Since 1875 - Safe Standing Survey

[ABZHFC]

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So the wants of parents taking younger supporters shouldn't come at the expense of other fans because they want to have a drink and 'let loose'?

Bizarre.

Didn't realise there was a supporter hierarchy.

In the specific terms of creating an atmosphere, there is a supporter hierarchy, and unsurprisingly the singing section (and indeed any other fans who want to stand and sing for 90 minutes) are top of it. That should not be a controversial thing to say, it is just true.

And yes, there has been a real problem with the sanitisation of football grounds in Scotland, largely down to the tireless work of Police Scotland ensuring they justify their annual budget. This has happened with the help of chairmen and women up and down Scotland, but Dempster has been particularly disappointing at times on this issue, especially considering how good she was at helping to accommodate the Motherwell Bois when she was at Fir Park.

Not every stand has to be 'family friendly', it is fine to have one section of the ground where that is the case, but it sucks the atmosphere out of the stadium if you try and make every stand like that. Therefore, we need to talk about radically changing Easter Road's layout, and if moving the family section to another part of the ground in order to accommodate those who will make a great atmosphere is needed, then so should be it.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Football IS one massive pissing contest and about trying to outdo your rivals. A noisy full singing section visible on TV would help improve the image of the club to prospective signing targets, sponsors, fans, tv deals etc...no doubt about that.

Barry Hearn gets it I'm amazed so many still dont.

Absolutely bang on mate, and it really is quite surprising that the folk who ... A) Run this club ..... and B) Support it, seem so determined to ignore that fact. In entertainment image is absolutely massive, as is audience perception of what they are going to experience, and especially to the audience you are trying to target, there's a multi million pound industry based on it FFS ... Its why for example Bruce Springsteen doesn't go on stage wearing sequins like Liberace did. It's why the darts is now massive, because the audience is fully engaged and not treated like an annoyance for the players like it was in the early days ... folk see it on the telly and want to go along because it looks like fun .... in fact it probably wouldn't be a lie to say the darts is secondary to being part of the crowd for the folk who pay to get in.

Folk who say what the stands at a football ground look and sound like on the telly doesn't matter are absolutely deluding themselves. If you were a neutral with the choice to go to any game in Britain without the standard of football being a factor where would you choose to go based on what you saw on the telly ... Anfield with 10,000 behind the goal making a racket or Easter Road with 700 spattered at one end and no visible or for the most part audible measurable number of fans dedicated to noisily backing their team.

If you were a kid living in Edinburgh and your dad or other relative took you to Easter Road and Tynecastle ... what criteria would influence your eventual decision as to which club to eventually go with? Probably the ground with the best atmosphere ... at the moment there probably isn't much difference between the two .... but looking at Hibs reluctance to create a ( for want of a better word ) Kop end in the FF lower, if I was the owner of Hearts I would be totally busting a gut to turn Tynecastle's Gorgie Road stand into a 3,000 space standing area and encouraging the club's fans to fill it .... knowing that by doing so I would be making Tynecastle a far more attractive proposition to potential new supporters than Easter Road could ever be. Thankfully the folk who actually do run Hearts seem to be as blinkered and un tuned in as the folk running Hibs are.

I saw a wee clip on facebook from Saturday's game of Aberdeen's experimental standing section at the end opposite the Dick Donald stand. They were only playing Dumbarton, but from the wee clip I saw the 2000 or so fans in that stand made a far more impressive noise than anything ER has ever produced at a similar game ... and that from a set of fans who in the past have been criticised by their own club for sitting on their hands.

So basically .... Folk can refuse to countenance a standing section comprising the whole of the FF lower for whatever reasons they see fit. But if one of those reasons is that it wouldn't make a huge difference to the atmosphere at ER and improve the clubs image on TV and elsewhere, while at the same time making Hibs more attractive to new supporters, especially impressionable kids .. they are wrong, its that simple.

[bigwheel]

I’m relaxed about a safe standing area...be good to give it a go..

Not sure it will make much of a difference tbh...the singing section(s) at our ground..in FF upper and section 43 seems to be standing areas already ...

