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  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    What is wrong with older cars? I drove a 40+ year old MG for about 6 years and was stopped at the roadside by one of these emission type things where someone tries to make you see the error of your ways without thinking about what they are actually saying. A brand new electric vehicle was parked nearby, presumably for the public to salivate over. When I pointed out that my car was greener than the electric one I was laughed at and questioned about the CO2 levels from my car.
    I fully admitted that my levels were indeed high in comparison, but also stated that the manufacturers admit to the carbon footprint of a new car being 22 metric tons. My old car had a similar footprint obviously, but over 40 years was now down to half a ton a year before driving. If I buy a new electric thingy and renew it every five years then my footprint is over 8 times higher before driving. How is that being green?
    Good point


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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    What is wrong with older cars? I drove a 40+ year old MG for about 6 years and was stopped at the roadside by one of these emission type things where someone tries to make you see the error of your ways without thinking about what they are actually saying. A brand new electric vehicle was parked nearby, presumably for the public to salivate over. When I pointed out that my car was greener than the electric one I was laughed at and questioned about the CO2 levels from my car.
    I fully admitted that my levels were indeed high in comparison, but also stated that the manufacturers admit to the carbon footprint of a new car being 22 metric tons. My old car had a similar footprint obviously, but over 40 years was now down to half a ton a year before driving. If I buy a new electric thingy and renew it every five years then my footprint is over 8 times higher before driving. How is that being green?
    You are correct to a point. An old car has already effectively amortised its production footprint so from a total CO2 perspective driving an old car could be seen a relatively green in that sense. Which is possibly a good argument against scrappage schemes or the like.

    But there is also the air quality and immediate emissions element where clearly driving an old car compared to an EV is not green at all and is polluting the near environment to anyone around it.

    Finally you are comparing keeping a car for 40 years v renewing one every 5 years so itís not an equivalent comparison.

  4. #93
    Given the throw away culture we now seem to live in I think the comparison is a valid one. We have to stop just buying the latest model because a perfectly good car will be due it's first mot. Even though the last year has seen new car sales slump again, there are still 2.5 million new vehicles hitting the road every year. If we all move to electric vehicles in the next 5 years it will be an utter catastrophe as there is no way we can generate the amount of electricity to charge them. We have to look at every solution as no one idea is going to solve everything. Encouraging people to keep their cars for longer will not solve the problem, but it might just help a wee bit.

  5. #94
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    Tesla saying today that their labs have a battery that could last up to a million miles!!

    OK from lab to commercial is a long road but it shows just how early we are on the tech revolution of electric battery and storage journey.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    Given the throw away culture we now seem to live in I think the comparison is a valid one. We have to stop just buying the latest model because a perfectly good car will be due it's first mot. Even though the last year has seen new car sales slump again, there are still 2.5 million new vehicles hitting the road every year. If we all move to electric vehicles in the next 5 years it will be an utter catastrophe as there is no way we can generate the amount of electricity to charge them. We have to look at every solution as no one idea is going to solve everything. Encouraging people to keep their cars for longer will not solve the problem, but it might just help a wee bit.
    The environmental movement will fail if it is asking people to lower their living standards. Supporting the use of electric vehicles is helping to fund the innovation that is moving us towards carbon free motoring.
    And the grid will expand to cope with the rising demand for electricity. We are well capable enough of increasing generating capacity.


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  7. #96
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    We're already seeing a move away from the personal ownership of cars and the adoption of sharing models. It's happening very slowly and many are likely oblivious but young people in urban areas aren't interested in owning cars at anything like the same rate as their parents.

    Electric vehicles are incredibly important but we need less cars on the road and more walking and cycling.

    Not only is that good for the planet it's good for our terrible obesity crisis and will improve living in cities. Cars have dominated for far too long and taken priority. The majority of the time there is only one person in them, an incredibly inefficient way to get people around a city.

    I've given up my car at the end of last year and don't think I'll buy another one. With self driving cars a few years away the need to own your own car will likely disappear anyway.
    Last edited by neil7908; 12-09-2019 at 09:24 AM.

  8. #97
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil7908 View Post
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    We're already seeing a move away from the personal ownership of cars and the adoption of sharing models. It's happening very slowly and many are likely oblivious but young people in urban areas aren't interested in owning cars at anything like the same rate as their parents.

    Electric vehicles are incredibly important but we need less cars on the road and more walking and cycling.

    Not only is that good for the planet it's good for our terrible obesity crisis and will improve living in cities. Cars have dominated for far too long and taken priority. The majority of the time there is only one person in them, an incredibly inefficient way to get people around a city.

