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  1. #151
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    Is that the French police too, or are you just going to kid on your last link was nonsense?
    In the photographs you clearly see an officer with a fistful of the guys hair, holding him over the central road barrier.

    In the second photograph you see the guy making his way towards the wheelchair on his hands and knees. But according to the post you deleted there is no evidence of a beating.
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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Actually the French police . In general election on Sunday independence parties got 43% of the votes in Catalonia . Complicated situation which doesn`t have any obvious easy solution.
    For completeness - "Unionist" parties got 39%. The bulk of the non-aligned vote went to the Catalan branch of Podemos (En Comu Podem) which supports a referendum and doesn't back one side or the other.

  4. #153
    Testimonial Due Cataplana's Avatar
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    I am sure there will be complaints against the Gendarmes, and if they are found to have acted illegally the French authorities will take action.

    Interesting to note when you watch the BBC clip, that Albert Cassals (a remarkable man) was actually removed from the roadway, and was being returned to his wheelchair.

    The protestors had been there for 24 hours before the police moved in. I don't think i'd be happy about British police acting in such a way; neither would I be happy with British protestors acting in the way they did.

  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    For completeness - "Unionist" parties got 39%. The bulk of the non-aligned vote went to the Catalan branch of Podemos (En Comu Podem) which supports a referendum and doesn't back one side or the other.
    Do you think the actions of Tsunami Democracy are helping the situation, harming it, or are largely irrelevant? I don't think such actions would garner much support if they were to do it in Scotland.

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    In the photographs you clearly see an officer with a fistful of the guys hair, holding him over the central road barrier.

    In the second photograph you see the guy making his way towards the wheelchair on his hands and knees. But according to the post you deleted there is no evidence of a beating.
    I said nothing of the sort. I asked for more information.

    I deleted the questions as I felt it was for me to investigate further. After all, you haven't proved the most reliable source of information, you don't even know the difference between France and Spain.

    So, twist what I decided not to write all you want. The fact that I deleted it, is my way of showing I changed my mind.

  7. #156
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    I said nothing of the sort. I asked for more information.

    I deleted the questions as I felt it was for me to investigate further. After all, you haven't proved the most reliable source of information, you don't even know the difference between France and Spain.

    So, twist what I decided not to write all you want. The fact that I deleted it, is my way of showing I changed my mind.
    Ignore all the links I posted as well?
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

  8. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    Do you think the actions of Tsunami Democracy are helping the situation, harming it, or are largely irrelevant? I don't think such actions would garner much support if they were to do it in Scotland.
    That's a very good question. I think it's very like the Extinction Rebellion stuff. I appreciate their point and broadly agree but I think it ultimately might be counter productive.

  9. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    In the photographs you clearly see an officer with a fistful of the guys hair, holding him over the central road barrier.

    In the second photograph you see the guy making his way towards the wheelchair on his hands and knees. But according to the post you deleted there is no evidence of a beating.
    The BBC had video on their website.

    I think he had left his wheelchair of his own volition to join a sit down protest along with a crowd of others blocking the main motorway crossing between France and Catalonia (or Catalonia Nord and Sud :-) ). They were forcibly dragged off the road by the French Gendarmes and he made his own way back to his wheelchair.

  10. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The BBC had video on their website.

    I think he had left his wheelchair of his own volition to join a sit down protest along with a crowd of others blocking the main motorway crossing between France and Catalonia (or Catalonia Nord and Sud :-) ). They were forcibly dragged off the road by the French Gendarmes and he made his own way back to his wheelchair.
    He should be viewed exactly the same way as any other protestor. From what I've read he is fiercely independent and would not expect anything else.

  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    That's a very good question. I think it's very like the Extinction Rebellion stuff. I appreciate their point and broadly agree but I think it ultimately might be counter productive.
    Pretty much where I stand, I think the danger of these "hairy" protests is that the bulk of the electorate don't identify with the protestors, this results in them missing the message they are trying to carry. Even worse it can turn them off to the extent that they support the other side.

    It's a fact of life that a lot of people are sold on the package rather than the product.

