Taking the Knee

[Andy74]

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It's maybe not had the impact you were looking for yet. Maybe it does need to go on indefinitely?

There's a widely accepted line now that consistency is better than intensity, so having multiple different gestures is less effective than consistently making the same gesture.

The fact that racism is likely to be with us all our lives makes it more necessary to stand against it, not less.

So long as us white guys don't get bored of it though, eh?

Isn’t it the white guys who’s behaviour it is looking to change? In that sense yes it is a consideration that a prolonged gesture starts to be at best diluted and at worst something that turns people against the message.

[matty_f]

https://twitter.com/livifcofficial/s...038256128?s=21

[matty_f]

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Isn’t it the white guys who’s behaviour it is looking to change? In that sense yes it is a consideration that a prolonged gesture starts to be at best diluted and at worst something that turns people against the message.

It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

[Andy74]

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It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our times, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

Les Ferdinand is a black man and this is what he said:

“The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’, but little more than that,” Ferdinand said. “The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.

“What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next 10 years, but see no actual progress made?

“Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game – actions will.”

[Dalianwanda]

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I don't doubt that for a second. I won't even check, as it'll only serve to anger me.

Conversely, there's nothing untoward on the Twitter equivalent. I think that perhaps speaks for the difference in user demographics, as well, perhaps, that Facebook functionally lends itself more closely to the layout of a forum than Twitter does.

Either way, they exist absolutely everywhere within society and seem to be sincerely unaware that they are part of the reason that groups like SRTRC Scotland need to exist.

I’m pretty stunned by some of the comments. Tried to call out one of them but down to his responses guess he’s just trolling.

[Andy74]

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It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

Matty, I also think you are better than putting those sort of words into this when we are talking about whether it will continue to be effective or not.

That is quite obviously miles away from what is being discussed.

[matty_f]

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Les Ferdinand is a black man and this is what he said:

“The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’, but little more than that,” Ferdinand said. “The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.

“What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next 10 years, but see no actual progress made?

“Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game – actions will.”

Yes, and as a black man he spoke for all black men, clearly.

Taking the knee on its own will not bring about change, but taking the knee along with action will help.

[matty_f]

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Matty, I also think you are better than putting those sort of words into this when we are talking about whether it will continue to be effective or not.

That is quite obviously miles away from what is being discussed.

You don't need to be patronising. It's not miles away, it's exactly how it comes across. We're (white guys) kind of fed up with it all now, so can we stop now?

[Scouse Hibee]

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You don't need to be patronising. It's not miles away, it's exactly how it comes across. We're (white guys) kind of fed up with it all now, so can we stop now?

That’s not what’s been said at all on this thread unless I have missed it. Some including myself have questioned wether the action is now having the desired impact. You are miles off with your wording.

[matty_f]

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That’s not what’s been said at all on this thread unless I have missed it. Some including myself have questioned wether the action is now having the desired impact. You are miles off with your wording.

I don’t think I am. I think that’s the undertone to it.

[Scouse Hibee]

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I don’t think I am. I think that’s the undertone to it.

It’s not my undertone but then again I don’t speak for every white man.

[matty_f]

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It’s not my undertone but then again I don’t speak for every white man.

I appreciate that.

[Hiber-nation]

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Les Ferdinand is a black man and this is what he said:

“The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’, but little more than that,” Ferdinand said. “The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.

“What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next 10 years, but see no actual progress made?

“Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game – actions will.”

The authorities should be listening to Les. He's spot on as far as I'm concerned.

[WhileTheChief..]

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Yes, and as a black man he spoke for all black men, clearly.

Taking the knee on its own will not bring about change, but taking the knee along with action will help.

What do you do differently now in your life since the killing of George Floyd?

I mean actions you’ve taken, not just posting online?

It’s easy for anyone to post about how much they care but if you’re not doing anything differently now are you not the same as those who think it’s merely a gesture?

[matty_f]

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What do you do differently now in your life since the killing of George Floyd?

I mean actions you’ve taken, not just posting online?

It’s easy for anyone to post about how much they care but if you’re not doing anything differently now are you not the same as those who think it’s merely a gesture?

A few things. First thing was to look at whether i was just not racist or whether i was anti-racist, i was the former and now I’m more the latter.

I’ve got involved in diversity groups at work, spoken to my kids at length about the issue. I’ve challenged racism where I’ve seen it, including asking friends in WhatsApp groups etc not to share content that could be considered racist because i don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m working from home, so I’m not out and about on the streets doing things , if that’s what you mean, but i have educated myself on the topic to try to understand why the message is important, why things like taking the knee are necessary and to understand the context of BLM.

That’s as well as having online discussions, which are still relevant.

[Scouse Hibee]

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A few things. First thing was to look at whether i was just not racist or whether i was anti-racist, i was the former and now I’m more the latter.

I’ve got involved in diversity groups at work, spoken to my kids at length about the issue. I’ve challenged racism where I’ve seen it, including asking friends in WhatsApp groups etc not to share content that could be considered racist because i don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m working from home, so I’m not out and about on the streets doing things , if that’s what you mean, but i have educated myself on the topic to try to understand why the message is important, why things like taking the knee are necessary and to understand the context of BLM.

That’s as well as having online discussions, which are still relevant.