    I've given up my car at the end of last year and don't think I'll buy another one. With self driving cars a few years away the need to own your own car will likely disappear anyway.
    There was an item on the news yesterday about self driving cars. It was saying that the car will have sensors to make sure you’re paying attention to the road at all times while it’s driving you. That’s not my vision of self driving cars, I thought I’d be able to be having a kip or doing something useful on the journey. If I’ve got to be sitting there concentrating on the road I might as well just drive it myself. Here’s the story
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/busine...lf-driving-car

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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    There was an item on the news yesterday about self driving cars. It was saying that the car will have sensors to make sure youíre paying attention to the road at all times while itís driving you. Thatís not my vision of self driving cars, I thought Iíd be able to be having a kip or doing something useful on the journey. If Iíve got to be sitting there concentrating on the road I might as well just drive it myself. Hereís the story
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/busine...lf-driving-car
    Those will be the early models while people learn to trust the technology. As they become more advanced they will be completely self driving.


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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    There was an item on the news yesterday about self driving cars. It was saying that the car will have sensors to make sure youíre paying attention to the road at all times while itís driving you. Thatís not my vision of self driving cars, I thought Iíd be able to be having a kip or doing something useful on the journey. If Iíve got to be sitting there concentrating on the road I might as well just drive it myself. Hereís the story
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/busine...lf-driving-car
    At the moment there isn't any self driving cars available. Tesla are a bit misleading with what they come out with to make it seem like things are more advanced than they are.

    There are 5 levels of automation with 0 being all person and 5 fully autonomous where no human intervention is needed.

    We have the technology for level 3 at the moment. What the BBC are talking about is probably level 4 where the car can handle going along clearly marked highways easily enough but humans will need to be able to take control should something unexpected happen or to drive off the motorway.

    Its going to be a slow progression unfortunately towards full automation. It'll actually be quite dangerous in the initial few years as people will do daft things like fall asleep at the wheel (already happening now).

    Estimates are though that we'll have full level 5 automation within 5-10 years. That's when it'll be world changing.

    Lots of exciting ideas likely renting out your personal car as a taxi when your not using it etc that could be transformational.

  11. #100
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Those will be the early models while people learn to trust the technology. As they become more advanced they will be completely self driving.


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    Quote Originally Posted by neil7908 View Post
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    At the moment there isn't any self driving cars available. Tesla are a bit misleading with what they come out with to make it seem like things are more advanced than they are.

    There are 5 levels of automation with 0 being all person and 5 fully autonomous where no human intervention is needed.

    We have the technology for level 3 at the moment. What the BBC are talking about is probably level 4 where the car can handle going along clearly marked highways easily enough but humans will need to be able to take control should something unexpected happen or to drive off the motorway.

    Its going to be a slow progression unfortunately towards full automation. It'll actually be quite dangerous in the initial few years as people will do daft things like fall asleep at the wheel (already happening now).

    Estimates are though that we'll have full level 5 automation within 5-10 years. That's when it'll be world changing.

    Lots of exciting ideas likely renting out your personal car as a taxi when your not using it etc that could be transformational.
    The thing I want to know is will I be able to go to the pub, get pissed and get it to drive me home?

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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The thing I want to know is will I be able to go to the pub, get pissed and get it to drive me home?
    Yes


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  13. #102
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Yes


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    Bring them on

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  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The thing I want to know is will I be able to go to the pub, get pissed and get it to drive me home?
    That level of autonomy will essentially make the personal ownership of a car redundant unless you require to do lots of miles on a near daily basis. Which the vast majority of car owners donít.

    Effectively most transportation will take place by Ďtaxií where you just hail an autonomous car when required. The cost / benefit of doing so will vastly outweigh direct ownership.

    However such tech is still a long long way off. Itís technically possible just now but the introduction to the real world and then the transition from current state to sci-fi like worlds of us being zoomed about in driverless rides is not happening anytime soon.

    That said it will become much more common in closed loop / controlled areas like airports (where to some degree there is some already) much more quickly and I can envisage Ďautonomousí lanes etc on motorways being introduced first.

    As stated previously though autonomous driving and EV are two separate trends that just happen to be occurring together. I fully expect EV take up to progress very rapidly as the next gen of the main car manufacturers models start to roll out in the next few years.

    The VW ID range is a perfect example where the ID3 is essentially a Golf that will have (almost) comparable pricing and a range of over 250miles. That arrives soon and will be produced out of Zwickau facility which has had a £1bn retool to produce up to 300,000 EVís a year.

    Combine that with a lot of political backing and the introduction of low emissions zones etc and I reckon within 5 - 10 years the majority of family cars will be EV.

