Greatest player of all time?

[EVENTUALLY]

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Gordon Smith 🇳🇬

My dad thought Pele was brilliant, but wait for it...."He couldnae lace Smith's boots".
He also thought Raymond Kopa was a world class player, "He's no in Smith's class but very good"

[660]

Maradona is a god, the rest of the no marks mentioned are merely football players.

[calumhibee1]

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I think that the problem for Messi is that there is not an iconic moment like the '86 World Cup, '58/'70 World Cups and he will fade into the bastion of great players. Similar for R7.

This is the record of a great player who rarely gets a mention in the GOAT category these days and that is where Messi is heading.

played for Real Madrid for 11 years, winning 8 Spanish championships, 1 Spanish Cup, 2 Latin Cups, 5 consecutive Champions Cups (scoring in all the finals he won), 1 Intercontinental Cup, several individual titles including league top scorer 5 times. He scored 418 goals in 510 games, of which 308 goals in 396 official matches (49 goals in 59 matches in the Champions Cup), becoming the best scorer in the history of the club, until that record was surpassed several decades later

Over time he will also remain synonymous with one of the greatest teams of all time [Barcelona under Guadiola] although replacing Pedro and Villa with Cruyff and Pele might have taken it to another level.

So many greats

There’s not an iconic moment in Messi’s career?

[Killiehibbie]

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Maradona is a god, the rest of the no marks mentioned are merely football players.

Could he play in goals?

[660]

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There’s not an iconic moment in Messi’s career?

No not really

[BILLYHIBS]

“George Best couldnae lace ma bits!”

Ally Macleod

[Dr What If?]

It is difficult, its the old chestnut of who these guys were up against....footballers at the top today are well drilled athletes, Messi's success and longevity at the top makes him an obvious candidate....plays against the best every week and still has the best record, year after year. Pele though, he reinvented the game....he brought a flair that the game simply didn't exist before he broke onto the scene. His Ginga style had been blamed for Brazil's failures on the international scene, it was seen as old fashioned....he gave it new life, did it better than anyone had ever done before and got three world cup winners medals as a reward, one as a 17 year old who blew away the opposition in the final. He was to football as to what Elvis was to music.
Then Maradona....at his prime unplayable, he had his issues though. Just like in 1958 where the world cup was about one player, 1986 was all about him....he was a couple of levels above everybody, no single player since has had a mark on a tournament like he did. That is what is probably unfair on Messi, to win a world cup is a huge ask, to do it on your own is impossible (almost).

So who is the best? Sticking with Pele. Genius, yes....success, yes....all the candidates are, but he was also a trail blazer, no one was playing the game like he did, no one could....everyone who has come since can only dream of making the impact he did....no one is going to have a bigger one.

[Barman Stanton]

Maradona for me. Made average teams great. The usual poster trying to belittle his achievements, like he always does when this question pops up!

In truth no one knows though. No point in putting an opinion over as fact.

I think Van Basten would have been talked about as well had he not played his last game at 28.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Maradona for me. Made average teams great. The usual poster trying to belittle his achievements, like he always does when this question pops up!

In truth no one knows though. No point in putting an opinion over as fact.

I think Van Basten would have been talked about as well had he not played his last game at 28.

I haven't belittled his achievements at all. I've posted my opinion on it and I've stayed on topic throughout. You've made 1 post and made a personal jibe at me.

I have compared his achievements to Messi. Maradona wins on international success, no doubt. Anything else, Messi beats him easily. Thats just a fact. Far more goals, far more assists, far more titles.

Maradona was a wonderful player. Probably in the top 10 of all time. I just don't understand how he can be the best when quite a few have had far better careers. I think it is probably to do with the world cup being the main televised games back then and him being great for Argentina. Every time people saw him, he looked amazing.

As you say, its all about opinions. Happy to accept people have their favourites and their own thoughts. That being said, there really isn't much of a sensible argument for Maradona over Messi IMO

[Since452]

Cristiano Ronaldo's header for Juventus was just incredible. Seemed to just float in the air for what seemed like an eternity. He defies logic at times.

[erin go bragh]

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Maradona, imagine if he played now and didn’t have to contend with defenders trying to break his legs at every tackle, he’d walk it.

Could say the same about Pelé and Best .

[The Modfather]

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Beckenbauer for me. Defenders don't get the same acclaim as attacking midfielders or strikers but he was the engine room of the German team that won the World Cup and European Championships as well as leading Bayern Munich to 3 European Cup titles.

