Steve Clarke ....... bad decision?

[BoomtownHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Here are the players we currently have who are capable of competing with other national teams and reaching a major tournament. Brackets for the ones who are potentially capable, if given time to develop/prove themselves more.

(Marshall)

N/A (McKenna) N/A Robertson/Tierney

McGinn McTominay (Christie)

Fraser N/A N/A

Basically, we have four definites, three maybes and the rest don't exist. Depressing.

You do realise that Marshall is 34 aye?

[HoboHarry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You do realise that Marshall is 34 aye?

Not sure that is a bad thing for a goalkeeper honestly.

[BoomtownHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Not sure that is a bad thing for a goalkeeper honestly.

No but the post I quoted was stating that he was a player with potential to develop/prove himself further. I can’t see that with a 34 year old, goalkeeper or not

[HoboHarry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No but the post I quoted was stating that he was a player with potential to develop/prove himself further. I can’t see that with a 34 year old, goalkeeper or not

It was being reported that Scotland had approached Angus Gunn but he took aim at us and fired off that he wasn't interested.......

[Hibernia&Alba]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No but the post I quoted was stating that he was a player with potential to develop/prove himself further. I can’t see that with a 34 year old, goalkeeper or not

Where is he playing now? He seemed to just disappear.

[BoomtownHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Where is he playing now? He seemed to just disappear.

Wigan

I’m no saying he’s a bad goalie, prob the best we have just now. Just longing out he’s not going to improve/develop any further at this stage of his career

[BoomtownHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It was being reported that Scotland had approached Angus Gunn but he took aim at us and fired off that he wasn't interested.......

No surprise

[easty]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It was being reported that Scotland had approached Angus Gunn but he took aim at us and fired off that he wasn't interested.......

Good. I wish more footballers would reject call ups to a country that they in no way claim to be from. A bit of patriotism.

[Hi Heid Yin]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It all boils down to both money and a series of plans and proposals that have failed.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the World Cup in the USA. It was an embarrassment for them and with a home WC on the horizon they conducted a thorough investigation into what went wrong, the outcomes of said investigation and the plan put in place has been well documented elsewhere. They reached the semi finals of Euro 96, won the 1998 World Cup, won Euro 2000, reached the final of the 2006 World Cup, reached the final of Euro 2016 and won the 2018 World Cup. Of course there were a few lean years in among that. However in 12 major tournaments since 1994 France have appeared in 5 finals and won 3 of them. I don't think anyone in Scotland really believes we should be emulating that, reaching a major tournament is our aim. Since 1998 we have had 8 permanent managers, the McLeish report, Project Brave and 2 overhauls of youth development leagues and have one solitary play off appearance to show for it in which we were beaten 6-1 on aggregate. Whatever we have done and continue to do has not and does not work.

I said in my opening line it boils down to money and I think that covers a few areas. Firstly our top league is small and cut throat. There is close to a 17% chance of ending up in either a relegation or play off position, the economic impact of relegation is such that managers can't risk throwing untried youngsters into a team if there is any chance of getting dragged into that fight. Of course restructuring the league is far from simple and again comes down to money. Every club budgets on the OF bringing big crowds, our TV deal relies on their being 4 OF games a season and the various alternative suggestions for how to set up the league all have their problems. Secondly our next door neighbour is a financial behemoth and can lure our young talent away at a young age then discard them a few years later with no financial consequence. That creates a situation in which clubs become terrified of missing out on their next big asset so we take increasing numbers of young players out of youth football at an increasingly young age with an emphasis as much on quantity as quality. You can end up in a situation in which a late developer is out the game as a 'failed footballer' by 14 or 15 years old. Our facilities are expensive, our coaching courses at the entry levels are 'turn up and you pass' and I think our entire football culture has become less about enjoying and learning the game. I don't buy into the whole 'Playstations are to blame' nonsense. They have Playstations in Croatia, Wales, Iceland and Slovenia and they have all made it to major finals in recent years and often surpassed expectations.

Pointing out the problems is in many ways the easy part, finding the solutions is trickier. We seem determined to keep trying various incarnations of the same things that have failed before though and we keep navel gazing when they don't work. I think it requires and outside body with no vested interests in the status quo to come in and evaluate the whole game from top to bottom; it will never happen though as too many people have too much to lose.

[weecounty hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Aye, but the Russians don't play rugby; football has always been huge over there, and they have had several very good sides.

