Greatest player of all time?

[Andy74]

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You honestly think that footballers from 60 years ago are in similar shape to today’s players? The guys at the top level now are like wardrobes with about 5% body fat and the ability to cover 100m in similar times to sprinters.

I don’t disagree with your last point again, but you’re not comparing Pele to players now. You’re comparing a mythical Pele that has all the modern advances that players have now. That Pele has never existed.

You might want to look up some stats on Pele on that front.

Reported from the time that he ran 100m in 11 seconds and had fitness levels comparable to top athletes now.

[Keith_M]

So it's decided then... My Grandad was right and Barney Battles was the greatest player of all time.

[calumhibee1]

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You might want to look up some stats on Pele on that front.

Reported from the time that he ran 100m in 11 seconds and had fitness levels comparable to top athletes now.

Gareth Bale was very close to matching Bolts peak speed in his 9.58 world record when he scored his ET goal against Barca. And that was on grass. That’s the kind of differences we are talking nowadays. That’s a huge difference from 11 seconds.

[Andy74]

Part of an article about a 34 year old Pele:

About Pelé's physical condition and his body, Breil said: “If nature wanted to be generous, it certainly exaggerated with Pelé.”
Pelé and Breil will continue. to work together along with Julio Mazzei, Pelé's friend and adviser who also worki on the Pepsi‐Cola program. The program brings Pelé about $200,000 a year.

Pele can run 100 meters in 11 seconds and jump almost 6 feet high. He jumps earlier than other players to head the ball because he has the ability to hover longer in the air. That split‐second advantage is tremendous in soccer.

“If properly trained, Pele could still be one of the world's 10 best in the decathlon,” said Mazzei. “He can play volleyball and basketball magnificently.”

Pele scores frequently, but the goals he scores are often Overshadowed by the seemingly magical sequencethat precedes them—his uncanny control, his sudden, bursts of acceleration, his instinctive positioning, his inventive passes.

[BILLYHIBS]

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So it's decided then... My Grandad was right and Barney Battles was the greatest player of all time.

Naw Darling Willie Groves was better 😃

[SuperAllyMcleod]

Gordon Smith, end of discussion.

[BILLYHIBS]

Pelé close thread

[Pagan Hibernia]

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You honestly think that footballers from 60 years ago are in similar shape to today’s players? The guys at the top level now are like wardrobes with about 5% body fat and the ability to cover 100m in similar times to sprinters.

I don’t disagree with your last point again, but you’re not comparing Pele to players now. You’re comparing a mythical Pele that has all the modern advances that players have now. That Pele has never existed. This Messi and Ronaldo do exist having taken advantage of all the advances.

no I don’t believe players 60 years ago were in the same shape as today, that’s actually my whole point. I do believe that if players from 60 years ago had the same diet and training and regime as today then they would be in as good shape as today’s players.

[calumhibee1]

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Part of an article about a 34 year old Pele:

About Pelé's physical condition and his body, Breil said: “If nature wanted to be generous, it certainly exaggerated with Pelé.”
Pelé and Breil will continue. to work together along with Julio Mazzei, Pelé's friend and adviser who also worki on the Pepsi‐Cola program. The program brings Pelé about $200,000 a year.

Pele can run 100 meters in 11 seconds and jump almost 6 feet high. He jumps earlier than other players to head the ball because he has the ability to hover longer in the air. That split‐second advantage is tremendous in soccer.

“If properly trained, Pele could still be one of the world's 10 best in the decathlon,” said Mazzei. “He can play volleyball and basketball magnificently.”

Pele scores frequently, but the goals he scores are often Overshadowed by the seemingly magical sequencethat precedes them—his uncanny control, his sudden, bursts of acceleration, his instinctive positioning, his inventive passes.

I think that article can be discredited when it’s going to suggest Pele has some sort of super human hovering power. Gravity would have a thing or two to say about that.

[Andy74]

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Gareth Bale was very close to matching Bolts peak speed in his 9.58 world record when he scored his ET goal against Barca. And that was on grass. That’s the kind of differences we are talking nowadays. That’s a huge difference from 11 seconds.

Peak speed isn’t the same. What does Bale do 100m in? What does he have on his feet?

