Hibs Fans Most Critical in the League ?

[DH1875]

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We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

I think that's everything thats been wrong with us over the years. If these players have left because of the pressure of winning is too much then sack them. Hibs SHOULD be a top 3rd/4th team in the top division. I want winners in the team, not guys who think making top 6 is some sort of achievement.

[B.H.F.C]

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We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

Not many would be my guess. Most players that play for us, Hibs will be the biggest club they'll be at. Good players occasionally move on to better things.

Pretty rare that a player who doesn’t do well at us goes on to have a good career at a bigger club or at a higher level. There will be a few examples, but not that many in terms of how many come and go.

[DetroitHibs]

The young lads coming through should be better prepared too. They play these development games, no pressure, just enjoying the game and then don't know how to handle the pressure and fans when they play a real game.

[basehibby]

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We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

If there have been any then other clubs are welcome to them - we can do without faint hearted jessies who are scared to play in front of a crowd.

[jockodile]

There might be something in the critical nature of the suppprt but it is probably not materially different from the other clubs in the league.

Where there has been a problem over the years is the lack of killer instinct. Hibs have had a soft core and it was tolerated.

It was this that Neil Lennon was at his most successful at Hibs in reducing that. I hope Jack Ross has similar steel.

[The Leith Dutch]

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I understand what you are saying but I am Sorry I disagree if you are paying more year on year it definitely should make a difference. Hibs have under achieved for about 40 out of 50 years.

Should have been clear - I don't disagree we've underachieved.
Was more making the point that money only buys success directly if it's significant money.

[The Leith Dutch]

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I must have imagined Hibs winning three League Championships in five years or so. And also a couple of wins for Hearts.

You have to go back around 35 years for a League win for anyone bar Rangers or Celtc. Why count trophies won in the early 1980s but not those won in the 1940s through to the 1970s?

Was responding to the poster arguing that the stats posted by the guy were materially different.
Totally agree that there's no specific reason to include the 1980s but not other years.

We have, as others pointed out however, not achieved as much as we probably should have trophy wise.
Easy way to put the debate to bed would be a period of sustained success and trophies :D

[Onion]

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Our average league position over the past two decades is a bottom six team, not including relegations. Fans have a right to moan.

Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

Aye? What did we win under them excluding the 1st division / championship which you would expect any Hibs manager to achieve with the opposition we had to face. That's not to say they were bad managers, but they hardly support the case that the above failings you point out are the fault of any of the managers we have had ...... Stubbs was a quiet thoughtful manager, but I defy anybody to say they've seen a Hibs team with a better team spirit than his had or that they were a soft touch.

Having said that, there does seem to be something about this club which guarantees that 9 times out of 10 we will implode when it matters the most, no matter how good or tough a team we have. Our losing record ratio in cup finals has to be approaching some sort of world record and there are few clubs who could lose a second leg play off match at home with a 2 - 0 first leg win in its pocket, not even picking up a single yellow card in the process.

The thing that has always made a difference at Hibs has been the owner / chairman. Harry Swan, Tom Hart and to a lesser extent Tom Farmer. For a club like us a visionary owner is as important, perhaps more important, than who the manager is or what players we have. Its been a long long time since Hibs have had that type of owner .... Farmer was one in off field matters, but a 'haul' of two trophies in a 25 year tenure is not the stuff of legends .... or perhaps it is, which is a damning indictment of the historic on field efforts of the club.

If I do have a concern about Ron Gordon its that so far he hasn't given me the impression that he will be the dynamic go getting person this club needs to achieve what its capable of ... his approach seems to be very understated and concentrated just as much on Hibs as social asset for the community as Hibs successful club on the park ... I want a trophy room stuffed with awards from the SFA / SPFL ... and in my dreams UEFA .... not the Scottish government and ECC for our good works ... I have a season ticket for Easter Road and not Social Bite for a reason.

There are three areas the Ron Gordon era Hibernian football club has to concentrate on if we are to progress and I'll list them in what I think are the order of importance.

1) The income of this club has to be raised to a level where the average first team players basic salary is a minimum of £3,000 per week ... IMO that is the level where we will be able to attract players above the standard we have just now provided we back it up with a generous bonus scheme .. I know that will involve a basic outlay of around £3,500,000 a year for a 22 man first team squad, but it has to be an ambition.

2) Since the HTC was opened 12 years ago I am seriously struggling to think of one regular first team player it has produced with the exception of Ryan Porteous ... yes there have been a few who have made the first team and hung about the fringes like Fraser Murray and Oli Shaw, but nobody apart from Porteous has looked like becoming a regular starter. Any club looking for a regular conveyor belt of talent from its youth program will always be disappointed ... even Man Utd and Dundee Utd will attest to that ... but one player in 12 years is nothing short of abject failure and there has to be questions asked as to why that is.

