Greatest player of all time?

[calumhibee1]

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I don’t think any of the goals you mentioned are as iconic as maradonas. It’s just a fact given they are still discussed 35 years later.

It’s pretty irrelevant in terms of messi vs maradona though. For me it comes down to the fact maradona was a leader and the ultimate underdog. He triumphed against England with pure bottle and ability. He transformed Naples and stood up for an impoverished part of Italy against the big Italian northern clubs. He did it by being an incredible football player with an inspirational personality.

It’s counter intuitive to reduce the judgement of players down to statistics. You can’t separate the players from their clubs or their environment. You have to judge them in context. Maradona was booted to bits in 1982 World Cup, came back and won it. He was snapped by goikoetxea and returned as the greatest ever.

Even now watching clips of maradona is enchanting. I watch messi and I think “meh”. You see him wilting after Andy Robertson winds him up. You see him sulking around in world cups waiting for something to happen for him. Then you see the ludicrous transfer saga this summer. He just seems like another footballer to be honest.

I doubt Maradona will be surpassed, maybe because he was great at the right time and there is an over saturation of football now that means players like that can’t exist.

Messi’s goals werent scored 35 years ago so I’m not sure the fact Messi’s aren’t been discussed 35 years after the fact (yet) really means anything at all.

If you think Maradona was booted to bits then watch the Classico when the whole Real Madrid team near enough could have been sent off for halving Messi. This myth that players only got kicked back in the day is silly. And they weren’t getting kicked by guys with the power and athleticism of footballers now.

I know it’s all about opinions but the fact you watch Messi and go “meh” is utterly perplexing.

[calumhibee1]

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Your alternative stats don’t look that accurate. 173 official games over about 20 years?

He also had 77 international goals in about 90 games.

They are admittedly off Wikipedia but I’d suspect Pele’s Wikipedia is fairly accurate. Amendments to his page wouldn’t last as long as adding 100 goals to Joe Newell’s would

[Andy74]

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They are admittedly off Wikipedia but I’d suspect Pele’s Wikipedia is fairly accurate. Amendments to his page wouldn’t last as long as adding 100 goals to Joe Newell’s would

His Wikipedia shows official Santos games if you discount friendlies and tours as 470 goals in 412 games.

[calumhibee1]

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His Wikipedia shows official Santos games if you discount friendlies and tours as 470 goals in 412 games.

That’s in the Campeonato Paulista - a tournament played within Sao Paolo, not the top flight of Brazilian football.

His record in the Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A which is the top of the Brazilian league system is 100 goals in 173 games.

[660]

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Messi’s goals werent scored 35 years ago so I’m not sure the fact Messi’s aren’t been discussed 35 years after the fact (yet) really means anything at all.

If you think Maradona was booted to bits then watch the Classico when the whole Real Madrid team near enough could have been sent off for halving Messi. This myth that players only got kicked back in the day is silly. And they weren’t getting kicked by guys with the power and athleticism of footballers now.

I know it’s all about opinions but the fact you watch Messi and go “meh” is utterly perplexing.

Haha if you think messi has suffered what Maradona did in 1982. Watch the goikoetxea challenge. Watch Argentina vs Belgium. How much protection does Messi get from referees compared to Maradona. Its not a myth - it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has watched football from both eras.

[calumhibee1]

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Haha if you think messi has suffered what Maradona did in 1982. Watch the goikoetxea challenge. Watch Argentina vs Belgium. How much protection does Messi get from referees compared to Maradona. Its not a myth - it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has watched football from both eras.

It’s a myth that players don’t get kicked now. Whether it was worse or not is another debate, but Messi still gets booted up and down the pitch regularly - the game I mentioned against Real Madrid was a disgrace - and he’s getting booted by bigger, stronger more powerful guys than whoever was lining up for Belgium in the 80s.

Besides, the fact that the level of defending generally consisted of trying to boot someone says a lot about the standard of defending.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Haha if you think messi has suffered what Maradona did in 1982. Watch the goikoetxea challenge. Watch Argentina vs Belgium. How much protection does Messi get from referees compared to Maradona. Its not a myth - it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has watched football from both eras.

Felipe Luis and Sergio Ramos have done challenges on Messi as bad as anything Maradona got.

[660]

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It’s a myth that players don’t get kicked now. Whether it was worse or not is another debate, but Messi still gets booted up and down the pitch regularly - and he’s getting booted by bigger, stronger more powerful guys than whoever was lining up for Belgium in the 80s.

Besides, the fact that the level of defending generally consisted of trying to boot someone says a lot about the standard of defending.

lol the entire point of this argument is whether Maradona or messi suffered worse challenges. To suggest one of the best Belgian defences in their history was below some imagined standard of today’s football is arrogant revisionist pish.