In any case you’d have to concede we are now talking margins at peak levels and miles away from what you had in mind about comparing what players 50 years ago were capable of.

[Andy74]

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I think that article can be discredited when it’s going to suggest Pele has some sort of super human hovering power. Gravity would have a thing or two to say about that.

He had the ability to hover longer in the air. What’s wrong with saying that? That’s technique and you have to look at the likes of Michael Jordan and Ronaldo to know what is meant by it.

[Since90+2]

Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

[calumhibee1]

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Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

It’s not really. Well, it seems it is, but the debate is a ridiculous one. The argument seems to be that the advances seen in every other sport skipped football for no apparent reason even though it’s one of the richest sports in the world with the money to make all the advances.

[Lancs Harp]

Is the only way you can compare footballers or sportsmen from different eras as the way the impacted their own time? Clearly trying to compare someone from one era to another is extremely difficult and highly subjective as conditions, science etc in which they performed are so difficult to quantify.

Always a good debate/discussion/argument. One most of us have had with a few beers in the pub. Ah the good old days.

[Andy74]

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Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

On average yes, but it is generally down to diet and training and not a leap in human evolution.

However, that isn’t necessarily true for individuals and it is part of the reason we are talking about Pele being unique and perhaps still one of the greatest ever.

Humans were capable of similar levels of speed, strength and fitness. Pele was studied and tested at the time and he was an extremely fit individual.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

it’s not. The debate is whether the players of today would be the same without the physical fitness and dietary improvements of the modern age and whether the players of the past would be the same with them.

[calumhibee1]

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Is the only way you can compare footballers or sportsmen from different eras as the way the impacted their own time? Clearly trying to compare someone from one era to another is extremely difficult and highly subjective as conditions, science etc in which they performed are so difficult to quantify.

Always a good debate/discussion/argument. One most of us have had with a few beers in the pub. Ah the good old days.

The fairest way would probably be to consider who was the furthest ahead of their peers at the time. Although imo that still doesn’t give you the best ever, as much as the fact that modern athletes have advantages over those of yesteryear is unfair on previous generations it’s just the way it is and can’t just be disregarded imo.

[wookie70]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27mTNyPqsw

Pretty easy mate. They both suffered awful tackles.

Not convinced many of those would even be considered bad fouls back in the days of Best and Pele etc. Every week they would have suffered two footed tackles and countless tackles from the rear. Very different eras and the rules now very much favour attacking players

[Andy74]

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It’s not really. Well, it seems it is, but the debate is a ridiculous one. The argument seems to be that the advances seen in every other sport skipped football for no apparent reason even though it’s one of the richest sports in the world with the money to make all the advances.

You are over playing it though. What’s the difference in say 100m times over 50 yrs. It’s about half a second. That’s with better tracks and trainers too.

Taken into football it is nothing.

You had a higher percentage of players that weren’t fit back then I’d say. You can see that even in the last 20 years but the best and fittest - there’s really nothing in it.

[calumhibee1]

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Not convinced many of those would even be considered bad fouls back in the days of Best and Pele etc. Every week they would have suffered two footed tackles and countless tackles from the rear. Very different eras and the rules now very much favour attacking players

The video from the Belgium game that Maradona played in that was apparently so horrific would suggest otherwise.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Not convinced many of those would even be considered bad fouls back in the days of Best and Pele etc. Every week they would have suffered two footed tackles and countless tackles from the rear. Very different eras and the rules now very much favour attacking players

Opponents are just smarter and don't need to maim opponents to stop them.

I'm finding this supposed era of dreadful tackles hard to believe really. Folk going on like there was attempted murder every week. It wasn't that bad.

[calumhibee1]

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Opponents are just smarter and don't need to maim opponents to stop them.

I'm finding this supposed era of dreadful tackles hard to believe really. Folk going on like there was attempted murder every week. It wasn't that bad.

Yup. All these bad challenges but the best players who would have been on the end of them generally didn’t have their careers cut short any more than players do nowadays. And that’s keeping in mind that they didn’t have the medical there is now.

