Taking the Knee

[Scouse Hibee]

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Maybe you didn't even realise you've taken a Rupert Murdoch strategy against someone who took an opposite view to your 'mason' friends.

No I hadn't taken class A drugs. A News of the World strategy Scouse.

What has beset you?

I never mentioned Class A drugs 😂

You really are a bizarre chap, quite amusing at times. If only you could see the irony of your posts. YOU are part of the very problem you describe in nearly every post I have read from you. Have a think about that!

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Scouse Hibee]

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Do you think that perhaps, using your logic, impact wise, we should gaffer tape over the slogan on the front of our strip at the end of this year perhaps.That is clearly me being rhetorical.

BIG G

You know you might have a point, in general any notice, slogan, advertisement or action becomes almost invisible after a period of times and needs refreshed to be noticed or make the desired impact again. Remind me, what’s on the front of our strip again?
That’s my point and logic, of course if you don’t agree that’s fine.

[Gloucester Hibs]

The Qatar World Cup in 2 years time will be an interesting one; a nation that still deploys actual slavery. Fully support taking a knee but this is where football ties itself in knots IMO.

[hibee]

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The Qatar World Cup in 2 years time will be an interesting one; a nation that still deploys actual slavery. Fully support taking a knee but this is where football ties itself in knots IMO.

Totally agree, it takes these slaves around two years to pay off their debt to the company employing them before they start earning and that’s if they are one of the “lucky” ones who actually receive their wages.

I don’t understand why we don’t hear anyone protesting about this on social media, the World Cup will go ahead as planned and FIFA will enjoy spending their money without a second thought for the thousands of people who’s lives have been ruined or lost.

[wookie70]

It may have lost some impact but it still sends a message and by keeping it going at least a message is being sent. Keep taking the knee until another better or more effective way of sending the message is found.

I love the saying " We are all Jock Tamson's bairns" and that could be something that could be incorporated into a particularly Scottish message. It is cheesy but the players could hold a banner when they do the line up in front of the stand and then go on to take the knee.

Something as simple as the players taking the knee in a line or a circle with both teams mixed (Team A player, Team B player, Team A player etc) and together would send a stronger message than just kneeling for a second or two in formation. In short keep it but change it slightly to give commentators something different to say and to make the message stronger.

[Andy74]

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It may have lost some impact but it still sends a message and by keeping it going at least a message is being sent. Keep taking the knee until another better or more effective way of sending the message is found.

I love the saying " We are all Jock Tamson's bairns" and that could be something that could be incorporated into a particularly Scottish message. It is cheesy but the players could hold a banner when they do the line up in front of the stand and then go on to take the knee.

Something as simple as the players taking the knee in a line or a circle with both teams mixed (Team A player, Team B player, Team A player etc) and together would send a stronger message than just kneeling for a second or two in formation. In short keep it but change it slightly to give commentators something different to say and to make the message stronger.

My question would still be what it is about football where the audience needs this message every game and whether that is actually effective or just becomes totally lost.

I get that we have an audience but the point has been clearly made by the sport as a whole.

I don’t get it when I start work, go shopping, watch TV shows (in the main).

It’s a game and shouldn’t necessarily be solving all the world’s issues all the time.

Far more important to ensure we are robust in ensuring racism isn’t tolerated and that the sport is accessible to all rather than an ongoing token on a specific movement for how long?

[DH1875]

First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

Hibs Irish origins matter to me but only inwardly and I would never even think about bringing an Irish flag to a game. There’s just no need.

Catholicism doesn’t even come in to my thinking. I’ve never ever thought of Hibs as a ‘Catholic’ club

[matty_f]

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My question would still be what it is about football where the audience needs this message every game and whether that is actually effective or just becomes totally lost.

I get that we have an audience but the point has been clearly made by the sport as a whole.

I don’t get it when I start work, go shopping, watch TV shows (in the main).

