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  1. #31
    @hibs.net private member Bostonhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McKenzie View Post
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    Hopefully. No loans, permanent deals only. Gullan deserves his chance to make an impact at least off the bench. Realistically the best we will do is top 6 so perfect opportunity to blood some of the youngsters in second part of the season
    Agree with this, a goal scorer in the if they're good enough they're old enough mode is overdue.

    I know it's raith but....

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  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I've not seen enough of Gullan to comment but I'm not convinced about any of the other youngsters - Shaw, Fraser Murray or Mackie are good enough. I realise this isn't a popular opinion.

    Porteous is good enough.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Whizz View Post
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    Sorry are we talking Hammer or Mackie
    Mackie

  5. #34
    Every time Murray gets a chance he does well enough I think his last 2 starts heís had a assist in each game

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I've not seen enough of Gullan to comment but I'm not convinced about any of the other youngsters - Shaw, Fraser Murray or Mackie are good enough. I realise this isn't a popular opinion.

    Porteous is good enough.
    Iíd agree with this. I really donít get the clamour for Murray to be in the team. Heís easily dispossessed of the ball and is painfully slow (like many of our players to be fair).

  7. #36
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    I wonder if Jamie Gullan is going to be loaned to a Championship or lower Premiership team to help him develop. Maybe we felt he needed a stiffer challenge to develop further.
    Has anyone heard anything?

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    Iíd agree with this. I really donít get the clamour for Murray to be in the team. Heís easily dispossessed of the ball and is painfully slow (like many of our players to be fair).
    It takes time for young players to adapt to first team football. Another player who needs more game time.

  9. #38
    Testimonial Due SquashedFrogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    Iíd agree with this. I really donít get the clamour for Murray to be in the team. Heís easily dispossessed of the ball and is painfully slow (like many of our players to be fair).
    Painfully slow? Not sure how you quantify his pace/speed?
    I'd say he's anything but painfully slow. Would you describe Scott Allan in terms of pace?

    For me he's a cracking young player. Good touch and vision. Can play in a number of attacking positions. His wee dink through to McNulty v the sheep last season was sublime.

    All IMO of course.

  10. #39
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    The development of this particular group of players by the club has been pretty shocking really.

    The team won the Scottish youth cup and pretty much had the better of all other clubs including Old Firm. To have one player make the break through in Porteous is pretty poor.

    The merry go round of managers hasnt helped but Murray Shaw should be first team regulars by now.

    Heckys development of them was one of the reasons I believe he was sacked. He smashed Oli Shaws confidence to bits. Bringing him on with 5-10 mins to go, totally out of position out wide and publically slaughtering him was terrible man management.

    Dempster once stated Shaw was one of the best youngsters in Europe for his age, which was maybe slightly exaggerated but what we had was a striker banging them in the development side and was head and shoulders above everyone for his age. A Scottish under 21 internationalist who has all the attributes to be a top striker who is now being suggested on here to go out on loan to Raith ******g Rovers! Absolutely criminal imo.

  11. #40
    Coaching Staff MWHIBBIES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo6-2 View Post
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    The development of this particular group of players by the club has been pretty shocking really.

    The team won the Scottish youth cup and pretty much had the better of all other clubs including Old Firm. To have one player make the break through in Porteous is pretty poor.

    The merry go round of managers hasnt helped but Murray Shaw should be first team regulars by now.

    Heckys development of them was one of the reasons I believe he was sacked. He smashed Oli Shaws confidence to bits. Bringing him on with 5-10 mins to go, totally out of position out wide and publically slaughtering him was terrible man management.

    Dempster once stated Shaw was one of the best youngsters in Europe for his age, which was maybe slightly exaggerated but what we had was a striker banging them in the development side and was head and shoulders above everyone for his age. A Scottish under 21 internationalist who has all the attributes to be a top striker who is now being suggested on here to go out on loan to Raith ******g Rovers! Absolutely criminal imo.
    Couldn't agree more.

  12. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo6-2 View Post
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    The development of this particular group of players by the club has been pretty shocking really.

    The team won the Scottish youth cup and pretty much had the better of all other clubs including Old Firm. To have one player make the break through in Porteous is pretty poor.

    The merry go round of managers hasnt helped but Murray Shaw should be first team regulars by now.

    Heckys development of them was one of the reasons I believe he was sacked. He smashed Oli Shaws confidence to bits. Bringing him on with 5-10 mins to go, totally out of position out wide and publically slaughtering him was terrible man management.

    Dempster once stated Shaw was one of the best youngsters in Europe for his age, which was maybe slightly exaggerated but what we had was a striker banging them in the development side and was head and shoulders above everyone for his age. A Scottish under 21 internationalist who has all the attributes to be a top striker who is now being suggested on here to go out on loan to Raith ******g Rovers! Absolutely criminal imo.
    Depends how you look at it. I donít think Shaw ever looked like he was going to develop in to a top striker. He showed some promise here and there but not enough IMO.

    Football is littered with players that Ďhad a chanceí but ended up nowhere. Some responsibility has to fall their way surely? I think weíve simply always had better strikers on the books than him.