Rugby is a minority sport in both countries though. Football is Scotland's national sport. By a very large distance there are far more football players than rugby players in Scotland. There are more registered rugby players in Yorkshire than in Scotland but we seem to be able to at least challenge at rugby. In football we are marginally better than San Marino and Gibraltar. The rugby players also don't call off at the drop of a hat for minor injuries. They look like they want to be here, play with passion and commitment as well. Playing for Scotland at football has long since stopped being the pinnacle for these guys. Is anyone surprised that McBurnie called off from a trip to Russia? I'm not after his comments about Scotland. Get him to **** and get in players who actually want to play for the national side.
There are so many things wrong in Scottish football right now and it will take years to sort. Pretty Boy had a very good post above about France but France don't have the millstone of the OF to contend with. SPFL/SFA are more interested in keeping them happy than having a successful national team

[G B Young]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Should Clarke have stayed with Killie where he was enjoying a successful run?

He must now be thinking he was nuts to leave Killie for the Scotland job. He could have had his pick of some decent jobs down south if he'd waited a bit longer. Instead he's now seen his stock plummet and questions beginning to be asked about whether he's actually all that great a manager after all.

[One Day Soon]

It's unfixable. Literally cannot be turned around.

[JimBHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's unfixable. Literally cannot be turned around.

Dont think it is. Strachan should have been kept on unless oneill was definitely coming. He was making progress and was a stupid pass and half decent keeper from beating England. Clarke is a decent club manager. He was good at killie because he had the players every day. Even when his team were doing well they were functional and pretty dull to watch. Now he gets players for 2 or 3 days.

[Sir David Gray]

I've said before that I seriously think that Scotland should withdraw from all competitive tournaments for the foreseeable future. We should focus on getting the correct structures in place that will give us the best possible chance of succeeding.

Until we do that we're just wasting our time entering tournaments.

Does anyone seriously think we'll qualify for Euro 2020 through the play offs next year?

Not a chance in my opinion.

[Vault Boy]

Thought Clarke would bring a new approach and invoke some creativity into squad selections, but I've been really disappointed. Whilst the squad looks different, his starting 11 choices have baffled me, and the choice of defenders in particular has been dreadful.

We clearly don't have the most talented group right now, but there's definitely better choices to be made.

I really want to see players like Liam Lindsay, Porteous, Turnbull (when fit), Campbell, Bates, Sir Hendo, Billy Gilmour, Mikey Johnston, Aaron Hickey etc given a chance in the first team squad. It's time to look forward, not backwards at players like Mulgrew and Snoddy IMO.

Still can't believe we went with Mulgrew and Devlin, the mind boggles.

[pacorosssco]

Micheal O'Neill had awful first 2-3 years in job. We need to give him time. SFA are at fault state of team. No vision .

[Vault Boy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Micheal O'Neill had awful first 2-3 years in job. We need to give him time. SFA are at fault state of team. No vision .

This is a completely fair point, not that I think he's blameless in the results. Things tend to take longer with international management.

[B.H.F.C]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is a completely fair point, not that I think he's blameless in the results. Things tend to take longer with international management.

Thought Clarke was getting his excuses in before a ball was kicked in Russia. Talking about how he’s only really done 20 minutes of proper coaching on Monday. And then we had a flight and all that. That’s international football!

Agree on the O’Neill point though. He was given a bit time and managed to get a lesser group of players than we have to a tournament. And, although, they’re unlikely to qualify for this one he at least has them punching their weight in the group.

[One Day Soon]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Dont think it is. Strachan should have been kept on unless oneill was definitely coming. He was making progress and was a stupid pass and half decent keeper from beating England. Clarke is a decent club manager. He was good at killie because he had the players every day. Even when his team were doing well they were functional and pretty dull to watch. Now he gets players for 2 or 3 days.

We've been 5hit for pretty much 20 years, arguably longer. There's no sign of improvement or the hope of improvement. Our game is broken because its structure, management and purpose is focussed primarily on the interests of two teams, secondarily on the interests of the larger minnows around those teams - and in any event it can't even properly shape its top league in the best interests of the wider game.

The two top teams - top because they are bloated and dominant due to their sectarian history and its contemporary pan-Scottish catchment area which no other teams have - can't improve themselves or their players past a glass ceiling imposed by the lack of serious competition in our premier league. The two top teams also won't share resources on a fairer basis in order to allow those other teams to provide more meaningful competion. Catch 22. This gives us a game which TV deals will only fund to a relatively minor level because the only games they really want to cover involve the two top teams - because other teams are not seen as serious challengers so the tv advertising audience is largely followers of the Ugly Sisters,. Neutrals don't watch in large enough numbers to fuel the advertising revenues and never will because, again, the league is rightly seen as a two-horse race plus also-rans.