It’s a game and shouldn’t necessarily be solving all the world’s issues all the time.

Far more important to ensure we are robust in ensuring racism isn’t tolerated and that the sport is accessible to all rather than an ongoing token on a specific movement for how long?

If you get that football has an audience then you can see why it can be used for good? Football also has a racism problem, whether folk want to look that in the face or not.

The argument that 'other places don't do it, so why should football?' is back to front. The argument should be 'football is doing it, so why aren't these other places?'

[FilipinoHibs]

I think we have shown our solidarity with BLM, universally across the top league in Scotland. This has been heartening. Also, we have had show racism the red card for sometime. Racist views are only a very small minority amongst the fans of most clubs in Scotland. Time to move on as the knee is losing its impact. End of October as people suggested as this month black history month.

[Andy74]

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If you get that football has an audience then you can see why it can be used for good? Football also has a racism problem, whether folk want to look that in the face or not.

The argument that 'other places don't do it, so why should football?' is back to front. The argument should be 'football is doing it, so why aren't these other places?'

Football is doing it. Every game. I don’t think it needs done in perpetuity particularly when it it is a societal problem and it is out of scale already on what others are doing.

It is the real actions that are being taken which will make the real change. As a gesture I think this has run its course.

[matty_f]

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Football is doing it. Every game. I don’t think it needs done in perpetuity particularly when it it is a societal problem and it is out of scale already on what others are doing.

It is the real actions that are being taken which will make the real change. As a gesture I think this has run its course.

The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.

[matty_f]

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I think we have shown our solidarity with BLM, universally across the top league in Scotland. This has been heartening. Also, we have had show racism the red card for sometime. Racist views are only a very small minority amongst the fans of most clubs in Scotland. Time to move on as the knee is losing its impact. End of October as people suggested as this month black history month.

Do you think you're best placed to say when it's run its course?

"Ok lads, we've done the token gesture now, they've made their point, can we wrap it up now?"

[mutley]

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Aye it is becoming personal when you argue against my rightful catholic Hibs/Celtic minded posts by saying you have 'masonic' friends.

Masons are most normally bitter Rangers/Hearts anti catholic anti Hibs/Celtic.

I have many truthful stories of good folk being denied life optimum opportunities here in Scotland for the crime of being a Catholic or not one of them Masons/Rangers/Hearts.

Thankfully, Independence will reset that.

I just though i would try and clarify something here. You seem to have a "thing" against all things Masonic. Now then, I bet you have no idea how many Freemasons attend Easter Road? because I know a LOT.

And usually this drivel comes from someone who has absolutely no understanding what the Masons area actually about.

[mutley]

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First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

Yes correct, I know several catholic masons, in fact you can follow ANY religion to join, I also know Jewish and Islamic Freemasons.

[EI255]

If we're being hyper critical here then some managers don't actually take the knee. They mimic it because they don't want to get their suit trousers knees dirty. Fact.

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[stuart-farquhar]

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I just though i would try and clarify something here. You seem to have a "thing" against all things Masonic. Now then, I bet you have no idea how many Freemasons attend Easter Road? because I know a LOT.

And usually this drivel comes from someone who has absolutely no understanding what the Masons area actually about.

I'd like to know what they do. Please tell me. PM if you like.

[Dalianwanda]

There’s a danger of looking at the finger when pointing to the moon. We get caught up in the act rather than what it represents. This has to stay out there & we have to keep speaking about it or nothing will change. Even at this stage it’s keeping the conversation going but if the conversation is around the action rather than intention maybe it’s time for another approach.

[Risboro Hibby]

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If we're being hyper critical here then some managers don't actually take the knee. They mimic it because they don't want to get their suit trousers knees dirty. Fact.

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This is where you have to feel sorry for Roy Hodgson. The poor guy tries to take the knee but at his age really struggles to get up again. Still I am not too far away from that problem myself

[hibby rae]

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First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

No one has ever said they don't, but some lives are discriminated against more, and are under threat more, historically and in the present day. And they are the ones that need allies.

