We told you so

[GreenCastle]

Remember when Scottish football had the 10,000 seater rule for top flight.

I can never remember so much carry on when teams were denied entry in the Premier League.

Many teams can’t even get 5000 these days let alone 10,000 fans in the ground.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Talk of financial collapse is a complete red herring from Hearts and simply another tool to try and extract more sympathy from the top flight clubs.

Budge, as we are constantly reminded of by a fawning media is an astute businesswomen, so surely ticking over till January is something Budge and a big club of the stature of “The Famous” can comfortably see out.

I imagine club chairmen will look at the £20M and counting recently spent on a single tier stand, millions of pounds finding it’s way to the club via anonymous donors and the Foundation of Hearts and bumper contracts offered to players that dwarf the contracts others out with the Old Firm can pay, and come to the conclusion if Hearts can find money for all that, then they’ll find enough money to pay the wage bill for a few months and won’t fall for the hoax claims and dishonesty in this latest desperate plea to spare them of relegation.

Sunk cost fallacy.

[greenginger]

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I'm still not getting this.

Scenario 1 - Hearts stay in the Championship. That means no games until spectators can attend, which means no travelling expenses, no additional admin staff needed and basic pay only for their players which will be lower if they had relegation clauses in their contracts.

Scenario 2 - Hearts get back into the Premiership. That means games behind closed door until spectators can attend. Games behind closed doors means they have to travel to the venue, pay for Covid-19 testing, pay some additional admin staff and pay players appearance, goal and win bonuses, possibly at Premiership rates.

So in what way would they be better off financially in the Premiership. Is pay per view feasible and would it bring in enough to offset the extra costs?

In the Premiership there will be very handsome tv payments curtesy of the new Sky deal.

In the Championship there will be peanuts.

Easier to give the Championship clubs a bigger share for next season than to dink about with the league structure and risk giving Sky the opportunity to renegotiate.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

After months of bad mouthing all the other teams and self agenda pushing, they’re now trying to play the sympathy card
Aye good luck with that
These silly *******s will never learn what “living within your means” is
For a lot of clubs, voting for reconstruction, is turkeys voting for Christmas
And It’s all everyone else’s fault
They have the 4th highest attendance/season tickets in the country
A very profitable corporate and hosting/hospitality arm
And a large financial endowment every month through their supporters fund
HOW DID THEY **** THAT UP SO BADLY?!?
Ps the last remark is rhetorical, spending stupid money for wages and transfers on bad/past-it/injury prone players and £12k a week on a clueless manager wont have helped

[Waxy]

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Question to throw out there.....looking at the bigger picture here. The crux of the argument behind keeping Hearts up now is that some clubs can't afford to play a season so need to go into cold storage while other can't afford NOT to play a season and if they go to sleep they are not going to wake up.....have I got that right?
For the greater good then and if reconstruction is to be considered, we should be opening the premier league up to anyone who wants to play football next year, e.g. it would be 'unfair' to leave Falkirk in a division where the majority need to shut down if they need to be playing?
We could have a premier league of 20 odd teams, this would be for the greater good right? Would our pauper cousins be ok with that or is this only about them and too many teams would mean too little prize money?.....and after all, if an Ayr Utd was to go to the wall as a result that wouldn't be nearly as bad???

We shouldn’t be acting on the predictions of doomsday hearts are whipping up here. Its a last gasp mechanism for sympathy.
People have to be mingling again in the next few months or the entire world economy will sink.
We’ll be in front of crowds for next season.

[Billy Whizz]

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As far as I can see, if they're not playing games their wage bill can only be less than if they were playing games regardless of what division they're in or whether those games are behind closed doors or not. The important factor here is whether their income from playing games would outweigh the additional cost and I can't see how closed door games would do that. I think playing behind closed doors would produce greater losses than not playing at all.

On the debt side, at 30 June last year their loan debt was all due to related parties - mostly Budge and FOH. They did have £2.9m trade creditors and £0.6m due to HMRC but that's presumably all paid up now. Remember they went into administration last time only because Vlad's other companies went bust and the administrators of those companies were chasing the debt. Probably won't happen like that this time.

