Scotland v Russia

[hibsbollah]

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The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.

Fully agree with all of that.

[CorrieHibs]

Kosovo with a massive win today against Czech Republic. Could be heading to the Euros!

Not bad for a country with a population of 1.8m. Only gained FIFA/UEFA membership in 2016. Won their Nations League group and currently top of their Euro 2020 group.

[J-C]

Robertson can maraude forward because Liverpool have superb defenders and midfielders to cover for him, if he did that for Scotland we'd be ripped apart even more. I noticed when O'Donnell went forward there was huge gaps due to no one filling in behind him, Russia exposed this.

[Allant1981]

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Not this again.

Robertson world class ?

He’s playing in a good team and terrible national team.

Why did he look so average once again last night ?

Put Messi in that Scotland team last night and you would have seen a world class player.

Good player doing well but World Class ?

Scotland hasn’t got a single world class player.

All in your opinion, everyone looked average last night and we have quite a few above average players

[Yorkshire HFC]

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Fully agree with all of that.

How come everything is the fault of the SFA? Surely the clubs are also responsible? What are Hibs doing to help the national team?

Do the clubs not have a duty to do more? They will benefit massively if the national team is successful.

[ekhibee]

Robertson's a very good player but didn't play well against Russia. I don't see the point in debating whether he's world class on this thread as it was about 1 specific game. A lot of people on this thread are quite determined to win petty and irrelevant arguments regarding his ability. It really doesn't matter as he didn't play well against Russia and he'd be the first to admit it.

[Allant1981]

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Robertson's a very good player but didn't play well against Russia. I don't see the point in debating whether he's world class on this thread as it was about 1 specific game. A lot of people on this thread are quite determined to win petty and irrelevant arguments regarding his ability. It really doesn't matter as he didn't play well against Russia and he'd be the first to admit it.

Dont think anyone is looking to win or have any arguments, it's called debate and there has been no arguments yet as far as I can see

[Jones28]

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The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.

A great summary ODS 👍🏻

[cabbageandribs1875]

Slivka starts for Lithuania v Ukraine

[Billy Whizz]

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Slivka starts for Lithuania v Ukraine

He’s on the bench

[cabbageandribs1875]

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He’s on the bench

had him in the first eleven when they put the teams up just before KO, anyway... 1-0 Ukraine after 6 mins



edit: actually, it must have been the substitutes line-up they had up...all 12 of them

[G B Young]

Steve Clarke: "For reasons I have yet to determine, we allowed Russia to dominate us."

Makes it sound like there's some sort of complex analysis required when the reason is simply that Russia were by far the better team.

[Wilson]

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Steve Clarke: "For reasons I have yet to determine, we allowed Russia to dominate us."

Makes it sound like there's some sort of complex analysis required when the reason is simply that Russia were simply by far the better team.

If Steve Clarke was the kind if coach that accepted that then his Killie side wouldn't have punched so much above its weight. Scotland should have been able to take something at Hampden.

[Pretty Boy]

I think in UK sport, probably not entirely relevant to football, there is a strange paradox in that funding is given to the sports in which we are successful but to secure the funding in the 1st place you have to have success and then continue to be successful and hit specified targets to maintain or grow said funding.

Over the last few years Britain has enjoyed success in the likes of cycling, hockey, boxing, rowing, equestrian, canoeing, diving, athletics and gymnastics. All have seen significant funding increases on the back of that. On the flip side the slow down in success in swimming has seen funding cut, handball, table tennis and wrestling saw their funding completely wiped out because they failed to meet the targets set.

Is it a coincidence that Iceland have enjoyed relative footballing success in recent years after investing a lot of money in both coaching and infrastructure? Is it a coincidence that in other sports the UK tends to perform best in the sports that receive the most funding?

Football is our nation sport but it's underfunded. How many clubs have affordable access to facilities such as those at the Oriam or Toryglen? Bairns playing football in the street might inject a sense of fun into football but to mould top players you need quality facilities and quality coaches. It's no coincidence Barcelona produce so many top young players; they don't pluck these guys off the street at 17, they are in their system from a young age. They train and play on top quality artificial, yes artificial, pitches, they are taken care off, educated and brought up in a culture of positivity and success. What's the difference between them and us? Money? Quality of coaching? Quality of infrastructure? I'd suggest all of them plus that mentality of having the unspecified 'it'.