There's a cancer at the heart of our game. It doesn't care about Scottish football, it just cares about dominance within Glasgow, nurturing its own monopolistic tribal rivalry, the mind numbing meaninglessness of getting to or stopping 10 in a row and sustaining its position as two bigger fish in a tiny pond. All the action plans, all the grand ambitions, all the supposed innovation, all the demand for change will always, always, always break on the rocks of pleasing these two teams and the governing body that protects them. The need to serve their interests will inevitably mean compromising, undermining,diverting or delaying any substantive change that threatens their vested interests directly or indirectly.

It is unfixable and it literally cannot be turned around.

Steve Clarke isn't to blame, he's just the latest fall guy.

[Carheenlea]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I've said before that I seriously think that Scotland should withdraw from all competitive tournaments for the foreseeable future. We should focus on getting the correct structures in place that will give us the best possible chance of succeeding.

Until we do that we're just wasting our time entering tournaments.

Does anyone seriously think we'll qualify for Euro 2020 through the play offs next year?

Not a chance in my opinion.

I don’t think we will, but we have a better chance of qualifying through the play offs than if we just quit international football. By that logic, should the 158 countries below us in the rankings withdraw as well? A lot of people would be happy with that mind you - get rid of the dross and keep the sport at international level for elite nations only.

[JimBHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

We've been 5hit for pretty much 20 years, arguably longer. There's no sign of improvement or the hope of improvement. Our game is broken because its structure, management and purpose is focussed primarily on the interests of two teams, secondarily on the interests of the larger minnows around those teams - and in any event it can't even properly shape its top league in the best interests of the wider game.

The two top teams - top because they are bloated and dominant due to their sectarian history and its contemporary pan-Scottish catchment area which no other teams have - can't improve themselves or their players past a glass ceiling imposed by the lack of serious competition in our premier league. The two top teams also won't share resources on a fairer basis in order to allow those other teams to provide more meaningful competion. Catch 22. This gives us a game which TV deals will only fund to a relatively minor level because the only games they really want to cover involve the two top teams - because other teams are not seen as serious challengers so the tv advertising audience is largely followers of the Ugly Sisters,. Neutrals don't watch in large enough numbers to fuel the advertising revenues and never will because, again, the league is rightly seen as a two-horse race plus also-rans.

There's a cancer at the heart of our game. It doesn't care about Scottish football, it just cares about dominance within Glasgow, nurturing its own monopolistic tribal rivalry, the mind numbing meaninglessness of getting to or stopping 10 in a row and sustaining its position as two bigger fish in a tiny pond. All the action plans, all the grand ambitions, all the supposed innovation, all the demand for change will always, always, always break on the rocks of pleasing these two teams and the governing body that protects them. The need to serve their interests will inevitably mean compromising, undermining,diverting or delaying any substantive change that threatens their vested interests directly or indirectly.

It is unfixable and it literally cannot be turned around.

Steve Clarke isn't to blame, he's just the latest fall guy.

Fantastic summation of the corrupt game here however Clarke should be getting much more out the players than currently is and emphasises even more the nonsensical decision of getting rid of him and ending up with Mcleish.

[Sir David Gray]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don’t think we will, but we have a better chance of qualifying through the play offs than if we just quit international football. By that logic, should the 158 countries below us in the rankings withdraw as well? A lot of people would be happy with that mind you - get rid of the dross and keep the sport at international level for elite nations only.

How many of the 158 nations currently below us in the rankings can say that they are underperforming in the way that Scotland has been for the last 21 years?

Many of those 158 nations have found their level and are quite happy just competing at that level and have very little chance of progressing any further either due to the size of the country i.e. San Marino and Gibraltar or due to the fact that football just doesn't rank very highly in that country's list of priorities in comparison with other sports i.e. India and Canada.

Football is by far the number one sport in Scotland and whilst we maybe don't have the population to rival the likes of Brazil, Germany, France or England which is likely to limit how far we are actually able to progress, we are massively underperforming for a country of 5 million people, many of whom consider football to be their main sport.

Just last year there was a report out stating that Scottish football was the best supported in Europe per head of population. Obviously a lot of that is down to Celtic and Rangers but we are punching massively below our weight right now and something radical has to be done to change that.

[Yorkshire HFC]

[QUOTE=Sir David Gray;5954575]How many of the 158 nations currently below us in the rankings can say that they are underperforming in the way that Scotland has been for the last 21 years?

I'd like to see all SPL clubs play only Scottish players as a start.

Why do Hibs (and Hearts, Livingston, Partick etc.) have payers from Ecuador, Trinidad etc. playing for them?

We should stop signing second rate foreign players and play Scottish players.

But the fans demand "exciting" signings, so this is unlikely to happen.

[B.H.F.C]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Fantastic summation of the corrupt game here however Clarke should be getting much more out the players than currently is and emphasises even more the nonsensical decision of getting rid of him and ending up with Mcleish.

