied for Messi or Ronaldo, both of whom you could put forward a solid argument that without them, Real and Barca wouldn’t have won what they did. Would Real Madrid have won so many Champions Leagues without Ronaldo over the last few years? Impossible to say or course, but I’d suggest not. Doesn’t mean he won them single handedly though.

As an aside, what a horrendous league that must have been to watch. Napoli were top scorers with 41 goals in 30 games. It must have been 1-0 or worse in the vast majority of matches!

[BILLYHIBS]

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Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

Ha Ha!

I actually remembered that when I was typing that was why I empathised ALMOST !

PELE ROOLS!

Did you ever watch the Maradona Movie?

I also feel that the OP just cannot ignore Maradona as he overcame some serious defences which is my point

I will take Maradona’s World Cup over Messi’s goals any day of the week

[Pagan Hibernia]

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As an aside, what a horrendous league that must have been to watch. Napoli were top scorers with 41 goals in 30 games. It must have been 1-0 or worse in the vast majority of matches!

I was actually thinking that myself when I checked wiki on the period. Shocking shortage of goals all round in Italy back then.

who knows, maybe those plodding, tactically inept, alcoholic, chain smoking defenders from the old days really did know what they were doing afterall

[Austinho]

World Cups were the absolute pinnacle when Maradonna was a player - but not held in the same esteem in Messi’s era. Messi has take Argentina to a World Cup Final and 2 Copa America finals so its not like he is miles off Maradonna’s international achievements like you’re making out Billy. On the other hand, Messi’s domestic achievements are absolutely streets ahead of Maradona’s which consists of only 2 top level league titles in his entire career.

Maradonna was a cult figure in an era when nobody rivalled his calibre or personality, but I feel that cult status and nostalgia clouds opinions in debates like this. Messi has a far better career.

[Keith_M]

Has anybody else noticed the age divide in the Messi/Maradona debate?