He was as elegant as you can get for a defender but watching that German team switch from defensive to offensive when he was on the ball was like watching 2 different teams in one. He was so sovereign on the ball that when he was given the ball at the back the rest of the team was freed up to take up attacking positions meaning the opposition had 10 attacking players to deal with. His driving runs (jogs back then) would split open defences and once he had the ball he would rarely if ever give it away. Many people made comparisons between our Pat Stanton and Beckenbauer, they were definitely similar types of player but Beckenbauer was at least 1 level above him.

On a similar theme, would someone who revolutionised their position (going by what I’ve read and the little footage of him) like Yashin did in goals be worthy of inclusion in the debate?

[wookie70]

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Where is George Best?

George Best would be at the top of my list but that my be my green eye bias. For him not to be in the top 10 is ridiculous. He had it all and managed to have the ball on a string despite playing on ploughed fields with defenders sharpened studs snapping at him on every run. He also headed the ball and was a very good tackler. Add to that he was a superstar out with football far more than Messi or Ronaldo are now. Pele or Maradona would be the only two that would beat Best in my eyes.

[Since90+2]

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I haven't belittled his achievements at all. I've posted my opinion on it and I've stayed on topic throughout. You've made 1 post and made a personal jibe at me.

I have compared his achievements to Messi. Maradona wins on international success, no doubt. Anything else, Messi beats him easily. Thats just a fact. Far more goals, far more assists, far more titles.

Maradona was a wonderful player. Probably in the top 10 of all time. I just don't understand how he can be the best when quite a few have had far better careers. I think it is probably to do with the world cup being the main televised games back then and him being great for Argentina. Every time people saw him, he looked amazing.

As you say, its all about opinions. Happy to accept people have their favourites and their own thoughts. That being said, there really isn't much of a sensible argument for Maradona over Messi IMO

You can't simply judge a players ability on statistics though. Going by your logic I fail to see how you can rate Messi higher than Ronaldo.

Ronaldo has won league titles in England, Spain and Italy
Ronaldo has won more Champions Leagues
Ronaldo has won a major international trophy with his country
Ronaldo has scored over 100 international goals

The only thing Messi would trump Ronaldo on is having won more domestic honours (though all in the one country as opposed to 3 different leagues) and a slightly higher goals to game ratio at club level (but Ronaldo's is better at international level).

[Radium]

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There’s not an iconic moment in Messi’s career?

He is part of one of the greatest teams ever and is a great player. I doubt that his achievements will stand out in 30 to 60 years time. By comparison how often is Di Stefano discussed in these terms.

This is a discussion of brilliant players who have influenced their generation but finding ways to separate them is what drives the debate. Football is full of what ifs, where would Cruyff be if the Dutch had won two world cups in the’70s. They didn’t and he misses out on the top tier.

... if Messi had been Spanish


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[MWHIBBIES]

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You can't simply judge a players ability on statistics though. Going by your logic I fail to see how you can rate Messi higher than Ronaldo.

Ronaldo has won league titles in England, Spain and Italy
Ronaldo has won more Champions Leagues
Ronaldo has won a major international trophy with his country
Ronaldo has scored over 100 international goals

The only thing Messi would trump Ronaldo on is having won more domestic honours (though all in the one country as opposed to 3 different leagues) and a slightly higher goals to game ratio at club level (but Ronaldo's is better at international level).

The difference is, things betwen them are very close. Things between Maradona and Messi aren't. Ronaldo doesn't have double Messis goals.

The differences are quite minor, like 1 CL title. Messi could easily be level on those things when they both retire. I only think Messi is ahead on my personal preference. They are the top 2 IMO with very little between them. Both well ahead of Maradona.

[calumhibee1]

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He is part of one of the greatest teams ever and is a great player. I doubt that his achievements will stand out in 30 to 60 years time. By comparison how often is Di Stefano discussed in these terms.

This is a discussion of brilliant players who have influenced their generation but finding ways to separate them is what drives the debate. Football is full of what ifs, where would Cruyff be if the Dutch had won two world cups in the’70s. They didn’t and he misses out on the top tier.

... if Messi had been Spanish


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I think to say there's not been an iconic moment in Messi's career is absolute nonsense but of course it's all about opinions -

His first ever goal for Barca where he chipped the keeper and Ronaldinho carried him around on his back on celebration as if he was passing on the Barcelona batton.. a moment in which Ronaldinho has said that Messi was already the best player at Barcelona, he was only 17.