Out of interest- Why do people feel this will be better ? Seems like the new safe standing areas have a bit more space between fans - might end up slightly less atmospheric...

[Since452]

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I’m relaxed about a safe standing area...be good to give it a go..

Not sure it will make much of a difference tbh...the singing section(s) at our ground..in FF upper and section 43 seems to be standing areas already ...

Out of interest- Why do people feel this will be better ? Seems like the new safe standing areas have a bit more space between fans - might end up slightly less atmospheric...

Ideally for me anyway it would be great to have an as big as possible intimidating standing section right behind the goals with flags, drums etc. It's our stadium so we should be using it to our advantage as much as we can. I don't think any away fans should be behind the goals either. Why should we give an away team the boost of shooting in to their own fans? I don't think we help ourselves at Easter Road

[bigwheel]

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Ideally for me anyway it would be great to have an as big as possible intimidating standing section right behind the goals with flags, drums etc. It's our stadium so we should be using it to our advantage as much as we can. I don't think any away fans should be behind the goals either. Why should we give an away team the boost of shooting in to their own fans? I don't think we help ourselves at Easter Road

I quite like atmosphere at both ends ..don’t mind away support cheering on their teams...I can see your logic for the behind the goals element for us.

[JimBHibees]

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Absolutely bang on mate, and it really is quite surprising that the folk who ... A) Run this club ..... and B) Support it, seem so determined to ignore that fact. In entertainment image is absolutely massive, as is audience perception of what they are going to experience, and especially to the audience you are trying to target, there's a multi million pound industry based on it FFS ... Its why for example Bruce Springsteen doesn't go on stage wearing sequins like Liberace did. It's why the darts is now massive, because the audience is fully engaged and not treated like an annoyance for the players like it was in the early days ... folk see it on the telly and want to go along because it looks like fun .... in fact it probably wouldn't be a lie to say the darts is secondary to being part of the crowd for the folk who pay to get in.

Folk who say what the stands at a football ground look and sound like on the telly doesn't matter are absolutely deluding themselves. If you were a neutral with the choice to go to any game in Britain without the standard of football being a factor where would you choose to go based on what you saw on the telly ... Anfield with 10,000 behind the goal making a racket or Easter Road with 700 spattered at one end and no visible or for the most part audible measurable number of fans dedicated to noisily backing their team.

If you were a kid living in Edinburgh and your dad or other relative took you to Easter Road and Tynecastle ... what criteria would influence your eventual decision as to which club to eventually go with? Probably the ground with the best atmosphere ... at the moment there probably isn't much difference between the two .... but looking at Hibs reluctance to create a ( for want of a better word ) Kop end in the FF lower, if I was the owner of Hearts I would be totally busting a gut to turn Tynecastle's Gorgie Road stand into a 3,000 space standing area and encouraging the club's fans to fill it .... knowing that by doing so I would be making Tynecastle a far more attractive proposition to potential new supporters than Easter Road could ever be. Thankfully the folk who actually do run Hearts seem to be as blinkered and un tuned in as the folk running Hibs are.

I saw a wee clip on facebook from Saturday's game of Aberdeen's experimental standing section at the end opposite the Dick Donald stand. They were only playing Dumbarton, but from the wee clip I saw the 2000 or so fans in that stand made a far more impressive noise than anything ER has ever produced at a similar game ... and that from a set of fans who in the past have been criticised by their own club for sitting on their hands.

So basically .... Folk can refuse to countenance a standing section comprising the whole of the FF lower for whatever reasons they see fit. But if one of those reasons is that it wouldn't make a huge difference to the atmosphere at ER and improve the clubs image on TV and elsewhere, while at the same time making Hibs more attractive to new supporters, especially impressionable kids .. they are wrong, its that simple.

Agree with all of that. Occasionally watch MLS highlights and it seems every team has a singing section mostly right behind one of the goals. Makes for an amazing atmosphere in some of these games and the fans look like they are having a great time and are genuinely engaged. Hopefully this is one of the ideas for improving fans experience Ron is proposing.