3) And this is probably the most contentious one ... We must continue to improve the stadium, the ambition for this club must be to eventually have a fully enclosed ground with one way or another the corners filled in and a roof that's joined up all the way round the stadium. I know its down the list compared to the team on the park, but it all goes towards an ambition to make this club everything it can and should be and it shouldn't be neglected or ignored.

At the very least I want Ron Gordon when he stands up at the AGM in the new year to express an ambition that this is what he wants for the club. I have a horrible feeling I'm going to be disappointed.

[Paisley Hibby]

Don't think we're worse in general than any other team. But what we ARE bad for, in my opinion, is getting on the backs of particular players who the consensus agrees are useless/not hibs class/a wage thief/slow as a week in jail/worst ever in a hibs shirt (delete as applicable). Ironically, these are often the very players who are doing the important unseen work creating space for others to do the creative stuff. The best example I can think of is Stuart Lovell but more recent ones include Milligan and Whittaker.

[Cataplana]

What's hacking me off is the total absence of objective evidence to back up this claim.

R. Meldrew

[The Leith Dutch]

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Don't think we're worse in general than any other team. But what we ARE bad for, in my opinion, is getting on the backs of particular players who the consensus agrees are useless/not hibs class/a wage thief/slow as a week in jail/worst ever in a hibs shirt (delete as applicable). Ironically, these are often the very players who are doing the important unseen work creating space for others to do the creative stuff. The best example I can think of is Stuart Lovell but more recent ones include Milligan and Whittaker.

Nish springs to mind there too.
I remember him getting dog's abuse in a game at ER and you could see the nerves coming into his play.
He miscontrolled a couple of passes badly after some particularly vitriolic abuse.

Seems like a mad thing to do to me - shouting at your own players.

The bit about "wage thief" (or it's companion "imposter") also bugs me.
I've seen some poor players in a Hibs shirt but I seriously doubt many of them were doing it deliberately.

Off the top of my head I can think of Matt Doherty as a player who was maybe taking the piss and not trying.
Most of them were just players with limitations.

[Golden Bear]

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Nish springs to mind there too.
I remember him getting dog's abuse in a game at ER and you could see the nerves coming into his play.
He miscontrolled a couple of passes badly after some particularly vitriolic abuse.

Seems like a mad thing to do to me - shouting at your own players.

The bit about "wage thief" (or it's companion "imposter") also bugs me.
I've seen some poor players in a Hibs shirt but I seriously doubt many of them were doing it deliberately.

Off the top of my head I can think of Matt Doherty as a player who was maybe taking the piss and not trying.
Most of them were just players with limitations.

I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was being subjected to so much abuse from so called "Hibs fans" that he almost willed the Manager to sub him, which he eventually did.

[The Leith Dutch]

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I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was being subjected to so much abuse from so called "Hibs fans" that he almost willed the Manager to sub him, which he eventually did.

10th on the all time SPL scorers list too. And one of the only two players in the top 10 (Michael Higdon) never to have played for either of the ugly sisters.
Clearly wanted to make it work at Hibs too.

[Since452]

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Don't think we're worse in general than any other team. But what we ARE bad for, in my opinion, is getting on the backs of particular players who the consensus agrees are useless/not hibs class/a wage thief/slow as a week in jail/worst ever in a hibs shirt (delete as applicable). Ironically, these are often the very players who are doing the important unseen work creating space for others to do the creative stuff. The best example I can think of is Stuart Lovell but more recent ones include Milligan and Whittaker.

Stevie Mallan too which is unbelievable

[DH1875]

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10th on the all time SPL scorers list too. And one of the only two players in the top 10 (Michael Higdon) never to have played for either of the ugly sisters.
Clearly wanted to make it work at Hibs too.

Could be wrong but is he not a Hibs fan too?

[The Leith Dutch]

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Could be wrong but is he not a Hibs fan too?

That was always my understanding.
Sometimes that brings some odd nervousness too - always felt that was an issue with Danny Swanson too.

[Iggy Pope]

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Could be wrong but is he not a Hibs fan too?

He is, and a nice big fellah with it. Currently has a role coaching at the club.

[jgl07]

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Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

And all they won with Hibs was a second tier championship each.

Alex Miller, John Collins and Alan Stubbs have won actual silverware.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

And look what they have to show for it, a second division title apiece.

Meanwhile, in the real world where snarling bullies don't actually prosper merely by being snarling bullies, nice guys like Stubbs and Miller have won Hibs major honours.

[Hibeesmad]

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Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

And people still go on about them as if they preferred Butcher.

