Hibs Mid/Late 70s Decline

[Keith_M]

I'm looking for some info/memories from some of our more 'mature' fellow Fans.


Hibs had an impressive spell in the early to mid 70s, when we were genuine title contenders and mostly finished in the top two or three.

Then from about 1976, we suffered a slump where we initially had a spell as a mid table team, followed by relegation and a long spell in the 80s where we seemed to regularly be in danger of being relegated again.

From 1976, the attendances seem to have plummeted as well and saw us eventually playing in front of average crowds of about 7-8,000 in the early/mid 80s.


What are your memories of this time, particularly the late 70s, and what was it that led to such a drastic change in fortunes?

[superfurryhibby]

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I'm looking for some info/memories from some of our more 'mature' fellow Fans.


Hibs had an impressive spell in the early to mid 70s, when we were genuine title contenders and mostly finished in the top two or three.

Then from about 1976, we suffered a slump where we initially had a spell as a mid table team, followed by relegation and a long spell in the 80s where we seemed to regularly be in danger of being relegated again.

From 1976, the attendances seem to have plummeted as well and saw us eventually playing in front of average crowds of about 7-8,000 in the early/mid 80s.


What are your memories of this time, particularly the late 70s, and what was it that led to such a drastic change in fortunes?

Some observations:

The team had been strong for five years or more before Turnbull came in. He was building on the good work of Shankly and McFarlane before him.


I think Tom Hart, ahem, lost heart a bit. By the end of the decade all assets had been sold and replaced by players of inferior standard.

Eddie Turnbull's initial genius in the transfer market began to wane. Starting with the purchase of Joe Harper. The team needed strengthened in goals and at centre half. We didn't need to tinker with a strike force that were absolutely deadly. The subsequent sale of Cropley, purchase of Ian Munro, then swap deal for involving Munro and the two Hun huddies. Joe Ward and cash for Bremner wasn't great either. History tells us that was a seriously flawed move too.

Looking back, I was only a boy, but there was tremendous talent coming through at Hibs in that early-mid 70's era, homegrown like Bobby Smith, or bought in, like Ally McLeod and Iain Munro. Seems to me like there was a flawed judgement which sabotaged the ambitions of the club and prevented them sustaining and building on what had gone before.

I think Turnbull and Hart had fallen out by the mid-later 70's, probably not something widely acknowledged, but I seem to recall this hinted at in Turnbull's book.

A few ex players have also said that Turnbull's man management style wasn't always wonderful for morale. I do wonder what must have gone on behind the scenes. The gentlemen of yesteryear aren't as willing to speak publicly about the game as those guys of more recent times.

[Tomsk]

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Some observations:

The team had been strong for five years or more before Turnbull came in. He was building on the good work of Shankly and McFarlane before him.


I think Tom Hart, ahem, lost heart a bit. By the end of the decade all assets had been sold and replaced by players of inferior standard.

Eddie Turnbull's initial genius in the transfer market began to wane. Starting with the purchase of Joe Harper. The team needed strengthened in goals and at centre half. We didn't need to tinker with a strike force that were absolutely deadly. The subsequent sale of Cropley, purchase of Ian Munro, then swap deal for involving Munro and the two Hun huddies. Joe Ward and cash for Bremner wasn't great either. History tells us that was a seriously flawed move too.

Looking back, I was only a boy, but there was tremendous talent coming through at Hibs in that early-mid 70's era, homegrown like Bobby Smith, or bought in, like Ally McLeod and Iain Munro. Seems to me like there was a flawed judgement which sabotaged the ambitions of the club and prevented them sustaining and building on what had gone before.

You might also have mentioned the sale of a certain P Stanton. It may be sacrilegious to say so but in the latter half of the decade Ned's judgement was very hit and miss at best.

Attendances in the 1980s were not helped by the style of football played by Bertie Auld following Turnbull's departure, some popular but poor appointments in Pat and Blackley and under-investment in the playing staff and ground. Hibs could always unearth talented players - Collins, Rice, Kane - but just never enough of them to make a team. Then Miller arrived and left us yearning for the free-flowing attacking good old days of Bertie Auld.