[RIP]

The East Stand has had a Singing Section for over thirty years near the away support. Several hundred supporters who have stood in that area and the last ten years with younger fans moving in.

The group known as Sect43 then Since1875 created a breakaway and moved to the front of 43. After a few jumped the wall the club management gave them a corner high in the FF away from the pitch.

Since they left the top of Section43 the atmosphere at Easter Road has gone from the best in Scotland to one of the poorest. Even small SPL teams away supports outsing us now.

All they (and we) see from the South and S43 is a hundred or so young lads jumping about in the distance banging a drum and waving the odd flag or two. These away supports even sing ‘what the f hell is that’ ridiculing the size of our new ‘singing section’

The exception are the displays which look excellent. I’m also aware that their top corner location limits growth. But some of their older guys have already moved their STs back into S43 this season. So in my opinion, splitting up the singers into two areas has diluted the atmosphere we had developed in seasons 2010 to 2012

I’ve no doubt the young guys up there have a whale of a time. But the vocal support for the club at home games has been the loser. A return of the most vocal and colourful fans to the East would be a massive boost to the club, the players and to our enjoyment at games.

[Andy74]

The whole empty seats in the FF thing is boring now.

We seem to be really happy seeing the season ticket numbers get higher. People who buy tickets for their kids are part of getting those numbers. Kids don’t always want to go though or parents might not think every game is suitable for them.

It’s important we keep that feed if future fans though, and it’s important that we get the money for those season tickets in.

So what if some seats are sold and not used every game? There are still seats to buy for others that want to come.

As for safe standing. I’m not sure what difference it makes for the added expense. Everyone is free to create atmosphere any time they want currently.

[JXM73]

FF lower, start in a corner and if proven a success expand it...

[Since452]

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The East Stand has had a Singing Section for over thirty years near the away support. Several hundred supporters who have stood in that area and the last ten years with younger fans moving in.

The group known as Sect43 then Since1875 created a breakaway and moved to the front of 43. After a few jumped the wall the club management gave them a corner high in the FF away from the pitch.

Since they left the top of Section43 the atmosphere at Easter Road has gone from the best in Scotland to one of the poorest. Even small SPL teams away supports outsing us now.

All they (and we) see from the South and S43 is a hundred or so young lads jumping about in the distance banging a drum and waving the odd flag or two. These away supports even sing ‘what the f hell is that’ ridiculing the size of our new ‘singing section’

The exception are the displays which look excellent. I’m also aware that their top corner location limits growth. But some of their older guys have already moved their STs back into S43 this season. So in my opinion, splitting up the singers into two areas has diluted the atmosphere we had developed in seasons 2010 to 2012

I’ve no doubt the young guys up there have a whale of a time. But the vocal support for the club at home games has been the loser. A return of the most vocal and colourful fans to the East would be a massive boost to the club, the players and to our enjoyment at games.

Also from where they are most, if not all the east stand is hidden by the big windbreaker at the side of the stand. Worst place ever for a singing section

[SquashedFrogg]

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In the specific terms of creating an atmosphere, there is a supporter hierarchy, and unsurprisingly the singing section (and indeed any other fans who want to stand and sing for 90 minutes) are top of it. That should not be a controversial thing to say, it is just true.

In terms of all supporters being equal, I'll respectfully disagree with your view.

And yes, there has been a real problem with the sanitisation of football grounds in Scotland, largely down to the tireless work of Police Scotland ensuring they justify their annual budget. This has happened with the help of chairmen and women up and down Scotland, but Dempster has been particularly disappointing at times on this issue, especially considering how good she was at helping to accommodate the Motherwell Bois when she was at Fir Park.

I'll assume our CEO never accommodated the move to the FFU? I'd also add that my experience at ER during her period in charge has been absolutely fine. Not really sure the police part stacks up tbh.

Not every stand has to be 'family friendly', it is fine to have one section of the ground where that is the case, but it sucks the atmosphere out of the stadium if you try and make every stand like that. Therefore, we need to talk about radically changing Easter Road's layout, and if moving the family section to another part of the ground in order to accommodate those who will make a great atmosphere is needed, then so should be it.