  13. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES View Post
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    Couldn't agree more.
    Yep, how you can say Shaw isnt good enough based on first team game time is mad

  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    Yep, how you can say Shaw isnt good enough based on first team game time is mad
    Good enough for what though? First pick? Backup? Cheap squad filler? I like Shaw, and think he has a case to make that we havenít managed the development and first team experience of the likes of himself. Mackie, Murray & Porteous well at all. However Porteous has faced the same challenges and established himself anyway. There comes a time when we have to accept players wonít make it and time to give the next crop their chance (and actually give them their chance this time round!)

  15. #44
    Coaching Staff MWHIBBIES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modfather View Post
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    Good enough for what though? First pick? Backup? Cheap squad filler? I like Shaw, and think he has a case to make that we havenít managed the development and first team experience of the likes of himself. Mackie, Murray & Porteous well at all. However Porteous has faced the same challenges and established himself anyway. There comes a time when we have to accept players wonít make it and time to give the next crop their chance (and actually give them their chance this time round!)
    Shaw done well and scored goals when given chances though. If Kamberi and Doidge got injured for months like Hanlon and McGregor then sure, it would be comparable. Porteous didn't get regular games till he had to.

    Shaw is definitely good enough to be a solid back up and thats absolutely fine.

  16. #45
    Testimonial Due weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    I don't see the development team at all but from watching them in the first XI I would say that Shaw is a squad player at best and may leave to play somewhere like St Johnstone, Dundee, Falkirk and Murray will not make it at the top level in Scotland, again probably a player for the likes of the teams mentioned. I would suggest that from my limited views of Murray that Wotherspoon was better than him and he struggled for game time and also left us

  17. #46
    Coaching Staff MWHIBBIES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    I don't see the development team at all but from watching them in the first XI I would say that Shaw is a squad player at best and may leave to play somewhere like St Johnstone, Dundee, Falkirk and Murray will not make it at the top level in Scotland, again probably a player for the likes of the teams mentioned. I would suggest that from my limited views of Murray that Wotherspoon was better than him and he struggled for game time and also left us
    Wotherspoon was bizarre, he definitely didn't struggle for game time. Only missed 4 league matches then was freed. Won the Scottish cup 12 months later as Hibs got relegated. Think Stubbs could've done wonders with him, given him real confidence.

  18. #47
    Have said it for years....the progression of youth to first team under Eddie May is less than impressive and will probably continue to be so as long as he is there.

  19. #48
    Testimonial Due weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES View Post
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    Wotherspoon was bizarre, he definitely didn't struggle for game time. Only missed 4 league matches then was freed. Won the Scottish cup 12 months later as Hibs got relegated. Think Stubbs could've done wonders with him, given him real confidence.
    On reflection, your right. But I think he was better than Murray. If we seriously want to be challenging then Murray isn't the answer. Glad Wotherspoon won the cup as if I recall correctly he didn't even make the squads for our finals when here.

  20. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    I don't see the development team at all but from watching them in the first XI I would say that Shaw is a squad player at best and may leave to play somewhere like St Johnstone, Dundee, Falkirk and Murray will not make it at the top level in Scotland, again probably a player for the likes of the teams mentioned. I would suggest that from my limited views of Murray that Wotherspoon was better than him and he struggled for game time and also left us
    Wotherspoon is a good example. Left after limited game time here and forged a very good career at a club who consistently finished above us. Porteous has possibly been developed too quickly but is lucky in that he has the support of the fans even though he has made lots of mistakes. He looks to have that gallous streak where mistakes won't bother him and I'm sure he will make it if he can learn. He has the opportunity because he is getting game time.

    Murray looks a player to me but he and Shaw need to play. If the current manager is of the same mind as the previous 2 then get them out on loan to develop because they will go nowhere sitting on the bench and playing development games.

  21. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    Yep, how you can say Shaw isnt good enough based on first team game time is mad
    Heís hardly figured this season but he played 56 times in the two previous seasons. Thatís a lot more opportunity than most players coming through an academy will get.

  22. #51
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES View Post
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    Wotherspoon was bizarre, he definitely didn't struggle for game time. Only missed 4 league matches then was freed. Won the Scottish cup 12 months later as Hibs got relegated. Think Stubbs could've done wonders with him, given him real confidence.
    Playing him way out of position was why he left, I spoke to him on the bus going to that cup final and he gave that as his reason for leaving. He's played as a proper attacking midfielder at St Johnstone and has done well for them.

  23. #52
    First Team Regular CorrieHibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo6-2 View Post
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    The development of this particular group of players by the club has been pretty shocking really.

    The team won the Scottish youth cup and pretty much had the better of all other clubs including Old Firm. To have one player make the break through in Porteous is pretty poor.

    The merry go round of managers hasnt helped but Murray Shaw should be first team regulars by now.

    Heckys development of them was one of the reasons I believe he was sacked. He smashed Oli Shaws confidence to bits. Bringing him on with 5-10 mins to go, totally out of position out wide and publically slaughtering him was terrible man management.