  12. #161
    Results of survey organised by Catalan Generalitat on independence for Catalonia published today . Support for independence just below 41% , 7 % below support for Catalonia continuing as part of Spain . Independence choice down on previous survey ( summer 2017 before illegal referendum ) but important to note that this year`s survey was based on answers asked before the sentences for accused of sedition etc were announced . Sentences might have boosted pro independence vote but subsequent violence and protests might have reduced it further ( specualtion on my part ) . Also means about 10% were undecided . Haven`t seen full details but think there were other questions with more options such as federal system like Germany`s - suspect this would have been a good solution 5 to 10 years ago when Catalanist ( working for interests of Catalonia but not necessarily pushing for 100% independence ) politicians had a lot of influence but looked at wider picture too but rivalries between pro independence / Catalanist parties and concerns of anti independence parties probably make this difficult now . Whatever happens in Catalonia in the next few years I can`t see an easy solution to political and social differences which is a pity as stronger government ( in Madrid and Barcelona ) could have avoided current problems .

  13. #162
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Results of survey organised by Catalan Generalitat on independence for Catalonia published today . Support for independence just below 41% , 7 % below support for Catalonia continuing as part of Spain . Independence choice down on previous survey ( summer 2017 before illegal referendum ) but important to note that this year`s survey was based on answers asked before the sentences for accused of sedition etc were announced . Sentences might have boosted pro independence vote but subsequent violence and protests might have reduced it further ( specualtion on my part ) . Also means about 10% were undecided . Haven`t seen full details but think there were other questions with more options such as federal system like Germany`s - suspect this would have been a good solution 5 to 10 years ago when Catalanist ( working for interests of Catalonia but not necessarily pushing for 100% independence ) politicians had a lot of influence but looked at wider picture too but rivalries between pro independence / Catalanist parties and concerns of anti independence parties probably make this difficult now . Whatever happens in Catalonia in the next few years I can`t see an easy solution to political and social differences which is a pity as stronger government ( in Madrid and Barcelona ) could have avoided current problems .
    Can I just say that Iíve been unfairly hard and critical of you on this thread and for that I apologise wholeheartedly. I have a very strong view on this subject that and I will always believe that the people in Catalonia should have the right to choose their own future. I know that this isnít allowed under the Spanish constitution, but that in my opinion is the problem. Almost everyone on here supported the Arab Spring, but opinion is divided on Catalonia because we donít see the Spanish government as being an oppressive regime. Obviously the Spanish government canít be compared to the dictatorship regimes in North Africa, but the principle of self determination is just the same.

    United we stand here....

  14. #163
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    I just saw a fact that 10 of the last 12 leaders of Catalonia have either been killed, jailed, exiled or removed from office. I suppose thatís fine though as the constitution has to be upheld.

    United we stand here....

  15. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I just saw a fact that 10 of the last 12 leaders of Catalonia have either been killed, jailed, exiled or removed from office. I suppose thatís fine though as the constitution has to be upheld.
    Interesting . Where did you read this ? Am not doubting it at all especially as you seem to know a lot about Catalan history . Am just curious and surprised Catalonia ( what is known as Catalonia now anyway ) has even had 12 leaders . Wonder what the figures wuld be for leaders of other regions of Spain .

  16. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Can I just say that Iíve been unfairly hard and critical of you on this thread and for that I apologise wholeheartedly. I have a very strong view on this subject that and I will always believe that the people in Catalonia should have the right to choose their own future. I know that this isnít allowed under the Spanish constitution, but that in my opinion is the problem. Almost everyone on here supported the Arab Spring, but opinion is divided on Catalonia because we donít see the Spanish government as being an oppressive regime. Obviously the Spanish government canít be compared to the dictatorship regimes in North Africa, but the principle of self determination is just the same.
    No need to apologise at all . I`ve lived in Spain for many years but always in the south so admit that my opinions on Catalonia are partly influenced by what I hear and read in Andalusia and general opinions expressed in the national Spanish press . I understand the demands for the right for Catalans to decide if they want to continue as part of Spain ( and for Basques , Galicians , Murcianos , Andalusians etc - developments of last few years could well lead to changing opinions all over Spain from Canaries to the north of the peninsula - I already note more pro Andalusia opinions here and worth remembering that less than 10 years ago vote for pro independence parties in Catalonia was below 10% ) and I`m sure you know far more about how Catalans feel than me . My main argument in Catalonia independence debates is when foreign journalists or authors desperate to sell books start mentioning Franco and suggesting Spain is still like it was 50 or 60 years ago . Issue of constitution ( that I think will change soon ) is the same as in Germany ( where independence parties have less leeway than in Spain ) , France or Italy for example .
    Out of curiosity , you mention you have a strong opinion on rights of Catalans who want to vote for independence . Do you have similar feelings about Corsicans , Basques , Bretons , Bavarians ? Anyway , main thing is that fellow Hibernians can express our views in a civilised way . I certainly appreciate reading varied opinions on issues which affect all of Spain and Europe .