I think in many ways our navel gazing, negative attitude towards Scottish football plays a part as well. Are young guys in Scotland proud to say they are football players or football supporters in the same way as they are in other countries? Football fans both allow our sport to be talked down and actively encourage those doing so. People take great pleasure in running down successful Scottish players, see the comments about Andy Robertson on this thread or the thread about Kirk Broadfoot. One is playing at the very top level whilst the other made a very good career using the ability he had; it seems some have taken great enjoyment from labelling one garbage or rubbish and the other as thick. Compare that with the way many rugby fans treat the national team. A lot of the rugby fans I know hold these guys up as what every boy in Scotland should aspire to be. As the national sport maybe it's time we injected a bit of pride and positivity back into the game at all levels to make young guys proud to be pursuing a career in the game. If the fans take pleasure in talking down players who have lived the dream at every opportunity it's no wonder there is a mentality issue with regards to striving to be better. What's the point if your achievements are just going to be belittled anyway?

[hfc rd]

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I think in UK sport, probably not entirely relevant to football, there is a strange paradox in that funding is given to the sports in which we are successful but to secure the funding in the 1st place you have to have success and then continue to be successful and hit specified targets to maintain or grow said funding.

Over the last few years Britain has enjoyed success in the likes of cycling, hockey, boxing, rowing, equestrian, canoeing, diving, athletics and gymnastics. All have seen significant funding increases on the back of that. On the flip side the slow down in success in swimming has seen funding cut, handball, table tennis and wrestling saw their funding completely wiped out because they failed to meet the targets set.

Is it a coincidence that Iceland have enjoyed relative footballing success in recent years after investing a lot of money in both coaching and infrastructure? Is it a coincidence that in other sports the UK tends to perform best in the sports that receive the most funding?

Football is our nation sport but it's underfunded. How many clubs have affordable access to facilities such as those at the Oriam or Toryglen? Bairns playing football in the street might inject a sense of fun into football but to mould top players you need quality facilities and quality coaches. It's no coincidence Barcelona produce so many top young players; they don't pluck these guys off the street at 17, they are in their system from a young age. They train and play on top quality artificial, yes artificial, pitches, they are taken care off, educated and brought up in a culture of positivity and success. What's the difference between them and us? Money? Quality of coaching? Quality of infrastructure? I'd suggest all of them plus that mentality of having the unspecified 'it'.

I think in many ways our navel gazing, negative attitude towards Scottish football plays a part as well. Are young guys in Scotland proud to say they are football players or football supporters in the same way as they are in other countries? Football fans both allow our sport to be talked down and actively encourage those doing so. People take great pleasure in running down successful Scottish players, see the comments about Andy Robertson on this thread or the thread about Kirk Broadfoot. One is playing at the very top level whilst the other made a very good career using the ability he had; it seems some have taken great enjoyment from labelling one garbage or rubbish and the other as thick. Compare that with the way many rugby fans great the national team. A lot of the rugby fans I know hold these guys up as what every boy in Scotland should aspire to be. As the national sport maybe it's time we injected a bit of pride and positivity back into the game at all levels to make young guys proud to be pursuing a career in the game. If the fans take pleasure in talking down players who have lived the dream at every opportunity it's no wonder there is a mentality issue with regards to striving to be better. What's the point if your achievements are just going to be belittled anyway?

The attendance last night at Murrayfield for the rugby was 53K. That’s 21K more than the attendance at Hampden.

Crazy thing is that I’m genuinely not surprised one bit with vast difference between the attendances at both Hampden & Murrayfield last night. It’s clear as day that folk would rather go and watch a meaningless rugby friendly against an “average opponent” with Scotland fielding a very young / 2nd string side over the national football team who’s game had way more importance to it due to needing a win to stand any chance of qualifying automatically for Euro 2020.

[Sir David Gray]

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The attendance last night at Murrayfield for the rugby was 53K. That’s 21K more than the attendance at Hampden.

Crazy thing is that I’m genuinely not surprised one bit with vast difference between the attendances at both Hampden & Murrayfield last night. It’s clear as day that folk would rather go and watch a meaningless rugby friendly against an “average opponent” with Scotland fielding a very young / 2nd string side over the national football team who’s game had way more importance to it due to needing a win to stand any chance of qualifying automatically for Euro 2020.

I'm not sure there's that many people who went to both Hampden and Murrayfield last night, who would have considered going to the other venue so I don't think it was a case of many people choosing to go to Murrayfield rather than Hampden.

I do think there is a general apathy towards Scottish football though that isn't necessarily the case with Scottish rugby. I also think the core support of the Scotland rugby team seem far more likely to turn up to Murrayfield than the core support of the football team are to turn up at Hampden.

[Smartie]

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I'm not sure there's that many people who went to both Hampden and Murrayfield last night, who would have considered going to the other venue so I don't think it was a case of many people choosing to go to Murrayfield rather than Hampden.