Agree - not every stand has to be family friendly. But we currently have one - the FF Lower. Atmosphere was great in the East until a couple of season ago. One of the best/most intimidating for years. Now it's very quiet and more often than not it's the away fans I can hear.

I'm not against change. Nor against improving atmosphere. I guess my overall concern is that we end up looking for a solution to a problem that has been self-inflicted.

[SquashedFrogg]

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The whole empty seats in the FF thing is boring now.

We seem to be really happy seeing the season ticket numbers get higher. People who buy tickets for their kids are part of getting those numbers. Kids don’t always want to go though or parents might not think every game is suitable for them.

It’s important we keep that feed if future fans though, and it’s important that we get the money for those season tickets in.

So what if some seats are sold and not used every game? There are still seats to buy for others that want to come.

As for safe standing. I’m not sure what difference it makes for the added expense. Everyone is free to create atmosphere any time they want currently.

This entirely. I used to take my son to the FFL when he was younger. Great starting point for him before moving up to the East. He didn't go to every match for a number of reasons.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Agree with all of that. Occasionally watch MLS highlights and it seems every team has a singing section mostly right behind one of the goals. Makes for an amazing atmosphere in some of these games and the fans look like they are having a great time and are genuinely engaged. Hopefully this is one of the ideas for improving fans experience Ron is proposing.

I've cited MLS a few times in these discussions for the reason's you've given here. The efforts of LA FC and Portland Timbers compare to anything in Europe from clubs of a similar size and beats most of them. Practically every new stadium being built is including a standing area behind one goal as a matter of course.

Given the background of our owner he simply must be aware of how stuff works in the USA and the impressive atmosphere generated in a lot of the stadiums, most of which are not much bigger than Easter Road. Nobody, but nobody is more aware of presentation, image and customer requirements than the Americans ..... If they are buying into this it would surprise me greatly if Ron Gordon chose to ignore it.

[Edinburgh Green]

FF for me, with the view to expand it if a success. The sound will carry a lot better from the lower tier as seen when teams have the small band of singers in the south, then those that have remained in the east will no doubt join in.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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The East Stand has had a Singing Section for over thirty years near the away support. Several hundred supporters who have stood in that area and the last ten years with younger fans moving in.

The group known as Sect43 then Since1875 created a breakaway and moved to the front of 43. After a few jumped the wall the club management gave them a corner high in the FF away from the pitch.

Since they left the top of Section43 the atmosphere at Easter Road has gone from the best in Scotland to one of the poorest. Even small SPL teams away supports outsing us now.

All they (and we) see from the South and S43 is a hundred or so young lads jumping about in the distance banging a drum and waving the odd flag or two. These away supports even sing ‘what the f hell is that’ ridiculing the size of our new ‘singing section’

The exception are the displays which look excellent. I’m also aware that their top corner location limits growth. But some of their older guys have already moved their STs back into S43 this season. So in my opinion, splitting up the singers into two areas has diluted the atmosphere we had developed in seasons 2010 to 2012

I’ve no doubt the young guys up there have a whale of a time. But the vocal support for the club at home games has been the loser. A return of the most vocal and colourful fans to the East would be a massive boost to the club, the players and to our enjoyment at games.

The bottom third of the East would be fine for family tickets and be exactly the same capacity as the FF lower. As for relocating the singers to the east, that was fraught with problems when they were there before. Their own self contained 2000 capacity area in the FF lower would resolve all of that and put them front and centre within the stadium ... IE exactly where they should be.

[vahibbie]

The survey says "due to the current view of fans the safe standing would have to be in a corner of FF or east stand". Is that the actual view of the fans, seems to me FF lower right behind the goal is most requested spot...if no it should be😁

[Billy Whizz]

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The survey says "due to the current view of fans the safe standing would have to be in a corner of FF or east stand". Is that the actual view of the fans, seems to me FF lower right behind the goal is most requested spot...if no it should be😁

But anyone right or left of them, could have an obstructed view, of the section is standing
Presume that’s why they have to be in the corner

[Keith_M]

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The survey says "due to the current view of fans the safe standing would have to be in a corner of FF or east stand". Is that the actual view of the fans, seems to me FF lower right behind the goal is most requested spot...if no it should be��

It refers to a group of people standing that are physically restricting the view of others.