[Shrekko]

The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

[Keith_M]

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Next you'll be saying anti catholicism here in Scotland isn't or hasn't ever been a thing . Its been 100 per cent more of a discriminatory historic murderous issue than racism for many many a year. Nae worries Scouse. You go and have a cup of tea with your mason fiends.

Could you please stop trolling.

[jacomo]

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My question would still be what it is about football where the audience needs this message every game and whether that is actually effective or just becomes totally lost.

I get that we have an audience but the point has been clearly made by the sport as a whole.

I don’t get it when I start work, go shopping, watch TV shows (in the main).

It’s a game and shouldn’t necessarily be solving all the world’s issues all the time.

Far more important to ensure we are robust in ensuring racism isn’t tolerated and that the sport is accessible to all rather than an ongoing token on a specific movement for how long?

It’s political because in America where all this started, it has become part of the culture war and Colin Kapernick lost his job.

So, well done football. Maybe folk are getting bored of it but don’t point the finger at players taking the knee - blame the context in which players feel they need to do so.

Life is politics. Professing no interest in politics is a political decision.

[matty_f]

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The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

Grim.

[Vault Boy]

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The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

I don't doubt that for a second. I won't even check, as it'll only serve to anger me.

Conversely, there's nothing untoward on the Twitter equivalent. I think that perhaps speaks for the difference in user demographics, as well, perhaps, that Facebook functionally lends itself more closely to the layout of a forum than Twitter does.

Either way, they exist absolutely everywhere within society and seem to be sincerely unaware that they are part of the reason that groups like SRTRC Scotland need to exist.

[delbert]

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Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

Sorry but what did taking the knee actually accomplish ? I was already aware that racism is abhorrent and vile, so how exactly was it ever all that effective ?

[jacomo]

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Sorry but what did taking the knee actually accomplish ? I was already aware that racism is abhorrent and vile, so how exactly was it ever all that effective ?

It’s about highlighting systemic bias against people with different colour skin. Obviously Covid is dominating everything at the moment but I know a number of companies who are recognising that they need to change how they operate, so it is achieving change. I guess it’s not aimed at you.

[matty_f]

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It’s about highlighting systemic bias against people with different colour skin. Obviously Covid is dominating everything at the moment but I know a number of companies who are recognising that they need to change how they operate, so it is achieving change. I guess it’s not aimed at you.

I think it's served a number of purposes, it's given people the opportunity to show solidarity with the movement, and it's encouraged a shift in tone where you're hearing more that it's not enough to just not be a racist, you need to be anti-racist - it requires action.

[Andy74]

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I think it's served a number of purposes, it's given people the opportunity to show solidarity with the movement, and it's encouraged a shift in tone where you're hearing more that it's not enough to just not be a racist, you need to be anti-racist - it requires action.

I don't think any of that has specifically been achieved by taking the knee at football games though. I don't think anyone would be questioning the wider movement (although some have issues with the actual BLM group) just whether this gesture at every game is still something that is having any impact.

Racism is unfortunately likely to be an issue all of our lives - is that how long this gesture should go on for or should it now be progressed in other ways?

[matty_f]

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I don't think any of that has specifically been achieved by taking the knee at football games though. I don't think anyone would be questioning the wider movement (although some have issues with the actual BLM group) just whether this gesture at every game is still something that is having any impact.

Racism is unfortunately likely to be an issue all of our lives - is that how long this gesture should go on for or should it now be progressed in other ways?

It's maybe not had the impact you were looking for yet. Maybe it does need to go on indefinitely?

There's a widely accepted line now that consistency is better than intensity, so having multiple different gestures is less effective than consistently making the same gesture.

The fact that racism is likely to be with us all our lives makes it more necessary to stand against it, not less.

So long as us white guys don't get bored of it though, eh?