I do think there is a general apathy towards Scottish football though that isn't necessarily the case with Scottish rugby. I also think the core support of the Scotland rugby team seem far more likely to turn up to Murrayfield than the core support of the football team are to turn up at Hampden.

I was a core supporter until this campaign (had been in the supporters club for about 15 years).

Various factors led to me stopping going - the "week of football" nonsense being the main one. I can't be arsed going through to mediocre Scotland games on a Thursday or Monday night. When I followed Scotland is was about a day on the bevvy with a particular group of mates more than quality of football. If you know that a good chunk of games are going to be like that, you might pick the one or two interesting ones and go to those. Last night's game was probably the best one for me - a Friday night and an important game. I just couldn't muster up the enthusiasm and the group of people I used to go with has evaporated for various reasons anyway.

I was also miffed that they jacked the prices up too. I'm a lot skinter than I used to be and I've developed a consumer ego that doesn't like being pissed about or taken for granted. When an organisation as absolutely shambolic as the SFA decide they're going to charge significantly more to watch a side that isn't all that better and far less in demand in a pitiful national stadium then my personal pride wants to tell them to get stuffed.

Make no mistake - there is nothing I would like more than to go to watch Scotland play football, enjoy it, and do it with decent company. For many reasons the "experience of watching Scotland" has been torn to pieces in recent years - for me anyway. It wasn't long ago at all that Scotland had far better crowds and we would have sold out that game last night. That's why the SFA should be concerned and looking to make changes where they can.

[ekhibee]

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Dont think anyone is looking to win or have any arguments, it's called debate and there has been no arguments yet as far as I can see

There's no need to patronize me, and it wasn't debate, it was people constantly contradicting each other. The thread was about the Scotland v Russia game, not about how good a player Andy Robertson is.

[Allant1981]

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There's no need to patronize me, and it wasn't debate, it was people constantly contradicting each other. The thread was about the Scotland v Russia game, not about how good a player Andy Robertson is.

Wasnt trying to be patronising, there have been no arguments, one persons opinion versus another opinion on a player, a scotland player so it's relevant in the thread whether you think it or not

[ekhibee]

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Wasnt trying to be patronising, there have been no arguments, one persons opinion versus another opinion on a player, a scotland player so it's relevant in the thread whether you think it or not

I'm sure you weren't trying to be, but you were nevertheless. And it's not relevant to the thread if it's not talking about the Scotland v Russia game. There's far too many threads on hibs.net where people are allowed to go off on a tangent and end up discussing/debating/arguing about things which are not relevant to the subject of the thread.

[Allant1981]

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I'm sure you weren't trying to be, but you were nevertheless. And it's not relevant to the thread if it's not talking about the Scotland v Russia game. There's far too many threads on hibs.net where people are allowed to go off on a tangent and end up discussing/debating/arguing about things which are not relevant to the subject of the thread.

Dont think I was but fair enough, so have we not to talk about scotland players, just the team? well that's one you can take up with the admins, they obviously dont think its an issue,if we stuck to each thread and that topic alone it would be very boring but that's just my opinion

[Zazu62]

Every time I’ve seen Callum Mcgregor play for Scotland he’s been absolutely brutal, why does he get a game just because he plays for Celtic?

[CMurdoch]

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I've seen you say this many times but it's unlikely because their golden generation as you call it was not an accident, they worked hard at it. If anything the success of the last few years will inspire more kids to get into football and make it.

They already have a brilliant young attacking midfielder at CSKA who will replace him long term.

Spookily has the same surname.
Very impressive that he plays for CSKA.
I like the Iceland centre forward who played against Celtic for AIK.
Nothing sexy about the way he plays, just a very strong effective player in the recent Iceland tradition.

[CMurdoch]

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Uruguay ? Constantly better than us.

The population thing is a simple reply.

Why aren’t China and India amazing ?

New Zealand in rugby constantly prove it’s not all about population.

It’s CULTURE - meaning how people are brought up, education (zero private school players in squad), shambles of the SFA and that’s just to start.