[Smartie]

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I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was being subjected to so much abuse from so called "Hibs fans" that he almost willed the Manager to sub him, which he eventually did.

I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was playing for Killie, and he was everything that we, as a team, were screaming out for at the time.

Nish wasn’t a bad player for us at all but he had a few stinkers, and we certainly helped contribute towards him maybe not quite achieving what he could/ should have with us.

[Keith_M]

As most of our older Fans will remember....

If the old North Stand* didn't like you, they made it very obvious (F'n booo!!!!), and the most memorable signing to win them over was Jackie Mac.

He had the misfortune to arrive at Hibs as part of a transfer deal that took Saint Patrick of Stanton to the Lesser Greens, so a lot of bitter feeling and resentment remained. Jackie won the Hibs support over big style and remains one of my favourite ever Hibbies... even though he had the misfortune to arrive at Hibs at the beginning of our slide into a decade of mediocrity.



* It was actually the North wing of the Main Stand, but everybody called it the North Stand

[Lancs Harp]

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Aye? What did we win under them excluding the 1st division / championship which you would expect any Hibs manager to achieve with the opposition we had to face. That's not to say they were bad managers, but they hardly support the case that the above failings you point out are the fault of any of the managers we have had ...... Stubbs was a quiet thoughtful manager, but I defy anybody to say they've seen a Hibs team with a better team spirit than his had or that they were a soft touch.

Having said that, there does seem to be something about this club which guarantees that 9 times out of 10 we will implode when it matters the most, no matter how good or tough a team we have. Our losing record ratio in cup finals has to be approaching some sort of world record and there are few clubs who could lose a second leg play off match at home with a 2 - 0 first leg win in its pocket, not even picking up a single yellow card in the process.

The thing that has always made a difference at Hibs has been the owner / chairman. Harry Swan, Tom Hart and to a lesser extent Tom Farmer. For a club like us a visionary owner is as important, perhaps more important, than who the manager is or what players we have. Its been a long long time since Hibs have had that type of owner .... Farmer was one in off field matters, but a 'haul' of two trophies in a 25 year tenure is not the stuff of legends .... or perhaps it is, which is a damning indictment of the historic on field efforts of the club.

If I do have a concern about Ron Gordon its that so far he hasn't given me the impression that he will be the dynamic go getting person this club needs to achieve what its capable of ... his approach seems to be very understated and concentrated just as much on Hibs as social asset for the community as Hibs successful club on the park ... I want a trophy room stuffed with awards from the SFA / SPFL ... and in my dreams UEFA .... not the Scottish government and ECC for our good works ... I have a season ticket for Easter Road and not Social Bite for a reason.

There are three areas the Ron Gordon era Hibernian football club has to concentrate on if we are to progress and I'll list them in what I think are the order of importance.

1) The income of this club has to be raised to a level where the average first team players basic salary is a minimum of £3,000 per week ... IMO that is the level where we will be able to attract players above the standard we have just now provided we back it up with a generous bonus scheme .. I know that will involve a basic outlay of around £3,500,000 a year for a 22 man first team squad, but it has to be an ambition.

2) Since the HTC was opened 12 years ago I am seriously struggling to think of one regular first team player it has produced with the exception of Ryan Porteous ... yes there have been a few who have made the first team and hung about the fringes like Fraser Murray and Oli Shaw, but nobody apart from Porteous has looked like becoming a regular starter. Any club looking for a regular conveyor belt of talent from its youth program will always be disappointed ... even Man Utd and Dundee Utd will attest to that ... but one player in 12 years is nothing short of abject failure and there has to be questions asked as to why that is.

3) And this is probably the most contentious one ... We must continue to improve the stadium, the ambition for this club must be to eventually have a fully enclosed ground with one way or another the corners filled in and a roof that's joined up all the way round the stadium. I know its down the list compared to the team on the park, but it all goes towards an ambition to make this club everything it can and should be and it shouldn't be neglected or ignored.

At the very least I want Ron Gordon when he stands up at the AGM in the new year to express an ambition that this is what he wants for the club. I have a horrible feeling I'm going to be disappointed.

Thats a cracking post fella but personally I'd substitute number three for "match day experience" of which stadium improvements would be part of.

[Dashing Bob S]

We've underachieved. We should never be out the top five and always be battling for third. And if the huns or Celtic have a crisis session ready to pounce. I would say the same for Hearts and Aberdeen.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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We've underachieved. We should never be out the top five and always be battling for third. And if the huns or Celtic have a crisis session ready to pounce. I would say the same for Hearts and Aberdeen.

So by that logic, the top five in the league should never, ever change from Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen?

Even though this hasn't happened since the 2004/05 season.