[660]

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Felipe Luis and Sergio Ramos have done challenges on Messi as bad as anything Maradona got.

Link the challenge on messi comparable to goikoetxeas on maradona thanks.

[The 90+2]

Zidane or Maradona.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Link the challenge on messi comparable to goikoetxeas on maradona thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27mTNyPqsw

Pretty easy mate. They both suffered awful tackles.

[calumhibee1]

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lol the entire point of this argument is whether Maradona or messi suffered worse challenges. To suggest one of the best Belgian defences in their history was below some imagined standard of today’s football is arrogant revisionist pish.

Having watched the first 3 minutes of a 9 minute montage of Maradona from the Belgium game in question and not even seeing a foul on him I can’t say I can see where this viciousness comes from.

To suggest that football has somehow been the only sport not to have improved in the last 40 years is the only thing that’s pish in this debate. Defenders nowadays would stroll it against players from the 80s and earlier. They wouldn’t even need to kick them. They’d brush them aside like schoolboys.

[lyonhibs]

It's Diego Maradona in my opinion. Could any of the rest of them done what he did with an early 80's Napoli in that era? Probably not.

[Hibrandenburg]

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On a similar theme, would someone who revolutionised their position (going by what I’ve read and the little footage of him) like Yashin did in goals be worthy of inclusion in the debate?

Good point, he was in a decent Soviet team that would never have enjoyed the success they enjoyed if he wasn't between the sticks.

[Juice-Terry]

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Have I? I said Maradona wins on international success. It does come down to slim margins, though.

Its not being selective when I say Messi has over twice as many career goals from the same position. He has scored more goals JUST in the league than Maradona did in his career. Thats not a slim margin.

What exactly have I twisted and ignored?

Great quote. Doubt he actually believes it, though.

Seriously, you talk more ***** than anyone else on this board.

[DH1875]

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If there was an award for twisting, ignoring and selectively choosing facts and statistics, then you've definitely won.




Oh and here's a wee quote for you...


"Even if I played for a million years, I'd never come close to Maradona. Not that I'd want to anyway. He's the greatest there's ever been."


—Lionel Messi

What does Lionel Messi know. His icon growing up was Pablo Aimar and he is his favourite ever player Even now when they see/meet each other Messi is like a wee boy, star struck. It's actually an amazing thing to see. Would think it would be other way around and shows Messi is human after all.

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Agree with those who say it's a pointless argument as you can't compare across the eras. We all have views though. For me it's George Best by a mile. Left footed, right footed, great header of a ball, heavy pitches, heavy balls, fantastic dribbler, could (and did) ride brutal tackles. If he'd played for a top International side there would be no argument. The greatest!

While I don't think he is the greatest can you imagine if Best played for the great Brazilian teams or great Dutch teams of the past. Amazing.

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Zidane or Maradona.

While Zidane was a fantastic player he's not even in the running for me.

[SaulGoodman]

Joe Newell

[MWHIBBIES]

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Seriously, you talk more ***** than anyone else on this board.

Oh right, you disagree with me so you just post abuse. Nice.

[Haymaker]

Robin Friday

[Since452]

Joe Newell

[The Spaceman]

Lionel Messi followed very closely by Cristiano Ronaldo. Their stats are absolutely incredible in an era where defenders, teams and clubs as a whole are so, so, so much more finely tuned than those Maradona, Pelé etc faced. Prime Leo Messi is the greatest player ever to grace this earth.

[Hiber-nation]

I'll stick with Pele. There's not as much footage of him obviously but as 12 year olds we were just in awe of him, we'd never seen anything like it.

Messi and Ronaldo scored better goals against better opposition, were fitter, faster and stronger but Pele's still my man. Maradona was unbelievable, yes but that drugged up celebration in USA 94 taints him a wee bit

[Lancs Harp]

Lets face it we could argue the merits of Pele v Maradonna v Messi v Ronaldo v Cruff v Beckenbauer etc etc for ever more. I'd simply say fantastic talent. If I had to pick it would probably be Pele but there's an argument for all these great players.

Roy Race should be in there as well.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Having watched the first 3 minutes of a 9 minute montage of Maradona from the Belgium game in question and not even seeing a foul on him I can’t say I can see where this viciousness comes from.