If you want a longer list..off the top of my head

Jobs for the boys coaching at clubs
Old Firm dominance
Inept Refs
Awful TV deal
Project Brave or could say the previous and failed 2020 vision (google it)
Sectarianism being ignored
Poor infrastructure - how many clubs improve stadia?
League structure
Cup structure
National stadium fiasco
No one trusts the SFA / compliance officer etc
Lack of sponsors
Coach education poor

Uruguay - Their national team has been amazing given their population of 3.5 million but it has nothing to do with anything the Uruguayan football authorities are doing. Our domestic league is infinitely better than theirs by any measure and that includes the administration of the game by the governing body.
It’s not that Uruguayan football is any sort of egalitarian democracy. Their top domestic league averages 5,000 fans a game (compared to our 18k) despite 90% of the games being derbies (almost all the teams are from Montevideo). Uruguay’s “old firm” are Nacional (blue, white and red) and Peñarol, whose clashes are its clásicos, and which dwarf every other club in the country. TV rights are held by the cable channel Tenfield, owned by Paco Casal, the “super-agent” who also dominates sales of Uruguayan players abroad. Tenfield are only interested in games involving the two grandes (sound familiar?). There are also plentiful stories of corruption. The state of most smaller teams is precarious, loaded with debt and their players are paid late or never.


Why aren’t China and India amazing ?

Both have barely got started on the football front.
However i expect China to progress quickly in the next 15 years if their government decides that it is something that is important to them.
They are already making big inroads into other sports.


New Zealand in rugby constantly prove it’s not all about population.

Rugby Union is a minority world sport like Baseball so if you gear your sportsmen up to that one sport you can buck the population aspect.
The physical strength, size and speed of the Maori players has played a massive part in the New Zealand success in Rugby Union as the players with African backgrounds have assisted the Belgian national football team of late. The Scottish national teams of both sports have no such Ace.


I think all your other points are just the usual unevidenced blame raves that come up on here when Scotland and Hibs lose. Blame the administrators etc
The truth is Scotland need a Gareth Bale, Ronaldo type character to add to our good players to drag our team through at times of need.
Maybe that person will be a child of a recent African immigrant to Scotland.

Other stuff - New stands at the back of each goal at Hampden would create a wonderful partizan atmosphere not currently experienced and ditching the dreary dirge that is Flower of Scotland for the uplifting Scotland the Brave would also help. Alas both appear locked in for different reasons.

[CMurdoch]

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Spoke to an old coach who thinks the difference is kids (him) used to turn up with boots under their arm after getting 2 busses, these days they get dropped off by parents, and he said you can see they are there more because the parents want it rather than them.

The adult Scotttish guys in my team will blow off a match because it's their wedding anniversary and they are taking their wife out.
Years ago you couldnae do that. You would play for your team and make it up to your wife another night.
African guy in my team. His wife, who he loved very much, died last year and he insisted on not missing any matches!
That's the gulf in attitude shown in an extreme manner.

[Colr]

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Fully agree with all of that.

Me too. The SFA needs to be cleared out and reconstituted with a focus on developing the games grass roots through schools, kids clubs, etc.


Either that or a new body to take this role should be founded and the blazers left to one side.

[theonlywayisup]

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Me too. The SFA needs to be cleared out and reconstituted with a focus on developing the games grass roots through schools, kids clubs, etc.


Either that or a new body to take this role should be founded and the blazers left to one side.

Only "kids clubs" if you have to play for the team within your catchment. We've got to stop the dads who take their kids from one boys club to another just so that they get noticed.

I've seen examples of every week a new kid being "recruited" and the nett effect was a weakening of club morale, disruption to kids who had been "loyal" for years up until then. We need kids to play football with their pals and remove this elitism that is being established from a very early age.

[Allant1981]

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The adult Scotttish guys in my team will blow off a match because it's their wedding anniversary and they are taking their wife out.
Years ago you couldnae do that. You would play for your team and make it up to your wife another night.
African guy in my team. His wife, who he loved very much, died last year and he insisted on not missing any matches!
That's the gulf in attitude shown in an extreme manner.

Or its showing your wife some respect?

[lyonhibs]

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The adult Scotttish guys in my team will blow off a match because it's their wedding anniversary and they are taking their wife out.
Years ago you couldnae do that. You would play for your team and make it up to your wife another night.
African guy in my team. His wife, who he loved very much, died last year and he insisted on not missing any matches!
That's the gulf in attitude shown in an extreme manner.

Wait what? Scottish football is on its arse because men have a weaker attitude than others, prioritising their wedding anniversary over playing football? Am I reading that right?

We're just no very good. Got a few players that relatively regularly put in good performances at club level but they come to Scotland and the average calibre of player plummets, especially if we're looking to build from the back.

[Wilson]

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Or its showing your wife some respect?

That's a very sappy post #metoo sentiment. Such men were described as "whipped" back in the day. Nowadays 'the future is female'. If your missus wasn't on a pedestal before I'm dann sure she is now.

Wedding anniversaries aren't something to celebrate. They are a time of mourning. Any right thinking man should be drowning his sorrows in regret at his lost freedom!