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  1. #31
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    I see incidents of tourists driving on the wrong side of the road 3 or 4 times a year. Living in perthshire it is a frequent occurrence as tourists leave their hotel, visitor attractions and car parks they automatically turn the way they would at home. It happened this morning in Pitlochry. All hire cars should have prominent signs on the dashboard in main languages.
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.


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  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    I see incidents of tourists driving on the wrong side of the road 3 or 4 times a year. Living in perthshire it is a frequent occurrence as tourists leave their hotel, visitor attractions and car parks they automatically turn the way they would at home. It happened this morning in Pitlochry. All hire cars should have prominent signs on the dashboard in main languages.
    I'd been living (and driving) in France for a month before my elder daughter was born. After the birth (and a long labour) I left the hospital at just before 6.00am - there wasn't another car on the road and I automatically headed off driving on the left instead of the right. It was only when I got to a roundabout 4-500yds up the road that I realised my mistake. When there are other cars about it's easy to go with the flow, it's when the roads are empty that you have to think twice.

    in saying that, I opened the passenger door for myself nearly every morning during my first couple of years here, only to see that the steering whell was at the other side.

    I also almost had a head on collision with a guy a couple of weeks ago. There are loads of roadworks in the town where I work and I was driving along a long one way street which, for the duration of the work, has had it's sense of direction changed. The guy I nearly hit lives on the street and, coming out his drive, set off as he's been doing for the past 15 years that he's lived there. It's easily done.

    I

  4. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Yep, pretty sure that any UK->US requests around this case will be on a "nod and a wink" basis.

    Anyway, mostly in these situations the "justice" the family want is the driver banged up as if they were a murderer. It must be awful losing your child in these circumstances but even if the woman went on trial it would most likely be a "death by careless driving" and possibly even a non-custodial sentence. Nobody would really get any satisfaction from it. It's a tragic accident caused by a moment of carelessness with terrible consequences.

    I've done a lot of driving on the "other" side of the road and made mistakes a couple of times. Thankfully none as bad as this or that impacted on anyone else, but it's easily done. Accounts seem to suggest this woman co-operated with the police but has subsequently been advised (most likely more or less ordered) to get back to the US pronto.
    It'll 100% be death by careless.

    RTA 1988. S2.B

    Carries 6 months and or level 5 fine when tried summarily. If it's tried on indictment max is 5 years.

    Points to prove is only driving fell below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver.

    Even if she comes back, and she should, she won't get anywhere near the max.

    I work with it every day and very often our justice system just flat out sucks. I feel for the family.

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  5. #34
    Whilst my first sympathies are obviously with the family of the deceased, and Mrs Sarcoolis should definitely be extradited if possible, at the same time it wasn't as if she buggered off to the US right after it happened, it was fully 2 weeks after. Are the police so incompetent that they didn't charge/arrest her within that 2 weeks? Somebody else can maybe enlighten me. If somebody is a foreign national and commits a crime in this country such as manslaughter I would of thought they would do a whole lot more than 'ask her not to leave the country.' Just my opinion, I have no idea regarding the legality of the situation.
    Last edited by ekhibee; 09-10-2019 at 12:54 PM.

  6. #35
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ekhibee View Post
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    Whilst my first sympathies are obviously with the family of the deceased, and Mrs Sarcoolis should definitely be extradited if possible, at the same time it wasn't as if she buggered off to the US right after it happened, it was fully 2 weeks after. Are the police so incompetent that they didn't charge/arrest her within that 2 weeks? Somebody else can maybe enlighten me. If somebody is a foreign national and commits a crime in this country such as manslaughter I would of thought they would do a whole lot more than 'ask her not to leave the country.' Just my opinion, I have no idea regarding the legality of the situation.
    I think the "leaving the country" aspect is a bit of a red herring; if she has diplomatic immunity, it's almost irrelevant where she is located with regard to being able to prosecute her (although the police would potentially have been able to question her further). The decision to remove her from the country would be more for her husband's benefit than hers.

    From the police perspective, there are certain protocols which must be followed when seeking to charge someone who has diplomatic immunity, which is likely why she was not charged sooner.

  7. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ekhibee View Post
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    Whilst my first sympathies are obviously with the family of the deceased, and Mrs Sarcoolis should definitely be extradited if possible, at the same time it wasn't as if she buggered off to the US right after it happened, it was fully 2 weeks after. Are the police so incompetent that they didn't charge/arrest her within that 2 weeks? Somebody else can maybe enlighten me. If somebody is a foreign national and commits a crime in this country such as manslaughter I would of thought they would do a whole lot more than 'ask her not to leave the country.' Just my opinion, I have no idea regarding the legality of the situation.
    It's a driving offence. Not manslaughter.

    The police don't charge for Death by Careless driving. It's a CPS charge and there's no way the CPS would charge if she has diplomatic immunity.

    Even if she had been arrested her detention would have been refused as she'd have shown up as Diplomatic immunity. Regardless as soon as they had run her details at the road side it would have come back.

    This isn't a police issue. It's a political issue.

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  8. #37
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Jimmy View Post
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    It'll 100% be death by careless.

    RTA 1988. S2.B

    Carries 6 months and or level 5 fine when tried summarily. If it's tried on indictment max is 5 years.

    Points to prove is only driving fell below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver.

    Even if she comes back, and she should, she won't get anywhere near the max.

    I work with it every day and very often our justice system just flat out sucks. I feel for the family.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
    Would it not be death by dangerous driving? Can't think of much more dangerous than driving down the wrong side of the road. Johnson will prove himself he is made of stern stuff by telling Trump he will be in trouble if this ever happens again.

  9. #38
    Testimonial Due Since90+2's Avatar
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    Out of interest does diplomatic immunity cover all crimes? For instance could a diplomat shoot someone dead in the middle of a busy street and just be allowed to leave the country in full view of authorities?

  10. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    Would it not be death by dangerous driving? Can't think of much more dangerous than driving down the wrong side of the road. Johnson will prove himself he is made of stern stuff by telling Trump he will be in trouble if this ever happens again.
    For D by Dangerous you have to prove standard falls WAY below. It's harder to prove and the wrong side of the road could be argued at court that it was a lapse in consentration as she's used to driving in the USA and caused due to a mitigating factor such as tiredness or stress.

    I would imagine CPS would charge D by Dangerous and hope for a guilty plea to D by careless which would guarantee a convinction. That's how they work.

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  11. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    Would it not be death by dangerous driving? Can't think of much more dangerous than driving down the wrong side of the road. Johnson will prove himself he is made of stern stuff by telling Trump he will be in trouble if this ever happens again.
    I've seen some of the worst driving you could imagine only be charged as careless. Dangerous is pretty difficult to get a charge on.

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  12. #41
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since90+2 View Post
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    Out of interest does diplomatic immunity cover all crimes? For instance could a diplomat shoot someone dead in the middle of a busy street and just be allowed to leave the country in full view of authorities?
    The closest example is probably the shooting of PC fletcher



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

  13. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    The closest example is probably the shooting of PC fletcher



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher

    The weapon probably left the country in the diplomatic 'bag' which is only supposed to contain documents or other items used by the state.
    Diplomatic status must great if the so called diplomat wishes to smuggle things around the world.

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