Hearts' arrogance Mk II

[Juice-Terry]

A poster recently asked why Hertz supporters are so cofident and arrogant. It got deleted (and rightfully so). Anyway, I think part of the explanation for Hertz supporters behaviour is a phenomenon called 'groupthink'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

[Sammy7nil]

Glad it was nothing I said

The post from Filipino was bizarre and worryimg.

I suppose I now think their arrogance comes from a sense of entitlement and as others have said probably stretches back over 100 years when they thought they were Edinburgh's team. If kickback is representative it is sad to see what a sad bunch they have become.

[Speedway]

I missed FH’s comments. What was the gist of them?

[BroxburnHibee]

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I missed FH’s comments. What was the gist of them?

The thread was deleted for a reason. Don't really want to delete this too so perhaps just leave it.

[Pretty Boy]

The thing about Hearts arrogance as both a club and as fans is that it isn't a pretence, they genuinely seem to believe they are a cut above other teams in Scotland. You can point out stats, facts, major honours won, attendances and the like that all prove they are on a level with Hibs and Aberdeen and they happily ignore them and continue to proclaims they are a 'big team'. For me to really be a big club it has to be almost universally acknowledged and accepted by fans everywhere. If you have to keep reminding people then you probably don't qualify.

I always remember after the 2012 final I was in Turkey a few weeks later. The Euros were on and I ended up blethering to a Geordie guy whilst watching one of the games. Inevitably the conversation turned to football and he asked who I supported. When I said Hibs he said 'oh you'll be a happy man right now then'. He though we had won the cup. Hearts fans would have had you believe their win was the only thing any football fan was talking about from Madrid to Sydney; a guy from 100 miles down the road didn't even know who won the game.

The best thing to do is let them get on with it. You are never going to convince them using logic and pointing out they are infinitely closer in trophies won to Hibs, Aberdeen and Queens Park than they are to Rangers and Celtic. Tell them Hibs have won more major trophies than them since the 70s and their heads just about explode. They just plough on regardless.

It's definitely a superiority complex of sorts and probably does have it's roots in seeing themselves as the 'Edinburgh team'. The chronic patter of 'docksiders' probably highlights that. If their entire aspiration in football is just to be a wee bit bigger than Hibs then so be it. That's their level.

[FilipinoHibs]

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Glad it was nothing I said

The post from Filipino was bizarre and worryimg.

I suppose I now think their arrogance comes from a sense of entitlement and as others have said probably stretches back over 100 years when they thought they were Edinburgh's team. If kickback is representative it is sad to see what a sad bunch they have become.

What was bizarre and worrying about it? I listed a lot of reasons for the their arrogance which harked back to since I started Hibs in 1970. The last point I made was the demographics of our support - that the Hibs support was historically poorer than the Hearrs support. That is their root of calling us spoon burning tramps. I recieved lots of abusive replies. I pointed out these were my observations from seeing large gatherings of Hibs and Hearts fans. I stopped looking at the thread after a few abusive replies. The replies continued and I suspect the thread was closed because of the replies. I did not rise to the baiit. I am from a very poor family myself and was not making fun of poverty. As Socrates, not the footballer, said when the argument is lost the loser resorts to insults.

In fact the original poster agreed with the points I was making but was puzzled by my last point on the demographics of our support. So your comment that it was a long and bizarre post is wrong and slanderous.

[Since452]

They are arrogant for the same reasons Rangers fans are arrogant. Staunchness and a superiority complex.

[J-C]

They see themselves as the establishment club in Edinburgh, we as you know originated from the Irish immigrants in the Cowgate and this has seen them believing they have an entitlement to be better due to our histories. Through in the west the same situation occurs, it's deep rooted and a pity it still happens in this day and age.

[Monts]

I'd say it almost certainly just boils down to their record in the derby. They know that ourselves and aberdeen are a similar level, but unfortunately for us, they have had a bit of a hex over us in the derbies. This leads them to believe they are bigger and better than us, and therefore must be in the next tier of 'bigness'.