[Roxyhibee]

Ooh a number of reasons, in a rough chronology

Most of the highly skilled Tornadoes were already at Hibs when Turnbull arrived, so a top coach like him just had to get them playing at the top of their game. He did immediately sign Edwards and Gordon (I think..) but after that with the exception of Bremner, Turnbull could never replace the standard of player across the park which he found already there on his arrival.

We reached incredible heights very quickly, within 18 months of him arriving, so it maybe became an unrealistic pressure for that incredible football to continue for several seasons.

Brownlies leg break.

Hadjuk Split 3 Hibs 0 (agg 5-4) QF of Cup Winners Cup - no exaggeration to say we could have lifted a European trophy that season but things went very wrong both at ER and Split and after Turnbull questioned their bottle, the relationship was damaged forever, despite having a couple of decent seasons after that.

He let some fans’ heroes go to other clubs circa 74/75 as he increasingly became a bit power crazy over the players.

Hearts went yoyo for a few seasons down to the second division, and imo I think that lowered our standards as we had constant bragging rights without even having to play a derby.

The relationship between Turnbull and Hart got increasingly fraught in the final few seasons of his tenure.

Nothing lasts forever in football, even then, and with the exception of Ferguson at Man U, even big clubs signing high quality players these days rarely get a sustained honeymoon period with a new manager for more than 3 or 4 seasons.

[superfurryhibby]

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You might also have mentioned the sale of a certain P Stanton. It may be sacrilegious to say so but in the latter half of the decade Ned's judgement was very hit and miss at best.

Attendances in the 1980s were not helped by the style of football played by Bertie Auld following Turnbull's departure, some popular but poor appointments in Pat and Blackley and under-investment in the playing staff and ground. Hibs could always unearth talented players - Collins, Rice, Kane - but just never enough of them to make a team. Then Miller arrived and left us yearning for the free-flowing attacking good old days of Bertie Auld.

Aye, the swap for Stanton for McNamara. It was a huge shock to me. No one was to know that Pat's career would be curtailed by injury by injury so soon after. But he certainly was a huge loss in the centre of the park.

Shades going to Dundee too, for Bobby Hutchison, another falling out with the boss behind that one too?

[Kato]

One factor often overlooked was Turnbull's ill health. It wasn't even widely publicised at the time apart from when he had to relinquish first team duties for a spell when Wilson Humphries took over (unbeaten in 12-14 matches whilst he picked the team). Psychologically Turnbull was spent by '76-77, he never actually fully recovered until the '90's.

Also Turnbull's astuteness, and the players he inherited, meant that his early success was achieved for a song - when solid investment was required it was never really met by Hart. Selling players for pretty big sums but not really re-investing.

[JimBHibees]

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One factor often overlooked was Turnbull's ill health. It wasn't even widely publicised at the time apart from when he had to relinquish first team duties for a spell when Wilson Humphries took over (unbeaten in 12-14 matches whilst he picked the team). Psychologically Turnbull was spent by '76-77, he never actually fully recovered until the '90's.

Also Turnbull's astuteness, and the players he inherited, meant that his early success was achieved for a song - when solid investment was required it was never really met by Hart. Selling players for pretty big sums but not really re-investing.

We certainly fell off a cliff team wise. A really poor transfer policy usually meaning a very popular player leaving and nowhere near the quality replacing them. Scott and Fyfe kind of summed it up but so did Joe Ward dear oh dear. To go from the most entertaining team in Scotland to relegation was absolutely criminal to be honest.

[Since452]

Turnbull era was before my time but it seems every really good period/manager we've had has been followed by an equally bad spell. End of McLeish reign was grim as was Lennons. Seem to remember us being pretty poor before Mowbray parted for WBA as well.

[Tom Hart RIP]

From the summer of 1972 to New year's Day 1973 Hibs were magnificent. We won the Drybrough Cup then the League Cup, hammered Sporting Lisbon and had a two goal lead in the first leg of the European Cup Winners Cup and beat Hearts 7-0 at Tynecastle.