If the tackles were half as bad as described then the best players like Maradona would have been finished before they got started. It seems to be that advancements that have been made in every measurable sport either don’t apply to football or are to be downplayed but the kicking that these guys took is absolutely not being overplayed.. despite the evidence such as Pele playing 800 career games suggesting differently.

[Lancs Harp]

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Opponents are just smarter and don't need to maim opponents to stop them.

I'm finding this supposed era of dreadful tackles hard to believe really. Folk going on like there was attempted murder every week. It wasn't that bad.

There was some truth in it tho MW, defenders did get away with a lot more and going back to my own playing days "let him know you're there son early doors" was the last thing my my coach/manager said to me every week!! ...... and I did. Only ever got booked once!!!!

[A Hi-Bee]

It would appear that Pele was just so special that the Brazil Government slapped a National Asset decree on him which would prevent him being transferred to Europe etc.
He was a freeking National Treasure and just the best player ever; it would seem that we live in this shiney new world where everything recent and new is just so superior to what has gone before. Its almost like a ****ing Valhalla, with nothing ever wrong.

[A Hi-Bee]

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So it's decided then... My Grandad was right and Barney Battles was the greatest player of all time.

Aye and Alf Tupper wis the best ever athlete, no contest.

[Since90+2]

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It would appear that Pele was just so special that the Brazil Government slapped a National Asset decree on him which would prevent him being transferred to Europe etc.
He was a freeking National Treasure and just the best player ever; it would seem that we live in this shiney new world where everything recent and new is just so superior to what has gone before. Its almost like a ****ing Valhalla, with nothing ever wrong.

You could flip your arguement and say players of yesteryear are looked upon more favourably than current players.

I'm guessing you're of an older generation which means you lean towards players who were at their peak when you were younger.

It will be the same in 20 years time and folk in their 20s and 30s now will claim Messi was the best but the younger generation will have a new icon who stakes the claim.

It's a debate that will never be won on either side.

[wookie70]

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The video from the Belgium game that Maradona played in that was apparently so horrific would suggest otherwise.

Maradonna played in an era when tackling was still hard though. Messi and Ronaldo far less so imo. Best and Pele played in a time when players could go right through the back of you to win the ball. Dribbling particularly in the middle of the pitch like Best did would often see two and three tackles in one run that would be considered red cards these days. I do think that the athleticism of modern players makes them more likely to get injured and the forwards back then often had more brains and a better turn of pace to avoid the worst of the tackle. They would get cleared out but they got their feet off the turf.

[A Hi-Bee]

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You could flip your arguement and say players of yesteryear are looked upon more favourably than current players.

I'm guessing you're of an older generation which means you lean towards players who were at their peak when you were younger.

It will be the same in 20 years time and folk in their 20s and 30s now will claim Messi was the best but the younger generation will have a new icon who stakes the claim.

It's a debate that will never be won on either side.

[calumhibee1]

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Maradonna played in an era when tackling was still hard though. Messi and Ronaldo far less so imo. Best and Pele played in a time when players could go right through the back of you to win the ball. Dribbling particularly in the middle of the pitch like Best did would often see two and three tackles in one run that would be considered red cards these days. I do think that the athleticism of modern players makes them more likely to get injured and the forwards back then often had more brains and a better turn of pace to avoid the worst of the tackle. They would get cleared out but they got their feet off the turf.

Come on. Often met with 3 red card worthy tackles at once yet they somehow managed to see out their careers? How is anyone supposed to believe that?

[Andy74]

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You could flip your arguement and say players of yesteryear are looked upon more favourably than current players.

I'm guessing you're of an older generation which means you lean towards players who were at their peak when you were younger.

It will be the same in 20 years time and folk in their 20s and 30s now will claim Messi was the best but the younger generation will have a new icon who stakes the claim.

It's a debate that will never be won on either side.

With certain players it will be right though.

Has anyone seen a better player in his position than Pat Stanton? Would Pat then walk into our team. Exact same fitness? I’d say yes.

We are already 20 years on from Sauzee and Latapy. We might have progressed on the science but the two of them would be first picks now.

George Best in his prime? Plays for Man U now no problem. Cantona would be a first pick.

Things haven’t moved as quickly as folk think.