[tamig]

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What was bizarre and worrying about it? I listed a lot of reasons for the their arrogance which harked back to since I started Hibs in 1970. The last point I made was the demographics of our support - that the Hibs support was historically poorer than the Hearrs support. That is their root of calling us spoon burning tramps. I recieved lots of abusive replies. I pointed out these were my observations from seeing large gatherings of Hibs and Hearts fans. I stopped looking at the thread after a few abusive replies. The replies continued and I suspect the thread was closed because of the replies. I did not rise to the baiit. I am from a very poor family myself and was not making fun of poverty. As Socrates, not the footballer, said when the argument is lost the loser resorts to insults.

In fact the original poster agreed with the points I was making but was puzzled by my last point on the demographics of our support. So your comment that it was a long and bizarre post is wrong and slanderous.

I read your post not long after you’d posted it and before it had received any replies. My immediate reaction was “WTF”. Your demographic comment was a generalisation of ridiculous proportions - no substance to it.

And your spoon burners reference has nothing to do with what folk were wearing to games in the 60s. It’s another recent favourite of theirs that has its roots in the heroin epidemic of the 80s when the arrogance and sense of self-entitlement took hold under Mercer. Nothing to do with what you saw on the terraces back in the day. Bizarre is a fair description of your thesis.

[bigwheel]

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What was bizarre and worrying about it? I listed a lot of reasons for the their arrogance which harked back to since I started Hibs in 1970. The last point I made was the demographics of our support - that the Hibs support was historically poorer than the Hearrs support. That is their root of calling us spoon burning tramps. I recieved lots of abusive replies. I pointed out these were my observations from seeing large gatherings of Hibs and Hearts fans. I stopped looking at the thread after a few abusive replies. The replies continued and I suspect the thread was closed because of the replies. I did not rise to the baiit. I am from a very poor family myself and was not making fun of poverty. As Socrates, not the footballer, said when the argument is lost the loser resorts to insults.

In fact the original poster agreed with the points I was making but was puzzled by my last point on the demographics of our support. So your comment that it was a long and bizarre post is wrong and slanderous.

Your post was such a sweeping generalisation, it was offensive and disrespectful to many..I would have thought you would have let it go, yet it seems not . surely you can sense the reaction to it .

The derogatory term you refer to is linked to the impact of the cheap heroin epedemic of the early 80s which impacted many Leith and Edinburgh homes. It has been repurposed from a Glasgow to Edinburgh insult , into now (you suggest) a Hibs one. I’m sure you know that, yet, you seek to reposition it. Very poor imo.

[FilipinoHibs]

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I read your post not long after you’d posted it and before it had received any replies. My immediate reaction was “WTF”. Your demographic comment was a generalisation of ridiculous proportions - no substance to it. And your spoon burners reference has nothing to do with what folk were wearing to games in the 60s. It’s another recent favourite of theirs that has its roots in the heroin epidemic of the 80s when the arrogance and sense of self-entitlement took hold under Mercer. Nothing to do with what you saw on the terraces back in the day. Bizarre is a fair description of your thesis.

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

[MrSmith]

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Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

We must be of similar age? I’m 53. I didn’t observe any of those differences you are making between both supports.

I've followed Hibs since the 70s - maybe earlier I don’t know but my mum, dad and brother were all massive Hibs fans (sadly all gone now) and may have taken me in the very late 60s - but as said in my response to you early this morning (without insult I may add), I’m from south Edinburgh were there is many poor working class estates/schemes, the mix in support was 50/50 and we all looked the same.

my first memory of football was vs Celtic at ER and as I said, everyone looked big and bold in the 1970, in relation to a three year old.

[where'stheslope]

Sadly, I think segregation caused the pushing apart supporters, they could no longer go to games with friends of either team playing and enjoy the game!
This created the them and us syndrome that was not apparent in the 60's.
There has always been some troublemakers on both sides, but it used to be contained in the various singing areas and was easier to police.
When segregation happened, the club songs became that wee bit more edgy and vitriol became common place.
I will always remember the Casuals walking around the front of the Gorgie Road end just to annoy the police.
In todays terms, it was just inside grounds then, now its all over social media and forums and now everyone wants to rid the world of other clubs.
Hopefully when everything dies down, we can maybe go back to just watching football again!!!

