Hibernian FC Finances

[cocteautwin]

Can we start a new thread discussing the situation as it relates to our own club? There’s a lot about the comedy finances at our near neighbours but not so much relating to our own financial position. We need to be careful what we celebrate, considering our previous history of laughing at our closest rival’s relegation only to follow them down the rabbit hole a few weeks later.

One does assume that we are in a relatively heathy position at the moment, having not overspent on anything but until the 2020 season’s accounts are published we won’t really know how high our wage bill is.

In relation to HFC’s finances, various points for discussion would be:

1. Why haven’t our accounts for 2019 been filed yet?
2. Is our wage bill high this year?
3. What charges are held over the assets of the club?

Aside from Celtic I am assuming we are the second healthiest club (financially) in Scotland. Can anyone refute this?

Point 3 is the most worrying for me. Are we likely to get caught up in the financial turmoil in the USA and get taken down by a stray charge over the stadium/training centre?

[Ozyhibby]

We have not even had one home game missed yet. In total it’s likely to be about £1m lost if we start next season on time. Scottish cup income may only be delayed. We should be able to cope so long as next season starts on time. We won’t know that until summer.


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[danhibees1875]

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We have not even had one home game missed yet. In total it’s likely to be about £1m lost if we start next season on time. Scottish cup income may only be delayed. We should be able to cope so long as next season starts on time. We won’t know that until summer.


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We were meant to play St Johnstone (I think) at home last Saturday.

[Bostonhibby]

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We have not even had one home game missed yet. In total it’s likely to be about £1m lost if we start next season on time. Scottish cup income may only be delayed. We should be able to cope so long as next season starts on time. We won’t know that until summer.


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Pretty much how I see it but not easy to be clear based on accounts numbers that are just moment in time figures, we will definitely have less now in my view.

Unknown is financial support from the owner and how he might provide or raise those funds if needed. I think we're probably in as good a place as we can be compared to most others and given the sudden and dramatic change in events

Dig in and get on with it tends to be our way, hopefully that continues.

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[GordonHFC]

Budge stating they will lose £500,000 from the Scottish Cup semi not being played is being a tad misleading. Scottish Cup money is not budgeted for at the start of a financial year so is not lost income. Any money you receive from a cup run will be a bonus to the budget.

[danhibees1875]

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Budge stating they will lose £500,000 from the Scottish Cup semi not being played is being a tad misleading. Scottish Cup money is not budgeted for at the start of a financial year so is not lost income. Any money you receive from a cup run will be a bonus to the budget.

Depends what they budgeted for I guess.

Would be ambitious to have done that though, at the start of the year at least.

I think we used to (maybe still do) budget for the QF of each cup each year.

[Bostonhibby]

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Budge stating they will lose £500,000 from the Scottish Cup semi not being played is being a tad misleading. Scottish Cup money is not budgeted for at the start of a financial year so is not lost income. Any money you receive from a cup run will be a bonus to the budget.

Yep, they've been overspending and spending what they haven't got, we would hopefully seen the unbudgeted income here as a welcome bonus to invest in future plans that were already there. Not blowing it against existing and probably concealed overspending.

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[Liberal Hibby]

Assuming this season is ended early - won't the club have a contractual liability to refund ST holders for the 4/5 games that they've paid for but were cancelled? (Not saying most would want a refund - but in accounting terms it would affect the bottom line).

[Callum_62]

Any club who immediately put it to cut 50pct of all staff costs or start offering redundancies was living on the edge

Other clubs might go the same way but I'm really surprised hearts have moved so quickly

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[Moulin Yarns]

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Any club who immediately put it to cut 50pct of all staff costs or start offering redundancies was living on the edge

Other clubs might go the same way but I'm really surprised hearts have moved so quickly

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My immediate thought was where is the FOH money going?

[The 90+2]

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My immediate thought was where is the FOH money going?

I thought they would have millions in funds ready to plough in but apparently not, apparently they hand the funds over to Budge every month and are skint too. Crazy ****.

[Col2]

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My immediate thought was where is the FOH money going?

There has been constant rumours around where exactly that money was been diverted to or part diverted to.

Budge brother in law (hibby) busineee is in better shape than its ever been given the stand work. Estimates like £1.5m to fit out the 4th floor seem high but what do I know 👀

[McD]

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Any club who immediately put it to cut 50pct of all staff costs or start offering redundancies was living on the edge

Other clubs might go the same way but I'm really surprised hearts have moved so quickly

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they haven’t even missed a home game yet have they?

it smells very fishy

[where'stheslope]

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they haven’t even missed a home game yet have they?

it smells very fishy

How many people are going to be paid off as their work cannot exist allowing people to stay home on full pay?
What I think Budgie has done is in a way admirable, her team cannot play games or train, and although they are contracted to be paid in full, its a measure to safe guard their club as a whole.
I don't think they will be the only club going down this route, others will follow sooner rather than later.