I agree. Scottish football isn’t without its problems but I still think the national team should be capable of better than what we’re seeing.

There is loads of examples of countries who manage to be much more competitive than us whilst having poor domestic leagues and only one or two players playing at the real top level, if that.

Republic of Ireland are a good example. Full of players from the English Championship but managed to get to the last two Euros and top of their current group. For whatever reason, they manage to get a good spirit and punch their weight. We’ve got more players playing at a good level than them. Northern Ireland are the other example, are their players better than ours as individuals? Iceland had Victor Palsson and Kari Arnasan in their back four against France last night but managed to give them a game. It would have been a training session if we’d played them.

We should at least be managing to be competitive in games and groups.

[JimBHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I agree. Scottish football isn’t without its problems but I still think the national team should be capable of better than what we’re seeing.

There is loads of examples of countries who manage to be much more competitive than us whilst having poor domestic leagues and only one or two players playing at the real top level, if that.

Republic of Ireland are a good example. Full of players from the English Championship but managed to get to the last two Euros and top of their current group. For whatever reason, they manage to get a good spirit and punch their weight. We’ve got more players playing at a good level than them. Northern Ireland are the other example, are their players better than ours as individuals? Iceland had Victor Palsson and Kari Arnasan in their back four against France last night but managed to give them a game. It would have been a training session if we’d played them.

We should at least be managing to be competitive in games and groups.

Agree Northern Ireland are the perfect example a mix of players playing at decent levels and others less so. They have a much better spirit and are competitive with better nations. They were unlucky against Germany at home and were a few minutes from beating holland away until the wheels fell off. In their home games they play in a full smaller stadium with a great atmosphere which is in total contrast from the not fit for purpose empty stadium we play our games in. We should be doing better and should also move some of the games to stadiums like ours.

[G B Young]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I've said before that I seriously think that Scotland should withdraw from all competitive tournaments for the foreseeable future. We should focus on getting the correct structures in place that will give us the best possible chance of succeeding.

Until we do that we're just wasting our time entering tournaments.

Does anyone seriously think we'll qualify for Euro 2020 through the play offs next year?

Not a chance in my opinion.

And even if we did, what really, would be the point? What's the thinking behind these back door play-offs? Do Uefa feel that rather than ensure the showpiece tournament contain only the best-performing teams they should try to add a few crappy cannon fodder teams like Scotland into the mix? Seems utterly pointless.

Instead of withdrawing form all competitive tournaments how about a 'B' tournament where teams like Scotland compete only with the other also-rans? Potentially winning a few games would feel better than endless humiliations at the hands of the top teams and if in event we ever looked able to hold our own in the 'A' tournaments there could be a promotion and relegation system introduced for qualifying.

[Carheenlea]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

And even if we did, what really, would be the point? What's the thinking behind these back door play-offs? Do Uefa feel that rather than ensure the showpiece tournament contain only the best-performing teams they should try to add a few crappy cannon fodder teams like Scotland into the mix? Seems utterly pointless.

Instead of withdrawing form all competitive tournaments how about a 'B' tournament where teams like Scotland compete only with the other also-rans? Potentially winning a few games would feel better than endless humiliations at the hands of the top teams and if in event we ever looked able to hold our own in the 'A' tournaments there could be a promotion and relegation system introduced for qualifying.

A two or three tiered international format with promotion and demotion is not a bad shout at first thoughts.

[Jim44]

I would say that, considering our history, experience and standing in International football ( never great but generally ok ) and despite the number of players, playing at a decent club level ( some at a high level) and despite the fervour ( declining ) of our fans, we are possibly one of the worst, certainly the most underperforming, National teams in the world. I think SC has made a huge career error in taking on the job.

[Sir David Gray]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

And even if we did, what really, would be the point? What's the thinking behind these back door play-offs? Do Uefa feel that rather than ensure the showpiece tournament contain only the best-performing teams they should try to add a few crappy cannon fodder teams like Scotland into the mix? Seems utterly pointless.

Instead of withdrawing form all competitive tournaments how about a 'B' tournament where teams like Scotland compete only with the other also-rans? Potentially winning a few games would feel better than endless humiliations at the hands of the top teams and if in event we ever looked able to hold our own in the 'A' tournaments there could be a promotion and relegation system introduced for qualifying.

It's not just endless humiliation at the hands of the top teams though. In the last three qualification groups we have lost to Kazakhstan, Slovakia and Georgia.

Scotland are in danger of losing touch with second and third rate teams if things keep going the way they are.

[ancient hibee]

Andorra has won a game.Nothing is impossible.