There's the goal when he put Boateng on his arse after turning him inside out then chipped Neuer

Header against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal from distance against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal in the Spanish cup final where he beat about 5 players

His hatrick against Real Madrid when he would have been about 19/20

His last minute winner against Real when he held his top up at the Bernebau

His chip across goal in off the bar - one of the best goals there's ever been technique wise IMO

His goal when the defender has just about jumped on his back and he still manages to turn 4 players inside out before firing home - not sure who they were playing, white tops, blue shorts

His near enough carbon copy of Maradonas goal against England

His place in a Barca team winning a treble and being the talisman for that team

I'm sure I could go on for much much longer but to say that Messi hasn't had an iconic moment in his career is utterly laughable to me.

[ekhibee]

As far as the Messi/Ronaldo thing goes, for me people overhype Messi because Ronaldo comes across as being arrogant so people like him less than Messi. Messi was and still is a brilliant player though. That's at club level though. At international level I would actually put Ronaldo higher than Messi at international level, for me he's done more for the Portuguese national team than Messi has for Argentina, but that's just my opinion. Pele and Maradonna, in my opinion, are a stage up from both of them. They were both excellent club players, and were both far better at international level than either Messi or Ronaldo. Both players made hugely significant contributions for their respective international teams which led to World Cup success, in Pele's case when he was still a teenager in his first world cup (in Sweden). Other people will probably point out to the brilliant Garrincha in Pele's early days, and the brilliant 1970 Brazil team, but for me Pele and Marradonna were better than anything since. That's purely my opinion though.

[Since90+2]

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As far as the Messi/Ronaldo thing goes, for me people overhype Messi because Ronaldo comes across as being arrogant so people like him less than Messi. Messi was and still is a brilliant player though. That's at club level though. At international level I would actually put Ronaldo higher than Messi at international level, for me he's done more for the Portuguese national team than Messi has for Argentina, but that's just my opinion. Pele and Maradonna, in my opinion, are a stage up from both of them. They were both excellent club players, and were both far better at international level than either Messi or Ronaldo. Both players made hugely significant contributions for their respective international teams which led to World Cup success, in Pele's case when he was still a teenager in his first world cup (in Sweden). Other people will probably point out to the brilliant Garrincha in Pele's early days, and the brilliant 1970 Brazil team, but for me Pele and Marradonna were better than anything since. That's purely my opinion though.

The thing is though the top level of club football these days is probably higher quality than international level.

For instance that Bayern Munich team that just won the Champions League I would fancy to beat any international side.

[calumhibee1]

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The thing is though the top level of club football these days is probably higher quality than international level.

For instance that Bayern Munich team that just won the Champions League I would fancy to beat any international side.

Bayern Munich would wipe the floor with every international side imo.

I don’t think there’s an international side that would get past the last 8 of the Champions League. Using France as current world champions as a yard stick, I don’t think they’re as good as Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real or Barca.

[Since90+2]

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Bayern Munich would wipe the floor with every international side imo.

I don’t think there’s an international side that would get past the last 8 of the Champions League. Using France as current world champions as a yard stick, I don’t think they’re as good as Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real or Barca.

Player wise there isn't much in it but in terms of shape, coaching and tactical awareness club sides are miles ahead. That's not a shock though as they spend about 90% of their team coached at a club side compared to a tiny amount at international level.

That's why the whole Maradona/Pele argument done it at international level therefore they are better doesn't stack up. The Champions League as it currently is would be the highest standard of football the game has seen.

[660]

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I think to say there's not been an iconic moment in Messi's career is absolute nonsense but of course it's all about opinions -

His first ever goal for Barca where he chipped the keeper and Ronaldinho carried him around on his back on celebration as if he was passing on the Barcelona batton.. a moment in which Ronaldinho has said that Messi was already the best player at Barcelona, he was only 17.

There's the goal when he put Boateng on his arse after turning him inside out then chipped Neuer

Header against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal from distance against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal in the Spanish cup final where he beat about 5 players

His hatrick against Real Madrid when he would have been about 19/20

His last minute winner against Real when he held his top up at the Bernebau

His chip across goal in off the bar - one of the best goals there's ever been technique wise IMO

His goal when the defender has just about jumped on his back and he still manages to turn 4 players inside out before firing home - not sure who they were playing, white tops, blue shorts

His near enough carbon copy of Maradonas goal against England

His place in a Barca team winning a treble and being the talisman for that team

I'm sure I could go on for much much longer but to say that Messi hasn't had an iconic moment in his career is utterly laughable to me.