After that game Tom Hart was quoted in the papers predicting that we would win the league and Cup Winners Cup and most Hibs fans believed him.

We played East Fife on 6/1/73 and John Brownlie, the best right back in Europe at the time suffered a broken leg and Alex Edwards who had been kicked every time he got the ball was booked for throwing the ball away in disgust which resulted in a 56 day (eight week) suspension and the Tornadoes never played together again.

The Joe Harper move was an ambitious one, breaking the Scottish transfer record but in hindsight it was the wrong move and although Joe had a very good scoring record, the team was broken up to accommodate him.

Although we still brought in some good players such as Ally MacLeod, Ian Munro, Jackie MacNamara, George Stewart and Ralph Callachan along with youngsters like Des Bremner, Bobby Smith and Tony Higgins, the team never seemed to click.

Much as I loved Eddie Turnbull some of his signings later on were poor, ie Ally Scott and Graham Fyfe from Rangers for Munro, Bobby Hutchison from Dundee for Erich and subsequently Joe Ward from Aston Villa as part of the Des Bremner deal.

The attendances dropped as fans compared the new players to the Tornadoes although we were mainly near the top of the league and still regularly qualified for Europe.

[BILLYHIBS]

Agree with all of the above

Turnbulls Tornadoes were the best HIBS team I have ever seen and I think ever will see in my lifetime

A well drilled well coached football machine every man new their place in the system and they played the same system every game if a move broke down they would simply start again knowing they had enough fire power and football to beat every team in the league

Their football in full flow was a joy to behold

Towards the end of the decade while not the force of old Eddie Turnbulls swan song was the 1979 Scottish Cup Final where HIBS took Rangers to two replays and were unlucky not to win

It was sad watching Eddie Turnbulls demise as he was a fantastic coach not so much man manager but he broke up the Tornadoes too early imho

[greenginger]

T

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One factor often overlooked was Turnbull's ill health. It wasn't even widely publicised at the time apart from when he had to relinquish first team duties for a spell when Wilson Humphries took over (unbeaten in 12-14 matches whilst he picked the team). Psychologically Turnbull was spent by '76-77, he never actually fully recovered until the '90's.

Also Turnbull's astuteness, and the players he inherited, meant that his early success was achieved for a song - when solid investment was required it was never really met by Hart. Selling players for pretty big sums but not really re-investing.

I think the loss of Wilson Humphries was big blow to Turnbull and Hibs.

He was a PE teacher by profession and he was of an age he had to rejoin the teaching profession then or not at all.

Can’t blame the guy, after all guaranteed employment and a pension at the end of it was pretty rare in the 70’s.

[Tomsk]

Hibs struggled to deal with the commercial realities. Besides player sales, a poisoned chalice if ever there was one, money through the gate was the main and just about only real source of income in those days. This was long before meaningful TV deals, mass sponsorship and merchandising. Attendances were in free fall right throughout the Scottish game not helped by hooliganism, and Hibs got caught up in the torrent. The really had no option but to sell.

To be fair to Hart, he tried to find alternative income sources like shirt sponsorship and even a very crude an early form of electronic scoreboard. He also dabbled in the overseas market bringing in a couple of very accomplished Icelanders. All of these initiatives were ahead of their time, and of course met head on with the usual SFA bloody-mindedness. The soon put a stop to any ideas. It's little wonder Tom Hart lost the will. By the end of his time he was a shadow of his old sleeves-rolled-up, take-on-all-comers fighter who we knew and loved in the 1970s.

[Kato]

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We played East Fife on 6/1/73 and John Brownlie, the best right back in Europe at the time suffered a broken leg and Alex Edwards who had been kicked every time he got the ball was booked for throwing the ball away in disgust which resulted in a 56 day (eight week) suspension and the Tornadoes never played together again..

Both Stanton and Blackley were given lengthy bans as well.