Thanks, one thing you have to remember about their playing contracts, as Budge revealed in March. We don’t know about relegation clauses etc, but we do know that the players get large salaries and small bonuses, unlike other clubs. They get most of their salary, whether they play or not.

That has to be a big concern to them

[blackpoolhibs]

Does anybody remember Mercer, **** them, get them 6 feet under.

[Peevemor]

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Question to throw out there.....looking at the bigger picture here. The crux of the argument behind keeping Hearts up now is that some clubs can't afford to play a season so need to go into cold storage while other can't afford NOT to play a season and if they go to sleep they are not going to wake up.....have I got that right?
For the greater good then and if reconstruction is to be considered, we should be opening the premier league up to anyone who wants to play football next year, e.g. it would be 'unfair' to leave Falkirk in a division where the majority need to shut down if they need to be playing?
We could have a premier league of 20 odd teams, this would be for the greater good right? Would our pauper cousins be ok with that or is this only about them and too many teams would mean too little prize money?.....and after all, if an Ayr Utd was to go to the wall as a result that wouldn't be nearly as bad???

At this stage a 20 team top league would suit Hearts fine. There'd be no need for a league of that size with literally dozens of meaningless games. Better just to go with 2 leagues of 10-12.

[Waxy]

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Remember when Scottish football had the 10,000 seater rule for top flight.

I can never remember so much carry on when teams were denied entry in the Premier League.

Many teams can’t even get 5000 these days let alone 10,000 fans in the ground.

That was the rules. Why would everyone cause a carry on?
They didnt meet the SPFL criteria.They took it on the chin and the media didnt go into overdrive trying to get the SPFL to break its own rules.
The opposite is happening here.
Hearts are a championship club but are crying there eyes out with media help to be promoted straight back into the premier.
Its actually unbelievable.

[Caversham Green]

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Question to throw out there.....looking at the bigger picture here. The crux of the argument behind keeping Hearts up now is that some clubs can't afford to play a season so need to go into cold storage while other can't afford NOT to play a season and if they go to sleep they are not going to wake up.....have I got that right?
For the greater good then and if reconstruction is to be considered, we should be opening the premier league up to anyone who wants to play football next year, e.g. it would be 'unfair' to leave Falkirk in a division where the majority need to shut down if they need to be playing?
We could have a premier league of 20 odd teams, this would be for the greater good right? Would our pauper cousins be ok with that or is this only about them and too many teams would mean too little prize money?.....and after all, if an Ayr Utd was to go to the wall as a result that wouldn't be nearly as bad???

Maybe not a bad idea for a single season to keep as many clubs as possible afloat as we don't know when or how football as a spectator sport is going to look. The following season could then revert to normal with the four divisions as they currently stand - i.e. with Dundee United in the Premiership and Hearts in the Championship.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Does anybody remember Mercer, **** them, get them 6 feet under.

I do and agree with FTH.

That said I’m looking at the reality of this and the signs and signals which points to them escaping the guillotine sickening tho it is. Seen the movie scene too many times. How the eff did they get out of the mess Vlad and co created? They could fall in the European turd lake and come out smelling of roses it’s unreal.

its never over with them til it’s over.

[hibeerealist]

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Talk of financial collapse is a complete red herring from Hearts and simply another tool to try and extract more sympathy from the top flight clubs.

Budge, as we are constantly reminded of by a fawning media is an astute businesswomen, so surely ticking over till January is something Budge and a big club of the stature of “The Famous” can comfortably see out.

I imagine club chairmen will look at the £20M and counting recently spent on a single tier stand, millions of pounds finding it’s way to the club via anonymous donors and the Foundation of Hearts and bumper contracts offered to players that dwarf the contracts others out with the Old Firm can pay, and come to the conclusion if Hearts can find money for all that, then they’ll find enough money to pay the wage bill for a few months and won’t fall for the hoax claims and dishonesty in this latest desperate plea to spare them of relegation.

Exactly Carheenlea, to this day they boast on Keekback that all the other clubs will go bust before the "famous" as they have FOH and a loyal support!!!

Whenever Budgie went for wage cuts as opposed to deferrals, like most other clubs, it was clear they were in financial s h it.

This latest "story" re Championship clubs saying they cant afford to start the season is heaven sent for Budge as she can now blame that and the Co19 for ALL their troubles thereby telling the SPL clubs you have been unfair to Hertz!!