[Sammy7nil]

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How many people are going to be paid off as their work cannot exist allowing people to stay home on full pay?
What I think Budgie has done is in a way admirable, her team cannot play games or train, and although they are contracted to be paid in full, its a measure to safe guard their club as a whole.
I don't think they will be the only club going down this route, others will follow sooner rather than later.

I don't disagree but it seems like an ultimatum rather than a negotiation with players. Also it is like a very quick cliff edge fall off with no time for players and staff to assess and plan for the consequences. Most people live to their income and a 50% drop for anyone will have a huge impact.

Surely they could have waited a couple of weeks and had a proper conversation with staff, could even have asked the players to pay all support and admin staff salaries.

I agree others will follow but I just hope they give staff time and have open and honest conversation around why this has to happen now.

Look at what happened to Berra there is no loyalty in football clubs empty players like sour milk.

[where'stheslope]

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I don't disagree but it seems like an ultimatum rather than a negotiation with players. Also it is like a very quick cliff edge fall off with no time for players and staff to assess and plan for the consequences. Most people live to their income and a 50% drop for anyone will have a huge impact.

Surely they could have waited a couple of weeks and had a proper conversation with staff, could even have asked the players to pay all support and admin staff salaries.

I agree others will follow but I just hope they give staff time and have open and honest conversation around why this has to happen now.

Look at what happened to Berra there is no loyalty in football clubs empty players like sour milk.

Just seen in the papers this morning, that there is a clause in the SPFL players contract, that if there is no games being played players wages can be withdrawn until games resume!!!
Also, Borrusia Dortmund and Hoffenhiem have also cut players salaries by 50%.
These times are really bad, and wait and see could cost more in the long run!!!

[Callum_62]

Hasnt FOH put in nearly 9 million quid?

Absolutely crazy sums

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[The 90+2]

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Hasnt FOH put in nearly 9 million quid?

Absolutely crazy sums

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Yep. Every penny *****ed away and now they think Budge is ahead of the times with yesterday’s announcement.

[matty_f]

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Can we start a new thread discussing the situation as it relates to our own club? There’s a lot about the comedy finances at our near neighbours but not so much relating to our own financial position. We need to be careful what we celebrate, considering our previous history of laughing at our closest rival’s relegation only to follow them down the rabbit hole a few weeks later.

One does assume that we are in a relatively heathy position at the moment, having not overspent on anything but until the 2020 season’s accounts are published we won’t really know how high our wage bill is.

In relation to HFC’s finances, various points for discussion would be:

1. Why haven’t our accounts for 2019 been filed yet?
2. Is our wage bill high this year?
3. What charges are held over the assets of the club?

Aside from Celtic I am assuming we are the second healthiest club (financially) in Scotland. Can anyone refute this?

Point 3 is the most worrying for me. Are we likely to get caught up in the financial turmoil in the USA and get taken down by a stray charge over the stadium/training centre?

From the AGM - the accounts have been filed, I think - certainly they've been issued to shareholders and widely reported (they're on the official site, for example - at least a summary is).

Our wage bill was within the 60% wages to turnover recommendation (think we were at 59%, from memory) - higher than previous years but within the healthy limit.

No charges are held over the club unless we borrow, which we haven't.

[Billy Whizz]

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From the AGM - the accounts have been filed, I think - certainly they've been issued to shareholders and widely reported (they're on the official site, for example - at least a summary is).

Our wage bill was within the 60% wages to turnover recommendation (think we were at 59%, from memory) - higher than previous years but within the healthy limit.

No charges are held over the club unless we borrow, which we haven't.

And I presume the money for Villa getting promoted, will be in the next accounts?

[matty_f]

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And I presume the money for Villa getting promoted, will be in the next accounts?

I could be wrong but I think it was included in the accounts just published.

[Caversham Green]

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I could be wrong but I think it was included in the accounts just published.

I don't know for sure as I haven't seen the accounts but I would expect it to be included as it was known to be coming in and arose before the year end. If the cash hadn't been received it would be reflected in debtors.

BTW The accounts haven't been filed at Companies House yet, or at least aren't online. The filing deadline is the end of this month.

[HibeeDaz6270]

Is the financial effects of this really as bad as people think?

I dont think the financial position for us would be too bad unless season ticket holders suddenly wanted partial refunds, which i doubt.

I understand we will lose different streams of income, and of course any loss of revenue is always a concern but i would assume gate receipts would always be the big one. How many walk up fans do we actually have? With season tickets already being paid for, is the loss of this really that big when you consider the operating costs that we will save? Policing etc.

When you also consider a fair chunk of wages will be bonus related , the outgoings in terms of wages will likely already have decreased.

[Keith_M]

Assuming Hibs lose the income from the remaining four league games (I'm leaving out the Scottish Cup money, as that surely is a bonus), just how much would we actually lose?