[Peevemor]

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Hibs struggled to deal with the commercial realities. Besides player sales, a poisoned chalice if ever there was one, money through the gate was the main and just about only real source of income in those days. This was long before meaningful TV deals, mass sponsorship and merchandising. Attendances were in free fall right throughout the Scottish game not helped by hooliganism, and Hibs got caught up in the torrent. The really had no option but to sell.

To be fair to Hart, he tried to find alternative income sources like shirt sponsorship and even a very crude an early form of electronic scoreboard. He also dabbled in the overseas market bringing in a couple of very accomplished Icelanders. All of these initiatives were ahead of their time, and of course met head on with the usual SFA bloody-mindedness. The soon put a stop to any ideas. It's little wonder Tom Hart lost the will. By the end of his time he was a shadow of his old sleeves-rolled-up, take-on-all-comers fighter who we knew and loved in the 1970s.

The scoreboard was Kenny Waugh.

I agree on the rest though.

[Deansy]

For me I've always believed the biggest cause of the downfall was Joe Harper's arrival - he just wasn't needed !. Our centre-forward at the time, Alan Gordon, was in line for the 'Golden Boot Of Europe' award (an award given to the highest scorer of that season) so there was no sense or logic behind it !. I've heard it said that Harper was brought without Turnbull's blessing or knowledge - maybe Hart just wanted to be the first chairman of a Scottish club to pay over £100,000 for a player ??. Either way, for me, Hibs just started to plummet after Harper arrived - apparently he wasn't easy to get on with either, One of the stories I've heard was that Harper, Blackley and 2-3 of the other 1st-team at the time, were in the 'Lea Rig' pub in Restalrig and an argument developed between Harper and Blackley that ended with Blackley sticking-the-nut on Harper, who went flying off the stool he was sitting on !. Whether that's true I don't know, I think, at the time, I only heard this story from 1-2 people ??. Maybe there were also other reasons for the downfall, but for me as a 11-12 year-old laddie at the time, I was convinced it was all Harper's fault !

[Kato]

The introduction of playing each other 4 times a season didn't help - (Tom Hart's idea!).

By the third round of fixtures the more agricultural teams had sussed out how to spoil the better teams play. Resulted in us buying the likes of Roy Barry to act as an enforcer.

I doubt anyone could claim that the game in Scotland has recovered as an entertainment spectacle. Some brutal teams have been successful - I include Jim McLean's Dundee Utd in that. Some great players and can't deny their success but jeez, they were as dull as dish-water to watch at times. It's notable their decline started when the pass-back to goalie was banned.

[Since452]

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The introduction of playing each other 4 times a season didn't help - (Tom Hart's idea!).

By the third round of fixtures the more agricultural teams had sussed out how to spoil the better teams play. Resulted in us buying the likes of Roy Barry to act as an enforcer.

I doubt anyone could claim that the game in Scotland has recovered as an entertainment spectacle. Some brutal teams have been successful - I include Jim McLean's Dundee Utd in that. Some great players and can't deny their success but jeez, they were as dull as dish-water to watch at times. It's notable their decline started when the pass-back to goalie was banned.

I read recently McLean used to fine his players if they weren't entertaining enough during their glory days

[Kato]

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I read recently McLean used to fine his players if they weren't entertaining enough during their glory days

They must have been walking out with about 25p a week then.

[Keith_M]

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The introduction of playing each other 4 times a season didn't help - (Tom Hart's idea!).

By the third round of fixtures the more agricultural teams had sussed out how to spoil the better teams play. Resulted in us buying the likes of Roy Barry to act as an enforcer.

I doubt anyone could claim that the game in Scotland has recovered as an entertainment spectacle. Some brutal teams have been successful - I include Jim McLean's Dundee Utd in that. Some great players and can't deny their success but jeez, they were as dull as dish-water to watch at times. It's notable their decline started when the pass-back to goalie was banned.

If you look at Edinburgh derby attendances for the years immediately before the change to a 10 team league compared to immediately after, it's quite remarkable how much they dropped.

I expect it's a mixture of reasons, including the rise of hooliganism, but playing each other four games a season must have made a difference as well.