To suggest that football has somehow been the only sport not to have improved in the last 40 years is the only thing that’s pish in this debate. Defenders nowadays would stroll it against players from the 80s and earlier. They wouldn’t even need to kick them. They’d brush them aside like schoolboys.

thats because fitness levels and tactics have improved now. If the great players from the past played today they’d also be as fit as everyone else and as tactically aware too.

the greatest players could play in any era and that’s always been the case. Best, Pele, Maradona and Cruyff would still dominate football, along with Messi and Ronaldo, if they were playing today. Just as Messi and Ronaldo would have in the 1960s and 1970s even if they weren’t as fit as they are today

[calumhibee1]

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thats because fitness levels and tactics have improved now. If the great players from the past played today they’d also be as fit as everyone else and as tactically aware too.

the greatest players could play in any era and that’s always been the case. Best, Pele, Maradona and Cruyff would still dominate football, along with Messi and Ronaldo, if they were playing today. Just as Messi and Ronaldo would have in the 1960s and 1970s even if they weren’t as fit as they are today

I don’t disagree at all with your first statement. But they didn’t have it and as such they weren’t as good as the guys that do.

Saying Pele or Maradona were better because they could have been better had they had more modern training techniques etc is a bit like saying the 100m world record holder from the 50s is actually faster than Usain Bolt based on some weird handicap system.

I disagree massively with your last point though. Pele especially would be woefully out of his depth physically against players now imo. It’s just progress.

[Andy74]

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I don’t disagree at all with your first statement. But they didn’t have it and as such they weren’t as good as the guys that do.

Saying Pele or Maradona were better because they could have been better had they had more modern training techniques etc is a bit like saying the 100m world record holder from the 50s is actually faster than Usain Bolt based on some weird handicap system.

I disagree massively with your last point though. Pele especially would be woefully out of his depth physically against players now imo. It’s just progress.

I’m beginning to think you’re talking about a different Pele.

[calumhibee1]

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I’m beginning to think you’re talking about a different Pele.

Nope, the very same. Much the same as every single athlete from a physically measurable sport would be way out of their depth nowadays, football would be the same. It isn’t immune to it.

Would a 100m athlete from the 50s be able to compete now? Nope.

High jump? Nope

Long distance runner? Nope

Weightlifter? Nope

Swimmer? Nope

Every sport that has measurable statistics for physical ability are streets ahead of where they were in the 50s/60s/70s/80s. Footballers haven’t somehow managed to avoid all of those physical improvements - if anything they’ve probably managed to exploit it more than most sports with the money available in football. I’m sure there was even a stat that Bales top speed in his extra time goal against Barca was faster than Usain Bolts peak in his 9.58.

Guys like Van Dijk, Ramos, Darren McGregor would have the easiest afternoon of their careers against someone with the physical prowess of a 1950s athlete.

Likewise the defenders from these periods wouldn’t be able to implement their fabled kick everything that moves technique against guys like Ronaldo and Messi - they’d never be within touching distance.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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I don’t disagree at all with your first statement. But they didn’t have it and as such they weren’t as good as the guys that do.

Saying Pele or Maradona were better because they could have been better had they had more modern training techniques etc is a bit like saying the 100m world record holder from the 50s is actually faster than Usain Bolt based on some weird handicap system.

I disagree massively with your last point though. Pele especially would be woefully out of his depth physically against players now imo. It’s just progress.

but you have no evidence to support that. Equally I dont have any evidence to say Pele, Maradona and Best would be as good as Messi and Ronaldo today but I don’t believe that the modern age has produced some sort of super human. Evolution is a thing but not in the space of 40 or 50 years. Pele would still be a magnificent player today, if subjected to the same type of training regime, diet etc

[calumhibee1]

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but you have no evidence to support that. Equally I dont have any evidence to say Pele, Maradona and Best would be as good as Messi and Ronaldo today but I don’t believe that the modern age has produced some sort of super human. Evolution is a thing but not in the space of 40 or 50 years. Pele would still be a magnificent player today, if subjected to the same type of training regime, diet etc

You honestly think that footballers from 60 years ago are in similar shape to today’s players? The guys at the top level now are like wardrobes with about 5% body fat and the ability to cover 100m in similar times to sprinters.

I don’t disagree with your last point again, but you’re not comparing Pele to players now. You’re comparing a mythical Pele that has all the modern advances that players have now. That Pele has never existed. This Messi and Ronaldo do exist having taken advantage of all the advances.

[Andy74]

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but you have no evidence to support that. Equally I dont have any evidence to say Pele, Maradona and Best would be as good as Messi and Ronaldo today but I don’t believe that the modern age has produced some sort of super human. Evolution is a thing but not in the space of 40 or 50 years. Pele would still be a magnificent player today, if subjected to the same type of training regime, diet etc

Agree. There have been some advances in nutrition and training but this is being hugely overplayed.

Pele in particular was a physical specimen as well as a great footballer. He would most certainly not be of the standard of a lower league player today.