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The before the split home games would be (with estimated attendances based on last year's games + current form)

St Johnstone (16,500)
Celtc (20,000)


In addition, we'd be due to play two home games after the split, Let's say:

The Rangers (19,500)
Aberdeen (18,000)

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If you take off the ~13k Season Tickets, that's four games with an average tickets sold of 5.5k per game.

A reasonably large number of those will be concession tickets, and St J and Aberdeen aren't Category A so, let's be generous and say the average cost is £20 per ticket.

That would be £110k per match, or roughly £450k in total.... minus VAT, policing, player bonuses and other costs.

[cocteautwin]

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From the AGM - the accounts have been filed, I think - certainly they've been issued to shareholders and widely reported (they're on the official site, for example - at least a summary is).

Our wage bill was within the 60% wages to turnover recommendation (think we were at 59%, from memory) - higher than previous years but within the healthy limit.

No charges are held over the club unless we borrow, which we haven't.

There's a couple of mistakes in your statements above:

- The accounts haven't been filed yet - they are to be filed by 31 March at the latest. The later than normal filing struck me as a little unusual but it's not a major concern. I presume there's nothing to hide in the accounts.

- There are two charges held over the assets of the club (one being over the training ground and one being over the stadium itself). These were registered on 16 July and 12 August and held by Bydand Sports LLC (RG's Holding Company) over the club:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

I haven't seen these charges over HFC's assets discussed at all on this board. The major concern is whether anyone has a charge over the assets of Bydand Sports LLC which in effect means they are holding a position over the club. It's not possible to see if there are any charges over Bydand as it's a Delaware LLC and as such almost impossible to find out any information about. Considering the turmoil in the financial markets at the moment, the biggest risk to Hibs appears to be these charges. I don't suppose we would ever find out if there are any further charges up the chain until any rights are exercised but I do think it's a risk that needs to be discussed.

[green day]

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I haven't seen these charges over HFC's assets discussed at all on this board. I don't suppose we would ever find out if there are any further charges up the chain until any rights are exercised but I do think it's a risk that needs to be discussed.

Discussed extensively at the time of RG takeover - but as you point out, times have changed considerably since then.

[matty_f]

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There's a couple of mistakes in your statements above:

- The accounts haven't been filed yet - they are to be filed by 31 March at the latest. The later than normal filing struck me as a little unusual but it's not a major concern. I presume there's nothing to hide in the accounts.

- There are two charges held over the assets of the club (one being over the training ground and one being over the stadium itself). These were registered on 16 July and 12 August and held by Bydand Sports LLC (RG's Holding Company) over the club:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

I haven't seen these charges over HFC's assets discussed at all on this board. The major concern is whether anyone has a charge over the assets of Bydand Sports LLC which in effect means they are holding a position over the club. It's not possible to see if there are any charges over Bydand as it's a Delaware LLC and as such almost impossible to find out any information about. Considering the turmoil in the financial markets at the moment, the biggest risk to Hibs appears to be these charges. I don't suppose we would ever find out if there are any further charges up the chain until any rights are exercised but I do think it's a risk that needs to be discussed.

Power has confirmed above that they have been filed.

My understanding is that while there is a standing charge held, it is irrelevant unless money is borrowed from Bydand - we haven't borrowed anything therefore it's not active.

The charge is in place to give us the option of borrowing if we need it.

[Peevemor]

The fact that the charges are in place means that RG can bale out the club with immediate effect if need be, knowing that the mechanism is in place to protect his money.

[Caversham Green]

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Power has confirmed above that they have been filed.

My understanding is that while there is a standing charge held, it is irrelevant unless money is borrowed from Bydand - we haven't borrowed anything therefore it's not active.

The charge is in place to give us the option of borrowing if we need it.

The accounts still aren't available at Companies House. I don't know the arrangement at Hibs but it's often the case in smaller companies that the auditor takes care of the Companies House filing so the delay may be down to them. Plenty of shareholders have seen the accounts and no real concerns have been raised to I wouldn't be concerned about anything being hidden in them (that's to cocteautwin). Unless RG is a Romanov type character I'm not greatly concerned about the charges either. They're common business practice and Ron doesn't seem to be the sort of person that would be lending us other people's money.

[cocteautwin]

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The accounts still aren't available at Companies House. I don't know the arrangement at Hibs but it's often the case in smaller companies that the auditor takes care of the Companies House filing so the delay may be down to them. Plenty of shareholders have seen the accounts and no real concerns have been raised to I wouldn't be concerned about anything being hidden in them (that's to cocteautwin). Unless RG is a Romanov type character I'm not greatly concerned about the charges either. They're common business practice and Ron doesn't seem to be the sort of person that would be lending us other people's money.

The potential problem isn’t the charge over HFC assets by Bydand it’s the unknown possible charge over Bydand’s assets by some party that we can’t see due to the secrecy rules of Delaware LLCs.

It’s the one black mark on HFC’s finances and in the current financial climate I think our supporters or HSL should be vocal about having the charges removed.