[brog]

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One factor often overlooked was Turnbull's ill health. It wasn't even widely publicised at the time apart from when he had to relinquish first team duties for a spell when Wilson Humphries took over (unbeaten in 12-14 matches whilst he picked the team). Psychologically Turnbull was spent by '76-77, he never actually fully recovered until the '90's.

Also Turnbull's astuteness, and the players he inherited, meant that his early success was achieved for a song - when solid investment was required it was never really met by Hart. Selling players for pretty big sums but not really re-investing.

You make an excellent point there about Ned's health & as GreenGinger mentions the loss of Wilson Humphries. Ned was contrary & stubborn at the best of time & while his non existent man management worked when we had a great team, it bit us when we had a lesser team. I wouldn't really agree about the lack of investment from Tom H though, he backed Ned throughout in the transfer market & smashed the Scottish record when signing Joe Harper. Tom H was always innovative & he tried to make Ned the 1st ever Football Director but Ned took it badly & I believe that was the start of the falling out. Despite it all Ned did have one last chance of glory but a shocking refereeing decision (surprise) cost us the Cup in 1979. That final was our last huzzah & we were relegated the following season. That's a simplistic version but really Ned was not the same manager from about 1976 on.

[Bostonhibby]

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From the summer of 1972 to New year's Day 1973 Hibs were magnificent. We won the Drybrough Cup then the League Cup, hammered Sporting Lisbon and had a two goal lead in the first leg of the European Cup Winners Cup and beat Hearts 7-0 at Tynecastle.

After that game Tom Hart was quoted in the papers predicting that we would win the league and Cup Winners Cup and most Hibs fans believed him.

We played East Fife on 6/1/73 and John Brownlie, the best right back in Europe at the time suffered a broken leg and Alex Edwards who had been kicked every time he got the ball was booked for throwing the ball away in disgust which resulted in a 56 day (eight week) suspension and the Tornadoes never played together again.

The Joe Harper move was an ambitious one, breaking the Scottish transfer record but in hindsight it was the wrong move and although Joe had a very good scoring record, the team was broken up to accommodate him.

Although we still brought in some good players such as Ally MacLeod, Ian Munro, Jackie MacNamara, George Stewart and Ralph Callachan along with youngsters like Des Bremner, Bobby Smith and Tony Higgins, the team never seemed to click.

Much as I loved Eddie Turnbull some of his signings later on were poor, ie Ally Scott and Graham Fyfe from Rangers for Munro, Bobby Hutchison from Dundee for Erich and subsequently Joe Ward from Aston Villa as part of the Des Bremner deal.

The attendances dropped as fans compared the new players to the Tornadoes although we were mainly near the top of the league and still regularly qualified for Europe.

Been thinking about this one for a while and pretty much agree all of this, what times they were. I was probably too young and definitely too daft then to appreciate it all as I thought we'd just go on like that forever. Great days though.

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[brog]

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For me I've always believed the biggest cause of the downfall was Joe Harper's arrival - he just wasn't needed !. Our centre-forward at the time, Alan Gordon, was in line for the 'Golden Boot Of Europe' award (an award given to the highest scorer of that season) so there was no sense or logic behind it !. I've heard it said that Harper was brought without Turnbull's blessing or knowledge - maybe Hart just wanted to be the first chairman of a Scottish club to pay over £100,000 for a player ??. Either way, for me, Hibs just started to plummet after Harper arrived - apparently he wasn't easy to get on with either, One of the stories I've heard was that Harper, Blackley and 2-3 of the other 1st-team at the time, were in the 'Lea Rig' pub in Restalrig and an argument developed between Harper and Blackley that ended with Blackley sticking-the-nut on Harper, who went flying off the stool he was sitting on !. Whether that's true I don't know, I think, at the time, I only heard this story from 1-2 people ??. Maybe there were also other reasons for the downfall, but for me as a 11-12 year-old laddie at the time, I was convinced it was all Harper's fault !