  17. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Interesting . Where did you read this ? Am not doubting it at all especially as you seem to know a lot about Catalan history . Am just curious and surprised Catalonia ( what is known as Catalonia now anyway ) has even had 12 leaders . Wonder what the figures wuld be for leaders of other regions of Spain .
    There was a historical Generalitat going back a couple of centuries I think?

    Anyway the 12 referenced is probably going back to the pre-Franco and pre-civil war 2nd republic. That version of the Generalitat continued in exile during the Franco dictatorship and its leader, Josep Tarradellas, was invited back to lead the first post-Franco Catalan government.

  18. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    No need to apologise at all . I`ve lived in Spain for many years but always in the south so admit that my opinions on Catalonia are partly influenced by what I hear and read in Andalusia and general opinions expressed in the national Spanish press . I understand the demands for the right for Catalans to decide if they want to continue as part of Spain ( and for Basques , Galicians , Murcianos , Andalusians etc - developments of last few years could well lead to changing opinions all over Spain from Canaries to the north of the peninsula - I already note more pro Andalusia opinions here and worth remembering that less than 10 years ago vote for pro independence parties in Catalonia was below 10% ) and I`m sure you know far more about how Catalans feel than me . My main argument in Catalonia independence debates is when foreign journalists or authors desperate to sell books start mentioning Franco and suggesting Spain is still like it was 50 or 60 years ago . Issue of constitution ( that I think will change soon ) is the same as in Germany ( where independence parties have less leeway than in Spain ) , France or Italy for example .
    Out of curiosity , you mention you have a strong opinion on rights of Catalans who want to vote for independence . Do you have similar feelings about Corsicans , Basques , Bretons , Bavarians ? Anyway , main thing is that fellow Hibernians can express our views in a civilised way . I certainly appreciate reading varied opinions on issues which affect all of Spain and Europe .
    I hope you keep posting. I like to get your perspective.

  19. #168
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    No need to apologise at all . I`ve lived in Spain for many years but always in the south so admit that my opinions on Catalonia are partly influenced by what I hear and read in Andalusia and general opinions expressed in the national Spanish press . I understand the demands for the right for Catalans to decide if they want to continue as part of Spain ( and for Basques , Galicians , Murcianos , Andalusians etc - developments of last few years could well lead to changing opinions all over Spain from Canaries to the north of the peninsula - I already note more pro Andalusia opinions here and worth remembering that less than 10 years ago vote for pro independence parties in Catalonia was below 10% ) and I`m sure you know far more about how Catalans feel than me . My main argument in Catalonia independence debates is when foreign journalists or authors desperate to sell books start mentioning Franco and suggesting Spain is still like it was 50 or 60 years ago . Issue of constitution ( that I think will change soon ) is the same as in Germany ( where independence parties have less leeway than in Spain ) , France or Italy for example .
    Out of curiosity , you mention you have a strong opinion on rights of Catalans who want to vote for independence . Do you have similar feelings about Corsicans , Basques , Bretons , Bavarians ? Anyway , main thing is that fellow Hibernians can express our views in a civilised way . I certainly appreciate reading varied opinions on issues which affect all of Spain and Europe .
    Thanks for your reply. I have strong feelings on the right to self determination for anyone who seeks it. I understand there has to be a demand for it amongst the population. When you have a region electing pro independence governments it should then be put to the people. As a Scottish nationalist it would be hypocritical of me not to support others in the same or similar position. The people I speak to in Catalonia are obviously pro independence and biased, but they have a strong case for at least having a referendum imo.

    United we stand here....

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