Women in men’s teams

[calumhibee1]

The Dutch FA have given permission for a woman to sign for a Dutch 4th tier team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53649795

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? I’ve no issues with it in that if they’re good enough then bash on.

Is there a possibility though that this could work against women when it comes to sport? If we use the best female players - say Alex Morgan - nobody would ever have heard of her if she had been playing in mixed teams due to the fact she’d be playing at such a low level. Likewise people like the Williams sisters in tennis - if they were playing in mixed tournaments they’d be struggling to get past the first round the vast majority of the time rather than winning grand slam after grand slam.

Whilst on the surface it looks like the right thing to do, could it do more harm than good for female sports?

[Brightside]

No problem with it. Picked on merit. Would show up the guys that think a good female player wouldn’t hack it a Sunday league team. But no one for a second is suggested they will get to play at a higher level.

[green day]

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The Dutch FA have given permission for a woman to sign for a Dutch 4th tier team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53649795

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? I’ve no issues with it in that if they’re good enough then bash on.

Is there a possibility though that this could work against women when it comes to sport? If we use the best female players - say Alex Morgan - nobody would ever have heard of her if she had been playing in mixed teams due to the fact she’d be playing at such a low level. Likewise people like the Williams sisters in tennis - if they were playing in mixed tournaments they’d be struggling to get past the first round the vast majority of the time rather than winning grand slam after grand slam.

Whilst on the surface it looks like the right thing to do, could it do more harm than good for female sports?

Maybe in a "sport" which does not rely on muscles and physiology - say, snooker or darts?

Any sport where the physical advantage of men over women exists this would be daft and counterproductive.

Obviously there may be exceptions - Serena Williams would still earn a living but not at the same level. In my opinion, Wimbledon has it right - pay the same money for the winners of the event but keep separate competitions.

I am also quite surprised that Dutch women would want this as the unintended consequence potentially removes so many from earning a living from their chosen sport.

[Since452]

Not for me. They'd be at a serious physical disadvantage. Call me sexist if you want but I couldn't imagine going in for a full blooded 50/50 tackle in the pouring rain with a woman with as much force as I would a man. Goes against what's programmed inside. Sure that'll be the case for most men and that isn't fair for anyone or the integrity of the game.

[Keith_M]

If it becomes a widespread practice, the Women's leagues could potentially lose a large number of their best players. It also presents a few logistical challenges, like extra changing rooms.


But if the Dutch FA think it's fair, then why not.

[superfurryhibby]

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No problem with it. Picked on merit. Would show up the guys that think a good female player wouldn’t hack it a Sunday league team. But no one for a second is suggested they will get to play at a higher level.

I'm all for equality and would have had no problems playing against a woman during my own playing days but results when woman's teams have played against mens /juveniles teams suggest that decent woman players would struggle with the physicality? That's my opinion, not sure why it would show me or anyone else up though?

[bingo70]

Would it not be de-valuing the woman’s game if they start losing their best players to men’s football?

[Since90+2]

Why not? True equality is putting men and women together and players being picked purely on ability rather than being male or female.

[jonny]

Was there not a Swedish international female player signed for a Serie B (might've been Serie C) team a few years ago. I don't think she played a single game.
I'm with 452 on this one, it's not for me.

[calumhibee1]

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I'm all for equality and would have had no problems playing against a woman during my own playing days but results when woman's teams have played against mens /juveniles teams suggest that decent woman players would struggle with the physicality? That's my opinion, not sure why it would show me or anyone else up though?

Yup. There isn’t a female footballer in the world that would be able to play even in League Two in Scotland imo due to the physicality difference. If this is the start of the two genders merging within sports then I can’t see any way it’s a positive for women.

[calumhibee1]

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Why not? True equality is putting men and women together and players being picked purely on ability rather than being male or female.

To me it is and it isn’t. Whilst I would agree with that outwith sport of course, when it comes to sport it wouldn’t be equality at all. Any sport that relies on physical prowess would see it become nigh on impossible for a woman to make it as a professional. Separate competitions make that possible.

[Brightside]

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Would it not be de-valuing the woman’s game if they start losing their best players to men’s football?