    Dempster once stated Shaw was one of the best youngsters in Europe for his age, which was maybe slightly exaggerated but what we had was a striker banging them in the development side and was head and shoulders above everyone for his age. A Scottish under 21 internationalist who has all the attributes to be a top striker who is now being suggested on here to go out on loan to Raith ******g Rovers! Absolutely criminal imo.
    Well said.

    Especially when we look at Motherwell whom are doing extremely well whilst playing a lot of youngsters from their development team.

  24. #53
    Wotherspoon isnít comparable to Murray.

    Played far far more games and had showed a lot more ability imo, not even close. Must have played more than 100 games for us and was regularly a starter either out wide, central or right back.

    Wotherspoon is a decent SPFL player.

  25. #54
    Coaching Staff jacomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo6-2 View Post
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    The development of this particular group of players by the club has been pretty shocking really.

    The team won the Scottish youth cup and pretty much had the better of all other clubs including Old Firm. To have one player make the break through in Porteous is pretty poor.

    The merry go round of managers hasnt helped but Murray Shaw should be first team regulars by now.

    Heckys development of them was one of the reasons I believe he was sacked. He smashed Oli Shaws confidence to bits. Bringing him on with 5-10 mins to go, totally out of position out wide and publically slaughtering him was terrible man management.

    Dempster once stated Shaw was one of the best youngsters in Europe for his age, which was maybe slightly exaggerated but what we had was a striker banging them in the development side and was head and shoulders above everyone for his age. A Scottish under 21 internationalist who has all the attributes to be a top striker who is now being suggested on here to go out on loan to Raith ******g Rovers! Absolutely criminal imo.

    Agree with all this.

    We tend to bemoan our youngsters for not being good enough but as a group they excelled. So you have to start wondering why Hibs are failing to bring more young players through into the first team.

    Something in our set up isnít right.

  26. #55
    I think that itís all down to the dreadful recruitment in the summer.I think that those involved in that disastrous waste of resources still on the staff are instrumental in filling the squad with these no-hopers so as to justify bringing them to the club and resulting in a lack of game time for young players.That the head of recruitment has been promoted to director of football defies belief and is something I hope to be able to raise at the AGM.

  27. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Unseen work View Post
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    Wotherspoon isnít comparable to Murray.

    Played far far more games and had showed a lot more ability imo, not even close. Must have played more than 100 games for us and was regularly a starter either out wide, central or right back.

    Wotherspoon is a decent SPFL player.
    I had no idea he played so many games so you are spot on that he is not comparable to the current crop. I was surprised he left but looks like it was the right move for him.

  28. #57
    @hibs.net private member Billy Whizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie70 View Post
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    I had no idea he played so many games so you are spot on that he is not comparable to the current crop. I was surprised he left but looks like it was the right move for him.
    Left because Fenlon had treated him like crap. Didnít even meet the bench in the 2 Cup Finals, yet lesser players did!

  29. #58
    @hibs.net private member bingo70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacomo View Post
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    Agree with all this.

    We tend to bemoan our youngsters for not being good enough but as a group they excelled. So you have to start wondering why Hibs are failing to bring more young players through into the first team.

    Something in our set up isnít right.
    I think the problem is too many people put too much emphasis on the young teams being successful and winning trophies. Imo it means nothing, well itís great for the players but it means nothing in terms of their development to the first team.

    If the young team are winning trophies but theyíre beating teams who have all their best young players in the first team I know whoís got the most successful youth set up and itís not the ones lifting the trophies.

    I know itís not a popular opinion but the young players that canít break into the first team and keep their place simply arenít good enough. Football is a tough environment, if they canít break into the team and make an immediate impact they probably wonít get another chance. If they do get another chance they need to keep taking them, doing what Shaw has done will see him replaced, he wonít keep getting chances forever.

    I (think) i remember when Scott Brown and KT broke through, you knew straight away they would make it as they had that swagger, that arrogance and once they were in they wouldnít be giving up their place without a fight. I see that attitude with Porteous, I donít with Shaw, Murray or Mackie.

  30. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by jacomo View Post
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    Agree with all this.

    We tend to bemoan our youngsters for not being good enough but as a group they excelled. So you have to start wondering why Hibs are failing to bring more young players through into the first team.

    Something in our set up isnít right.
    Maybe itís not all to do with the set up at development level, maybe itís partly to do with what happens when they actually get in to the first team.

    Porteous, IMO, is suffering from not having enough players around him to help him. We have Ďgoodí pros in terms of the way the look after themselves and all that but are they capable of looking after the young players on the pitch?

    Murray is the only one who hasnít had a real crack at it. Shaw has made over 50 appearances and, IMO, itís just a case that heís not good enough. Iíve never felt he was going to make the position his own.

    Donít know what the answer is but I donít think there are many teams in the league who do a particularly good job at bringing young players through. Hamilton do it out of necessity. Motherwell are thrown round as an example but I donít think there are that many players in their first 11 who have come through their system.

  31. #60
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Could it not just be the case that the 3-4 young players who were good enough should've been sent on loan 2 years ago, instead they've hung around the squad as fillers with the odd few minutes here and there. Years ago these young lads got there experience from going on loans, just like Riordan, GOC, Hanlon etc.

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