Hertz saw nothing unfair when cheating Dundee out of their SPL place nor when they were lording it over us with their team of "unbeatables", the list is endless. They are a shower of deluded bassas and will NEVER change unless change is FORCED upon them, leave them in the championship and let them cut their cloth accordingly.

[brog]

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Reconstruction. These are once in a lifetime circumstances.

Reconstruction only potentially helps Hearts & 1 other with an expanded top division which may allow games to be played behind closed doors. If there's no football it doesnt matter how many leagues there are. The hypocrisy of Hearts is outrageous.

[Keith_M]

I'm sure they can survive financially.

Either ask generous Benny Factor for some more money or sell off some of your assets* to see you through until football resumes.


* They must have some players they could sell. They also have Tynecastle, which would be worth a few quid.

[PatHead]

Anne Budge has used covid 19 as a cover for her Hearts exit.

Before this all kicked off she went on about not leaving Hearts with any football debt. Football debts are only different in the event of administration. They still have to be repaid before being granted a new licence.

The benefactors have all disappeared at the same time. She doesn't want the FoH money paid just yet.

I suspect that she wants Hearts to be promoted in to the Premiership. They will then go into administration, dump their debt and take their chances on avoiding relegation again.

The revised club can then accept the FoH money, benefactors appear and they are in good financial health having bumped the high earners. Kind of like John Boyle did with Motherwell.

That woman can't be trusted. Look at the email that they sent out saying they were in the market for new players when they were telling clubs that they could afford transfers fees.

Let them go under but not at our expense

[Fratelli]

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Talk of financial collapse is a complete red herring from Hearts and simply another tool to try and extract more sympathy from the top flight clubs.

Budge, as we are constantly reminded of by a fawning media is an astute businesswomen, so surely ticking over till January is something Budge and a big club of the stature of “The Famous” can comfortably see out.

I imagine club chairmen will look at the £20M and counting recently spent on a single tier stand, millions of pounds finding it’s way to the club via anonymous donors and the Foundation of Hearts and bumper contracts offered to players that dwarf the contracts others out with the Old Firm can pay, and come to the conclusion if Hearts can find money for all that, then they’ll find enough money to pay the wage bill for a few months and won’t fall for the hoax claims and dishonesty in this latest desperate plea to spare them of relegation.

Spot on...

Those with any sympathies to Hearts’ plight need to remember that if reconstruction happens to keep them in the top division, they will still have access to the FOH money and potentially to millions of £‘s from their current benefactors ensuring they can afford players Hibs can’t!

I for one don’t want that...

[huggie1875]

i dont see them going down they'll wriggle out of it somehow

[Sergio sledge]

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I'm still not getting this.

Scenario 1 - Hearts stay in the Championship. That means no games until spectators can attend, which means no travelling expenses, no additional admin staff needed and basic pay only for their players which will be lower if they had relegation clauses in their contracts.

Scenario 2 - Hearts get back into the Premiership. That means games behind closed door until spectators can attend. Games behind closed doors means they have to travel to the venue, pay for Covid-19 testing, pay some additional admin staff and pay players appearance, goal and win bonuses, possibly at Premiership rates.

So in what way would they be better off financially in the Premiership. Is pay per view feasible and would it bring in enough to offset the extra costs?

In scenario 1 they have absolutely no income. No gate receipts, no sponsorship money, no hospitality, no pressure tv or prize money. In scenario 2 at least they will get some of that income in the form of sponsorships (of there's still TV coverage) and league prize money.

I have a bit of sympathy for them if it is going to be the case that that's no games on the championship, they got themselves into this mess but at least if they were able to play games they'd have some income coming in.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that a single season of drastic change might be the right way forward, but it would be on the basis that they speak to all the clubs and any who can afford to play closed door games are put into a single League (or two if there's enough teams) and play out the season with a massively changed distribution of prize money given the strange situation, solidarity payments would be made to the teams who can't afford to play based on what they may need to get through a season of moth balling the club. At the end of next season we'd then go back to the league set up as it is with promotions and relegations standing as they are at the minute. E.g. hearts would start season 21/22 in the championship, Dundee United in the premiership.