There's no doubt Harper's arrival caused disruption in the squad but it's a bit unfair to pin all our decline on him. He was 100% Turnbull's choice, remember Ned had been his manager at Aberdeen. Alan Gordon wasn't in line for the Golden Boot, he had been in 72/73 season but Harper was signed in Feb 74. TBF to both Ned & Harper, the Tornadoes did under achieve, 1 major trophy only & we had fallen apart in the 2nd half of the wondrous 72/73 season. Turnbull thought Harper was the guy to make us less of a soft touch. It didn't work but Harper's scoring record for Hibs was top class, 1 in 2 & he was 1st capped while playing for us.

[Tomsk]

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You make an excellent point there about Ned's health & as GreenGinger mentions the loss of Wilson Humphries. Ned was contrary & stubborn at the best of time & while his non existent man management worked when we had a great team, it bit us when we had a lesser team. I wouldn't really agree about the lack of investment from Tom H though, he backed Ned throughout in the transfer market & smashed the Scottish record when signing Joe Harper. Tom H was always innovative & he tried to make Ned the 1st ever Football Director but Ned took it badly & I believe that was the start of the falling out. Despite it all Ned did have one last chance of glory but a shocking refereeing decision (surprise) cost us the Cup in 1979. That final was our last huzzah & we were relegated the following season. That's a simplistic version but really Ned was not the same manager from about 1976 on.

It's a funny old game. Until 2016, that 1979 side, which was, how can I put this kindly, no very guid, made the best fist of any Hibs side I've seen in a Scottish Cup final. They could easily have won the cup.

[superfurryhibby]

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There's no doubt Harper's arrival caused disruption in the squad but it's a bit unfair to pin all our decline on him. He was 100% Turnbull's choice, remember Ned had been his manager at Aberdeen. Alan Gordon wasn't in line for the Golden Boot, he had been in 72/73 season but Harper was signed in Feb 74. TBF to both Ned & Harper, the Tornadoes did under achieve, 1 major trophy only & we had fallen apart in the 2nd half of the wondrous 72/73 season. Turnbull thought Harper was the guy to make us less of a soft touch. It didn't work but Harper's scoring record for Hibs was top class, 1 in 2 & he was 1st capped while playing for us.

I can appreciate Turnbull wanting to add steel to a side that had perhaps fallen short at times, but it seems a strange decision to sign Harper. The strike force were just awesome, so adding him to the mix seems odd.

Imagine Hibs had used that money differently, maybe signed Alan Rough and the likes of Tam Forsyth (ok, probably already a HUn so mibbies not). The £120,000 fee was very high by the standard of the time. If only we could rewrite history
, what could that team have achieved if the money was spent differently. One way or another, Harper's transfer must be a pretty significant one in terms of impact, sigh

[greenpaper55]

By the mid seventies i think Ned was believing his own publicity and he thought he could do no wrong, He was lucky when he took over Hibs in that the core of the team Blackley Stanton Brownlie were top class, he did pluck some really good players from obscurity such as Duncan and shades, all five mentioned played for Scotland. Bottom line is we never replaced like with like on a class basis so the standards dropped , we were beaten more and crowds dropped in the usual downward spiral. Ned sadly lost his golden touch of spotting a good player at a bargain price and maybe his pot of gold was smaller also due to his benefactor not throwing so much money around.

[BILLYHIBS]

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I can appreciate Turnbull wanting to add steel to a side that had perhaps fallen short at times, but it seems a strange decision to sign Harper. The strike force were just awesome, so adding him to the mix seems odd.

Imagine Hibs had used that money differently, maybe signed Alan Rough and the likes of Tam Forsyth (ok, probably already a HUn so mibbies not). The £120,000 fee was very high by the standard of the time. If only we could rewrite history
, what could that team have achieved if the money was spent differently. One way or another, Harper's transfer must be a pretty significant one in terms of impact, sigh

Maybe signing another top class goalie as cover for Herriot rather than binning him and a centre half Big Dode Stewart who was desperate to sign

Perhaps Tom Hart was in a hurry to get his investment back from Harper hence the sale of Cropley

Gordon and ORourke very quickly became surplus to requirements and were sold

Ally Macleod was brought in to replace Cropley

Joe Harper as others have said was an excellent player but not initially accepted by the fans made his debut at Brockville at least two stone overweight and seemed to get away with a lot more under Turnbull than existing Tornadoes

Two quotes from that time stick in my head the first from Joe Harper “Do you think I left Everton for less money?”