Yes. There is a need to get a happy medium. Too many girls are currently being pushed into girl only teams at a young age. The top European players continue in mixed teams till 16. That’s hardly ever the case in Scotland. From a development point of view girls improve massively by playing with boys teams and it needs to be encouraged. 2 seasons ago there was only one girl in the South east region U15s league. I don’t think there are any now. The huge increase in girls teams has led to them shying away from boys teams. I do think it becomes an issue at 16+ as the physicality difference increases. I don’t think we will see many taking part in men’s football in this country. Even at the lowest level.

[Brightside]

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Why not? True equality is putting men and women together and players being picked purely on ability rather than being male or female.

It’s not true equality though. Men are physically stronger than women and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they should compete when they are at such a disadvantage. At a lower level of sport though it’s much less about physicality

[Keith_M]

When I was a kid, there was a girl that used to play football with the boys (though I don't think she was allowed to play for the school team).

She was about 4'10 and was a nasty wee piece of work. Mess with her on the pitch and your gonads might be getting carried home in your school bag.

[Since90+2]

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It’s not true equality though. Men are physically stronger than women and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they should compete when they are at such a disadvantage. At a lower level of sport though it’s much less about physicality

Football isn't all about physical strength though, there is nothing stopping a female being world class technically and in theory being the best technical player in the world or to take it further being the most technically gifted player ever.

[AltheHibby]

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If it becomes a widespread practice, the Women's leagues could potentially lose a large number of their best players. It also presents a few logistical challenges, like extra changing rooms.


But if the Dutch FA think it's fair, then why not.

I doubt the Dutch will worry about the need for separate changing rooms!

On a related note, when I was a steward at non-league Andover we had Wendy Tom referee a match. She happily shared a very small changing room with the linesman. I assume that she changed in the shower (I didn't ask), so it may work depending on the layout of changing rooms. Whether it works due to the physical differences on the pitch is another question altogether .

[jonny]

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Yes. There is a need to get a happy medium. Too many girls are currently being pushed into girl only teams at a young age. The top European players continue in mixed teams till 16. That’s hardly ever the case in Scotland. From a development point of view girls improve massively by playing with boys teams and it needs to be encouraged. 2 seasons ago there was only one girl in the South east region U15s league. I don’t think there are any now. The huge increase in girls teams has led to them shying away from boys teams. I do think it becomes an issue at 16+ as the physicality difference increases. I don’t think we will see many taking part in men’s football in this country. Even at the lowest level.

My 2 oldest boys play for Bayside 08's (born in 08 or later) in the Fife league, just about to go to 11 aside.
When they were younger just about every other team had 1 or 2 girls but I haven't seen any girls playing against them for the past couple of years.

[Since90+2]

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To me it is and it isn’t. Whilst I would agree with that outwith sport of course, when it comes to sport it wouldn’t be equality at all. Any sport that relies on physical prowess would see it become nigh on impossible for a woman to make it as a professional. Separate competitions make that possible.

Football isn't predominantly about physical prowess though, if it was you'd have people who do Iron Man's and Ultramarathons being professional football players.

Football is about technical ability with the ball, ability to read the game and see things the average person can't. There is nothing that would stop a female doing all of those things better than a male.

[Since452]

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When I was a kid, there was a girl that used to play football with the boys (though I don't think she was allowed to play for the school team).

She was about 4'10 and was a nasty wee piece of work. Mess with her on the pitch and your gonads might be getting carried home in your school bag.

Same here. Played with a lass who was a great wee player, every bit as good or even better than the boys. Then we hit 14/15 and she struggled to compete. Can't fight nature. I'm all for womens football, absolutely, however I think if they tried to complete with men it would have the opposite effect of what was intended in terms of equality etc.

[superfurryhibby]

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Football isn't all about physical strength though, there is nothing stopping a female being world class technically and in theory being the best technical player in the world or to take it further being the most technically gifted player ever.

You're extrapolating that argument to the point where you cannot be serious.

How would you explain the result of Dallas academy under 15's 5 v USA woman's national team 2? I looked at photos and the boys, who were 15 or 14 were much larger than the women they were playing against. These were boys playing against full time professionals from a side near the top of the world rankings. Sometimes it is all about physicality, let's not delude ourselves.