With regard to your WhatsApp group issues, can I ask how was that received by your friends, did they all observe your wishes, did you lose any friends over it or have you purposely dropped friends because of it.
I ask because I recently had a similar issue, not racist content but something else I didn’t appreciate and found tiresome of receiving.

[hibsbollah]

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It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

I hope you don’t mind me borrowing that last paragraph for the purposes of putting certain people I know back in their box, tremendous

[matty_f]

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With regard to your WhatsApp group issues, can I ask how was that received by your friends, did they all observe your wishes, did you lose any friends over it or have you purposely dropped friends because of it.
I ask because I recently had a similar issue, not racist content but something else I didn’t appreciate and found tiresome of receiving.

It went down better than expected. I posted it across 3 or 4 groups and right away i got messages saying people agreed (on the same groups) and a few more messages in private saying well done for saying it, folk were worried about being seen as a killjoy etc.

If it helps, I can PM you what i sent?

[WhileTheChief..]

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A few things. First thing was to look at whether i was just not racist or whether i was anti-racist, i was the former and now I’m more the latter.

I’ve got involved in diversity groups at work, spoken to my kids at length about the issue. I’ve challenged racism where I’ve seen it, including asking friends in WhatsApp groups etc not to share content that could be considered racist because i don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m working from home, so I’m not out and about on the streets doing things , if that’s what you mean, but i have educated myself on the topic to try to understand why the message is important, why things like taking the knee are necessary and to understand the context of BLM.

That’s as well as having online discussions, which are still relevant.

Fair play then, genuinely.

I’ll be honest, I’ve done nothing differently at all.

I wasn’t a racist then and I’m not now. There is however a narrative, or undertone if you like, which suggests that unless you are now actively doing something against racism that you are part of the problem. I disagree entirely with that.

Bringing it back to the original question, my fear is that if one club, let’s say Hibs, stopped bending the knee, we would be labelled as racist.

I think that’s the only reason it’s still going on. No one wants to be first to step out of line out of fear. That’s not good, no matter how noble the intentions are.

[Scouse Hibee]

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It went down better than expected. I posted it across 3 or 4 groups and right away i got messages saying people agreed (on the same groups) and a few more messages in private saying well done for saying it, folk were worried about being seen as a killjoy etc.

If it helps, I can PM you what i sent?

Yeah if you don’t mind, that would be appreciated. I have dealt with the issue I was having and had to be pretty forceful with one guy in particular who had convinced himself I was joking and couldn’t possibly be offended by some of the stuff he was sending!

[matty_f]

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Yeah if you don’t mind, that would be appreciated. I have dealt with the issue I was having and had to be pretty forceful with one guy in particular who had convinced himself I was joking and couldn’t possibly be offended by some of the stuff he was sending!

Sent it to you, mate.

Happy to share with anyone else in a similar situation.

[Scouse Hibee]

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Sent it to you, mate.

Happy to share with anyone else in a similar situation.

👍

[Mibbes Aye]

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The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.

Great post and last sentence especially.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Great post and last sentence especially.

“Yeah - see now that Black History Month thingy is over let’s forget about this ‘take the knee’ stuff” imagine....

[Rumble de Thump]

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Fair play then, genuinely.

I’ll be honest, I’ve done nothing differently at all.

I wasn’t a racist then and I’m not now. There is however a narrative, or undertone if you like, which suggests that unless you are now actively doing something against racism that you are part of the problem. I disagree entirely with that.

Bringing it back to the original question, my fear is that if one club, let’s say Hibs, stopped bending the knee, we would be labelled as racist.

I think that’s the only reason it’s still going on. No one wants to be first to step out of line out of fear. That’s not good, no matter how noble the intentions are.

It's still going on because PFA Scotland and Show Racism The Red Card planned for it to be done until the end of the Show Racism The Red Card Fornight Of Action. It gives players in lower leagues and women's football the opportunity to show their support and is part of a range of initiatives.

[Jones28]

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The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

It’s awful. I honestly didn’t think we had supporters like that amongst us. Naive on my part.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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It’s awful. I honestly didn’t think we had supporters like that amongst us. Naive on my part.

bad apples in every crop. No support is immune

[Andy74]

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I don’t think I am. I think that’s the undertone to it.

Miles off and frankly pretty uncalled for and not at all in keeping with what I or anyone else has been saying. Lost a lot of respect for you that you've gone down that route and seem to think it is fine.

[Sir David Gray]

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Fair play then, genuinely.

I’ll be honest, I’ve done nothing differently at all.

I wasn’t a racist then and I’m not now. There is however a narrative, or undertone if you like, which suggests that unless you are now actively doing something against racism that you are part of the problem. I disagree entirely with that.

Bringing it back to the original question, my fear is that if one club, let’s say Hibs, stopped bending the knee, we would be labelled as racist.

I think that’s the only reason it’s still going on. No one wants to be first to step out of line out of fear. That’s not good, no matter how noble the intentions are.

Agree with this, good post.

[bigwheel]

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The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.

Matty, it’s a bold uncomfortable message you have taken on this thread. I applaud it. Many will disagree and push back, but the essence of the points you make are so right in my view. Those affected by racism are those who should shape the next steps, not white scottish males.....


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