Pat Stanton said that after 1/1/1973 Turnbull stepped up the training to really go for the league but injuries and suspensions took over the final straw was the 0-3 defeat in Split in the ECWC QF a trophy that Turnbull thought HIBS could win that was when he decided to break up the Tornadoes

Jim Herriot never played for HIBS again

[BILLYHIBS]

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By the mid seventies i think Ned was believing his own publicity and he thought he could do no wrong, He was lucky when he took over Hibs in that the core of the team Blackley Stanton Brownlie were top class, he did pluck some really good players from obscurity such as Duncan and shades, all five mentioned played for Scotland. Bottom line is we never replaced like with like on a class basis so the standards dropped , we were beaten more and crowds dropped in the usual downward spiral. Ned sadly lost his golden touch of spotting a good player at a bargain price and maybe his pot of gold was smaller also due to his benefactor not throwing so much money around.

Duncan and Shades were both signed by Willie Macfarlane

Turnbull signed Gordon Edwards and Herriot

[ancient hibee]

I thought signing Harper would be a good move as the time to strengthen a squad is when it's playing well not badly.O'Rourke and Gordon had had a great run and I imagined that Harper would replace O'Rourke and O'Rourke who was good enough (and had in the Past)would play where required anywhere in midfield.The first game at Brockville was a big shock.First of all Harper was no where near fit and second he and O'Rourke started upfront with Gordon on the bench.Seemed all wrong to me and that 0-0 draw was the start of the decline because the way the team played was changed Harper preferred to play in the middle on his own and once fit was very good at it and he liked to have two fast wingers because he was prolific coming on to a low driven ball from out wide.Ned seemed to have lost the plot.My seat in the old stand was just behind the Directors Box and he sat in the back row.Most of the time he looked ashen and there were always rumours about major stomach problems.Decent players were brought in,particularly George Stewart who should have been signed a few years earlier.The signing of Best was the final straw.Ned knew it would be a waste of money which could have been spent elsewhere.He and Hart and Youngerhad been great pals.If you wanted to find them on a Saturday night they were having a meal in the Queensway in Queensferry Road .Some of us would go there for dinner with our wives and it was noticeable that they were nowhere near as pally and it was no surprise when it all ended in tears and relegation.

[Kato]

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By the mid seventies i think Ned was believing his own publicity.

Didn't get that impression at all.

One, it coincides with the period of time when he was extremely ill.

Two, to describe ET as "down to earth" doesn't even begin to bring into focus how much of a realist he was. If you read about his time as manager of Queens Park or his early years with Aberdeen you get impression of someone with zero affectations. He knew how good he was but was level with that throughout his career.


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[brog]

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Maybe signing another top class goalie as cover for Herriot rather than binning him and a centre half Big Dode Stewart who was desperate to sign

Perhaps Tom Hart was in a hurry to get his investment back from Harper hence the sale of Cropley

Gordon and ORourke very quickly became surplus to requirements and were sold

Ally Macleod was brought in to replace Cropley

Joe Harper as others have said was an excellent player but not initially accepted by the fans made his debut at Brockville at least two stone overweight and seemed to get away with a lot more under Turnbull than existing Tornadoes

Two quotes from that time stick in my head the first from Joe Harper “Do you think I left Everton for less money?”

Pat Stanton said that after 1/1/1973 Turnbull stepped up the training to really go for the league but injuries and suspensions took over the final straw was the 0-3 defeat in Split in the ECWC QF a trophy that Turnbull thought HIBS could win that was when he decided to break up the Tornadoes

Jim Herriot never played for HIBS again

Turnbull's most bizarre signing was Roddy McKenzie. We scored 19 goals against Airdrie in 72/73 & then signed their keeper. 11 games later & Roddy was history!!