[AltheHibby]

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Football isn't predominantly about physical prowess though, if it was you'd have people who do Iron Man's and Ultramarathons being professional football players.

Football is about technical ability with the ball, ability to read the game and see things the average person can't. There is nothing that would stop a female doing all of those things better than a male.

If our league was about technical ability I would fully agree. However, consider this thought: a female Hibs player up against a Levien team.

[Not In The Know]

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Not for me. They'd be at a serious physical disadvantage. Call me sexist if you want but I couldn't imagine going in for a full blooded 50/50 tackle in the pouring rain with a woman with as much force as I would a man. Goes against what's programmed inside. Sure that'll be the case for most men and that isn't fair for anyone or the integrity of the game.

There are woman stronger and fitter than Messi.

There are also men stronger and fitter than him, combining that with footballing ability is another thing altogether.

[Since90+2]

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There are woman stronger and fitter than Messi.

There are also men stronger and fitter than him, combining that with footballing ability is another thing altogether.

Completely agree.

[Since452]

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There are woman stronger and fitter than Messi.

There are also men stronger and fitter than him, combining that with footballing ability is another thing altogether.

I disagree. Messi is strong on the ball, lots of upper body strength and rapid in short bursts. The guy is a phenomenon.

[Since90+2]

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I disagree. Messi is strong on the ball, lots of upper body strength and rapid in short bursts. The guy is a phenomenon.

You disagree that there are both men and women who are fitter and stronger than Messi?

[bigwheel]

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Football isn't predominantly about physical prowess though, if it was you'd have people who do Iron Man's and Ultramarathons being professional football players.

Football is about technical ability with the ball, ability to read the game and see things the average person can't. There is nothing that would stop a female doing all of those things better than a male.

There is - It’s also about power and strength , this is what stops women competing at most levels with men. They may be technically better, but they cant compete physically at the equivalent level.

One small example: If you watch a women’s football match, you will rarely see a 60+ yard diagonal cross field pass, because there are very few women in the world that can hit them ..

Women’s football is great ..let’s enjoy their game developing in its own

[Brightside]

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You're extrapolating that argument to the point where you cannot be serious.

How would you explain the result of Dallas academy under 15's 5 v USA woman's national team 2? I looked at photos and the boys, who were 15 or 14 were much larger than the women they were playing against. These were boys playing against full time professionals from a side near the top of the world rankings. Sometimes it is all about physicality, let's not delude ourselves.

That’s not the best example. It was a bounce game the day before an international and the women were told not to tackle. But the main point is correct. Physicality is important in football.

[Brightside]

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There is - It’s also about power and strength , this is what stops women competing at most levels with men. They may be technically better, but they cant compete physically at the equivalent level.

One small example: If you watch a women’s football match, you will rarely see a 60+ yard diagonal cross field pass, because there are very few women in the world that can hit them ..

Women’s football is great ..let’s enjoy their game developing in its own

The 60 yard comment is nonsense. You see that week in week out in the women’s game.

[SquashedFrogg]

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There is - It’s also about power and strength , this is what stops women competing at most levels with men. They may be technically better, but they cant compete physically at the equivalent level.

One small example: If you watch a women’s football match, you will rarely see a 60+ yard diagonal cross field pass, because there are very few women in the world that can hit them ..

Women’s football is great ..let’s enjoy their game developing in its own

Very few women can kick a ball 60 yards?

[matty_f]

I think that women should have the choice, and then it comes down to whether or not they're good enough - that will include physically as well as technically. Like male players, if they're good technically but physically poor, then the standard that they can reach is limited.

I suppose the issue comes when men want to move in the other direction and play in the women's game - if we accept that women's football is generally played at a lower level (technically and physically) than the men's game then it's not inconceivable to think that men who drop out of men's football as they're not at that level, could then make a case for playing in the women's game. This would be massively damaging to women's football.

Rugby recently made a rule that trans women couldn't compete in women's rugby, citing the evidence of an increase in physical harm to women when up against someone who had lived as a male through adolescence - maybe the football associations could cite the same evidence to prevent men entering the women's game.