Imagine you had a group of Fans standing at the front of the middle section in the FF Lower. A lot of people are going to be (rightly) p1ssed off that they now have to stand for a whole game because their view has now been restricted.... or in the case of the kids, they can no longer see parts of the pitch at all.

Some people (the ones proposing locating it there) seem to have no consideration for their fellow Fans.

[SChibs]

If fans from the East joined the section in the FF it would show the club there is intent from the fans to create a loud vibrant presence behind the goals and they would be more inclined to work with the section on things like safe standing.

It works both ways. Things change so the East doesn't have to be our singing section as most people agree it would be much more effective behind the goal.

Imo the people who want to make some noise should bite the bullet and come over to the F5 and make some noise to show the club what we can do. In the long run it will make attending Easter Road a much better experience and will spur on the team much more than what we have now.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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So the wants of parents taking younger supporters shouldn't come at the expense of other fans because they want to have a drink and 'let loose'?

Bizarre.

Didn't realise there was a supporter hierarchy.

One directly benefits the team more than the other. If you want to call that a hierarchy then that's on you.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Also, was just watching highlights of our last game against Dundee United at home.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vide...3-0-dundee-utd

Just look at the FF Lower for McGinn's goal. How have we gone from that to a half-empty (if lucky) stand?

I know why, it's because people want to secure their tickets for Hearts in the derby. We can dance around that and pretend it's not the case, but it is. Some supporters are more concerned by Hearts than Hibs, and will happily sacrifice how our ground looks and sounds to get it.

It is they, not the singing section, who should be viewed as the selfish ones. Simple as that.

[Keith_M]

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One directly benefits the team more than the other. If you want to call that a hierarchy then that's on you.

Wow!

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I know why, it's because people want to secure their tickets for Hearts in the derby. We can dance around that and pretend it's not the case, but it is. Some supporters are more concerned by Hearts than Hibs, and will happily sacrifice how our ground looks and sounds to get it.

It is they, not the singing section, who should be viewed as the selfish ones. Simple as that.

Keep digging mate

[Blaster]

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Also, was just watching highlights of our last game against Dundee United at home.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vide...3-0-dundee-utd

Just look at the FF Lower for McGinn's goal. How have we gone from that to a half-empty (if lucky) stand?

I know why, it's because people want to secure their tickets for Hearts in the derby. We can dance around that and pretend it's not the case, but it is. Some supporters are more concerned by Hearts than Hibs, and will happily sacrifice how our ground looks and sounds to get it.

It is they, not the singing section, who should be viewed as the selfish ones. Simple as that.

Look at you mr superfan

Such disregard for fellow supporters to appease 250 fans. You’re creating divisions in our fan base with such comments

[HibeeHibernian4]

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Wow!

Go on then.

Outline to me how a family who turns up at Easter Road, sits on their hands for ninety minutes, and possibly even leaves early to beat the traffic, contributes more to the atmosphere (which is directly beneficial to the team) than a group who are singing throughout the game and organising displays etc.

I'm all ears.

My hunch is that you're in the former group, and you believe that the latter are just a bunch of daft wee laddies who will grow out of it, rather than being key to the future of Hibs' brand - if we're going to use such terrible, corporate speak to justify why having an ultras group is good.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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Look at you mr superfan

Such disregard for fellow supporters to appease 250 fans. You’re creating divisions in our fan base with such comments

Not in the singing section so I'm not trying to speak for them, although I think at least a few of them would agree that some Hibs fans appear to be stubborn at best about change.

Please justify the massive difference between the FF Lower's attendance in 2016/17 and 2017/18, without accounting for the fact that some Hibs fans simply only care about watching Hibs when it's against Hearts. The Tynecastle ticket scramble also proves this.