Edit, I can't help but have a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that the benefactors who have disappeared right now might conveniently reappear if they get a reprieve on relegation. That's why I'd make it a 1 season thing and then they'd be in the championship the next season.

[G B Young]

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“There is a willingness to help them out of this hole. Scottish football can’t afford to sit back and do nothing if it means losing a club of this size.”

I'm sorry, but I simply couldn't stomach it if we voted to reverse their relegation. Buying two season tickets knowing you won't get to use them for a large chunk of the season to only see them bailed out, I don't honestly think I could do it. Double edged sword in that requesting a refund for season 20/21 would hurt Hibs.

Their relegation can't be reversed. That's now set in stone and will be recorded in the history books. They went down.

The only way they could hope to gain a place in the top flight is through the creation of a new, bigger league and that looks all but a non-starter.

[G B Young]

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As much as I enjoy seeing them struggle, would 100% not want them to fold. The Derby fixture is (for both sets of supporters) the highlight of any calendar.

Budge should have come out with these stark financial warnings at the start - would have given her a lot more credibility.

I 100% would have no problem seeing them disappear for good. Selfish maybe but my life would be better without them around. The derby's no big deal IMHO, just a pretty unpleasant excuse for an outpouring of bile and I think Hibs would actually thrive by not having to adopt a different mindset for one fixture.

[Liam978]

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Does anybody remember Mercer, **** them, get them 6 feet under.

Naw Gary, even the real Jambos hated him. At the Hands off Hibs rally in the Usher Hall, I was there with my Dad and there were a few of them in our company. Also only two Hibs Players at the time turned up , as did two Hearts players.

[Billy Whizz]

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I 100% would have no problem seeing them disappear for good. Selfish maybe but my life would be better without them around. The derby's no big deal IMHO, just a pretty unpleasant excuse for an outpouring of bile and I think Hibs would actually thrive by not having to adopt a different mindset for one fixture.

They won’t fold, will still be a Hearts team playing somewhere in Scotland next season

[whiskyhibby]

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i dont see them going down they'll wriggle out of it somehow

I can.....perhaps they can reconfigure the championship and lower league teams to get say 10 that could compete in a lower league than the Premiership........

[kdhibees1]

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i dont see them going down they'll wriggle out of it somehow

Unfortunately starting to feel the same. They have a habit of doing it.

[JohnM1875]

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i dont see them going down they'll wriggle out of it somehow

They already are down. It's been confirmed! So no wriggling out of that!

But I agree with you that I don't think they'll be playing Championship football next season unfortunately. So frustrating.

[Billy Whizz]

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They already are down. It's been confirmed! So no wriggling out of that!

But I agree with you that I don't think they'll be playing Championship football next season unfortunately. So frustrating.

Surely teams like Hearts, and even Hibs, could be playing football, with fans social distanced at venues like Murrayfield, and other so called Hubs
Is this not the plan for stage 3 in Scotland

[JohnM1875]

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Surely teams like Hearts, and even Hibs, could be playing football, with fans social distanced at venues like Murrayfield, and other so called Hubs
Is this not the plan for stage 3 in Scotland

Totally. And I think that's what will happen.

But all this 'Hearts will struggle' nonsense in the news the past few days will put big pressure on clubs to push through a rushed and needless reconstruction. That's just my thinking anyway!

Hope to god I'm wrong and they languish in the Championship for years!

[nonshinyfinish]

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Does anybody remember Mercer, **** them, get them 6 feet under.

Hibs are in the s*** financially – let's buy them and shut them down.

Hearts are in the s*** financially – everyone has to help us, can't lose a big club.


Obviously the Hibs board has to do what's best for Hibs, and if that's reconstruction then so be it (although personally I can't see how that would be best for Hibs). But the above should certainly be a factor when considering the 'sympathy' angle that Hearts are going for.

[Victor]

Don’t see them having any financial worries. As they are heading to be supporter owned all debts will be spread over their fan base of 400,000 and thus easily manageable. Wish Hibs were so financially secure.


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[tomf]

Couldn't Hearts use their big club status, drawing power and the financial clout of the maroon pound to help their fellow clubs in the Championship survive through the season ahead? Wouldn't that be a better use of their substantial power rather than wasting lavish amounts on legal battles.