[tonyrougier123]

My best mates are sevco and also a few jambos supporters,I get told the same thing in every single footy debate,"awe youz hibs ***** are the same".but I always say we arny though,try going to easter road we always argue amongst ourselfs in the stands, sometimes even wen things are going well.
But when hibs fans are in unison and in full flow,its the best support in scotland bar none.nowt worse than two sevco fans and a jambo talking football,I can say from experience.mind blowing delusions of grandeur.

[chrisski33]

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Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

Keep digging and making your hole bigger with your nonsense

[BILLYHIBS]

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Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

I read your OP last night and I must confess I was expecting to see an apology to your fellow HIBS supporters on these threads this morning but obviously you have not sobered up yet?

Calling us undernourished and poor ?

I started following HIBS in the sixties and my memory of that era is that no one had a great deal of money but I would like to think through time we have all prospered and benefited through improvements in society, advances in technology, health, income and as a consequence standards of living and disposable income have improved dramatically.

I am not conscious of the average Hearts fan being any better or worse off than the average HIBS fan and I certainly do not remember standing beside any peasants in the HIBS end at Murrayfield versus Barcelona As another poster pointed out it was mostly neutral fans which I am sure would have been the same at Hearts v Barca

[Forza Fred]

I’ve been around a while, so Filipino Hibs’ comments, although bollox didn’t offend me.

However next time I visit Easter Road though, I’ll make sure that my Butler
has my dinner suit laid out��

[tamig]

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Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

I never actually replied to the original thread and I don’t think my post you’ve responded to was abusive in the slightest. You mentioned that you attended your first games in the 60s and that was when your views of the different demographics among each support started to form. Apologies if that’s not the case but that was my recollection of the original post.

[Since452]

Filipino Hibs is actually a pretty good poster. One that talks a bit of sense and who I agree with more often than not. Didn't see his original post but we've all posted nonsense from time to time to be fair.

[KDY Hibs]

this threads taken a turn for the worst!

[Keith_M]

Is anybody else currently thinking of The Four Yorkshiremen sketch?

[blackpoolhibs]

Started going middle 60s with my dad and grandad, when i started going on my own, everyone looked the same, and kids my age ALL wore big **** off bell bottom jeans and tank tops.

Never knew Jenners made better ones than the asian shops on leith walk or junction st did.

[McD]

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Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

i don’t see anything abusive about the post you’re replying to

[Clarence]

I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.

[Bostonhibby]

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I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.

A lot of commonsense here

I know loads of people of a Hearts and Hibs persuasion and from all walks of life, and without getting too deeply into it I just had to say I've never felt in any way inferior to anyone who follows Hearts, in life or just in footballing terms - look at them now

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[Clarence]

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A lot of commonsense here

I know loads of people of a Hearts and Hibs persuasion and from all walks of life, and without getting too deeply into it I just had to say I've never felt in any way inferior to anyone who follows Hearts, in life or just in footballing terms - look at them now

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Thanks Boston.

Once some folk have formed a view, especially when that view is hammered home by the media, they just embrace the information that confirms that view while ignoring, or rejecting, information that casts doubt on it.

[Hibs90]

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Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

I've seen sufficient visual evidence in my time to suggest the opposite. Your sweeping generalisation of Hibs fans was a poor and crass observation that lacked class.

[hongkonghibee]

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I read your OP last night and I must confess I was expecting to see an apology to your fellow HIBS supporters on these threads this morning but obviously you have not sobered up yet?

Calling us undernourished and poor ?

I started following HIBS in the sixties and my memory of that era is that no one had a great deal of money but I would like to think through time we have all prospered and benefited through improvements in society, advances in technology, health, income and as a consequence standards of living and disposable income have improved dramatically.

I am not conscious of the average Hearts fan being any better or worse off than the average HIBS fan and I certainly do not remember standing beside any peasants in the HIBS end at Murrayfield versus Barcelona As another poster pointed out it was mostly neutral fans which I am sure would have been the same at Hearts v Barca

The difference between rich and poor is bigger than ever. There is more homelessness now. Disposable income has not improved for many many people.
I broadly agree with filipinohibs with his analysis.

[BILLYHIBS]

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The difference between rich and poor is bigger than ever. There is more homelessness now. Disposable income has not improved for many many people.
I broadly agree with filipinohibs with his analysis.

Did you see his OP on the thread that was deleted?