None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

[MWHIBBIES]

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None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

Do you prefer the guy who scores 10 iconic goals a season on the one who scores 30 goals a season?

How iconic something is is totally subjective.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

is it not the case though that there are few truly ‘iconic’ moments in the game anymore due to the out and out saturation coverage of football and the digital age where people can instantly see said moments over and over again within seconds of them happening?

in the old days of very little live football and no YouTube it was easier for things to become iconic in my opinion

[Sudds_1]

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Pelé. Even his near misses are legendary.

Always renember when he dummied the goalie...i still watch replays hoping it goes in!

[calumhibee1]

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None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

None of these are iconic goals even though some of them are in cup finals etc yet the goals you’ve mentioned are in a cup quarter final and you’re holding them up as some of the most iconic/best moments in football history..

Every one of the clips listed you’ll see over and over again on the television. The Bayern goal and the one where he holds his strip aloft especially you must see every other week on television. That’s because they were iconic, there’s no other reason to keep showing them.

Also, one goal against Getafe, how many in that list against some of the biggest teams in the word/in cup finals etc?

[Just_Jimmy]

Ronaldo has won stuff in every league he's played in and been a stand out doing so.

his form for Utd 07 was unreal.
he basically won real stuff single handed.
he's delivered for juve when loads said he was finished.

like wise Messi is incredible.

everyone says Pele but they probably saw 1-5% of his career, most of his goals haven't even been confirmed.

modern day players do it under incredible scrutiny and TV analysis and still show up every week.

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[calumhibee1]

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Ronaldo has won stuff in every league he's played in and been a stand out doing so.

his form for Utd 07 was unreal.
he basically won real stuff single handed.
he's delivered for juve when loads said he was finished.

like wise Messi is incredible.

everyone says Pele but they probably saw 1-5% of his career, most of his goals haven't even been confirmed.

modern day players do it under incredible scrutiny and TV analysis and still show up every week.

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Peles record is a nonsense. Heavily inflated by 470 goals in 412 games coming in a regional Brazilian tournament.

His record in the actual Brazilian league is nowhere near as impressive - 100 goals in 173 games. Still good of course and I’m sure he was a great player but his insistence on counting everything short of goals in training makes it very difficult to take his record seriously for me.

[Andy74]

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Peles record is a nonsense. Heavily inflated by 470 goals in 412 games coming in a regional Brazilian tournament.

His record in the actual Brazilian league is nowhere near as impressive - 100 goals in 173 games. Still good of course and I’m sure he was a great player but his insistence on counting everything short of goals in training makes it very difficult to take his record seriously for me.

Your alternative stats don’t look that accurate. 173 official games over about 20 years?

He also had 77 international goals in about 90 games.

[660]

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None of these are iconic goals even though some of them are in cup finals etc yet the goals you’ve mentioned are in a cup quarter final and you’re holding them up as some of the most iconic/best moments in football history..

Every one of the clips listed you’ll see over and over again on the television. The Bayern goal and the one where he holds his strip aloft especially you must see every other week on television. That’s because they were iconic, there’s no other reason to keep showing them.

Also, one goal against Getafe, how many in that list against some of the biggest teams in the word/in cup finals etc?

I don’t think any of the goals you mentioned are as iconic as maradonas. It’s just a fact given they are still discussed 35 years later.

It’s pretty irrelevant in terms of messi vs maradona though. For me it comes down to the fact maradona was a leader and the ultimate underdog. He triumphed against England with pure bottle and ability. He transformed Naples and stood up for an impoverished part of Italy against the big Italian northern clubs. He did it by being an incredible football player with an inspirational personality.

It’s counter intuitive to reduce the judgement of players down to statistics. You can’t separate the players from their clubs or their environment. You have to judge them in context. Maradona was booted to bits in 1982 World Cup, came back and won it. He was snapped by goikoetxea and returned as the greatest ever.

Even now watching clips of maradona is enchanting. I watch messi and I think “meh”. You see him wilting after Andy Robertson winds him up. You see him sulking around in world cups waiting for something to happen for him. Then you see the ludicrous transfer saga this summer. He just seems like another footballer to be honest.

I doubt Maradona will be surpassed, maybe because he was great at the right time and there is an over saturation of football now that means players like that can’t exist.