Of course, Dundee United was an exceptionally big attendance, but look at other games such as Falkirk at home:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYzhStcH6VY

Ayr at home in September? Similar story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyCaKVLkG-4&t

If you are so linear in your thinking that you think them moving would appease 250 fans, rather than significantly improving the atmosphere at Easter Road and making coming along easier to sell to the casual fan, then I'm not sure what to say really.

[Andy74]

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Go on then.

Outline to me how a family who turns up at Easter Road, sits on their hands for ninety minutes, and possibly even leaves early to beat the traffic, contributes more to the atmosphere (which is directly beneficial to the team) than a group who are singing throughout the game and organising displays etc.

I'm all ears.

My hunch is that you're in the former group, and you believe that the latter are just a bunch of daft wee laddies who will grow out of it, rather than being key to the future of Hibs' brand - if we're going to use such terrible, corporate speak to justify why having an ultras group is good.

You’re struggling now.

We need fans in the door to pay for the team. We need that to happen over a long time, with new supporters coming through and making it a habit to watch Hibs.

Atmosphere is part of football but so are all sorts of paying fans.

You’ll also find that most of the families are folk who were making much better atmospheres without any schemes to encourage them a long time before you!

Nothing is stopping those that want to create an atmosphere from doing so.

Attacking families to make some sort of point just doesn’t help your case. In fact it makes you look very ignorant indeed.

I wonder what profile of fan creates the most money for Hibs?

[SquashedFrogg]

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One directly benefits the team more than the other. If you want to call that a hierarchy then that's on you.

By definition you're describing a hierarchy. So technically it's on you I'm afraid.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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You’ll also find that most of the families are folk who were making much better atmospheres without any schemes to encourage them a long time before you!

Perfect, so we agree that unallocated seating (or more specifically terracing) is an absolute priority, and that younger supporters are completely hampered by the sanitisation of modern football through all-seater stadia.

The reason why atmospheres were better back then (and I was there a lot of weeks despite your implication otherwise) is because more people were willing to join in with singing. There is a type of Hibs fan nowadays who seems to have zero interest in this, and indeed views those who do like to sing with some sort of suspicion.

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Nothing is stopping those that want to create an atmosphere from doing so.

Apart from:

- being shunted into the corner of the FF Upper to appease stubborn fans
- being harassed and filmed routinely by Police Scotland at away games
- being viewed by a % of the Hibs support as just some guys banging a drum, rather than a key part of the support
- being unable to drink at the ground because of draconian laws that are forty years out of date
- being told that safe standing won't be prioritised over the playing budget, and then pissing away said budget on dross like Vela
- having a safety officer who cannot understand that legality does not equate to morality, and as such seems to defend the ban of pyrotechnics with "but they're illegal!!!", rather than justify why

There will, in the next twenty years or so, be a trend towards improving the atmosphere in Scottish grounds. I'd sure like to think I was on the right side of that movement, rather than working obstinately against it.

[Blaster]

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Not in the singing section so I'm not trying to speak for them, although I think at least a few of them would agree that some Hibs fans appear to be stubborn at best about change.

Please justify the massive difference between the FF Lower's attendance in 2016/17 and 2017/18, without accounting for the fact that some Hibs fans simply only care about watching Hibs when it's against Hearts. The Tynecastle ticket scramble also proves this.

Of course, Dundee United was an exceptionally big attendance, but look at other games such as Falkirk at home:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYzhStcH6VY

Ayr at home in September? Similar story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyCaKVLkG-4&t

If you are so linear in your thinking that you think them moving would appease 250 fans, rather than significantly improving the atmosphere at Easter Road and making coming along easier to sell to the casual fan, then I'm not sure what to say really.

I can’t answer all the questions just as you can’t either. First point though is you cannot upgrade a child ticket to adult so not an option for hearts home games.

My son and my mum sit in the FF Lower and miss a couple of games a season and it’s tiresome hearing them get tarred with the same brush as people who attend less frequently. So I get a bit defensive

People suggest moving them to the south lower. So we want our family section to be permanently beside the away fans. Really. There are bams in every away support so the family section shouldn’t be there

I am supporting a singing section but for me it should the East.

[Frogga]

Can we not turn FF Lower into full standing area with family section in FF Upper. Seems sensible to me.

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