  15. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    The environmental movement will fail if it is asking people to lower their living standards. Supporting the use of electric vehicles is helping to fund the innovation that is moving us towards carbon free motoring.
    And the grid will expand to cope with the rising demand for electricity. We are well capable enough of increasing generating capacity.


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    Are you sure?

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...h-electricity-

  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The thing I want to know is will I be able to go to the pub, get pissed and get it to drive me home?
    That canít really be answered yet as legislation around the use of those is yet to be decided.

  17. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The thing I want to know is will I be able to go to the pub, get pissed and get it to drive me home?
    It exists. It's called a taxi.

  18. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    Absolutely. That article just points out we need to add generating capacity. Iím sure we will manage to do that.


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  19. #108
    I'm struggling to think about a British government being ahead of the curve, but it may happen.

  20. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    The environmental movement will fail if it is asking people to lower their living standards. Supporting the use of electric vehicles is helping to fund the innovation that is moving us towards carbon free motoring.
    And the grid will expand to cope with the rising demand for electricity. We are well capable enough of increasing generating capacity.


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    As a race, we will fail if we donít change our attitudes.

  21. #110
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    As a race, we will fail if we donít change our attitudes.
    I donít think thatís true. Continuing as we are would be catastrophic, but it wouldnít mean the end of humanity. Excluding America most developed countries are working to lower carbon emissions, itís the developing countries that are still building coal fire power stations and polluting on a massive scale. As these countries become wealthier their emissions will lower. Will it be enough? Probably not, but it wonít be bad enough to wipe us out, and eventually carbon emissions will be a thing of the past. There will likely be a lot of pain for some along the way thatís for sure.

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  22. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I donít think thatís true. Continuing as we are would be catastrophic, but it wouldnít mean the end of humanity. Excluding America most developed countries are working to lower carbon emissions, itís the developing countries that are still building coal fire power stations and polluting on a massive scale. As these countries become wealthier their emissions will lower. Will it be enough? Probably not, but it wonít be bad enough to wipe us out, and eventually carbon emissions will be a thing of the past. There will likely be a lot of pain for some along the way thatís for sure.
    I hope we donít have to see if it is true or not. I hope we can all make the changes bug and small to move away from it

    Rather ironically itís the people in those countries you mention that will face the consequences first, or rather are already facing them.

  23. #112
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    I hope we donít have to see if it is true or not. I hope we can all make the changes bug and small to move away from it

    Rather ironically itís the people in those countries you mention that will face the consequences first, or rather are already facing them.
    Your last point is so true sadly. We benefited in this country as did other developed countries from the industrial revolution where we pumped billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Our relative wealth is based on that, yet we look down on developing countries trying to do the same. In an ideal world the west would fund cleaner energy around the world, but it wonít happen. We live in a world where the super rich own all the wealth and they give nothing away, they mostly donít even pay tax. As you say the poorer countries will suffer the most.

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  24. #113
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Surely instead of looking at cars to ease this climate problem, we have to look at the fact that we're cutting down rainforests at an alarming rate. There is a balance on this planet and these forests are the lungs of the Earth, we've had worse pollution during the industrial revolution, yes we need to be more environmentally aware with vehicles and waste etc but we also need to take more control over what we're destroying.

  25. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    Surely instead of looking at cars to ease this climate problem, we have to look at the fact that we're cutting down rainforests at an alarming rate. There is a balance on this planet and these forests are the lungs of the Earth, we've had worse pollution during the industrial revolution, yes we need to be more environmentally aware with vehicles and waste etc but we also need to take more control over what we're destroying.
    Cars will take care of themselves now. Within 10 years all new ones will be electric. The biggest problems we have now is our gas domestic boilers. We need a massive switch to electric boilers and that is not going to be easy. Govt needs to massively incentivise them.
    As far as tree coverage goes, itís actually growing. Massive afforestation programmes are underway across the world. Project like the great green wall in Africa are massive. Scotland alone planted 22 million trees last year.
    This years fires have been pretty bad but Forrest fires are not new and are likely to increase. We need to keep planting to stay ahead. Overall we have 7% more forest now than in 1982. Thatís not bad going. We need more but it is progress.


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  26. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    Surely instead of looking at cars to ease this climate problem, we have to look at the fact that we're cutting down rainforests at an alarming rate. There is a balance on this planet and these forests are the lungs of the Earth, we've had worse pollution during the industrial revolution, yes we need to be more environmentally aware with vehicles and waste etc but we also need to take more control over what we're destroying.
    Forests are just one part of the jigsaw. Peat bog restoration and conservation is more important for sequestration of CO2.

    This old article shows we knew this a while ago. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...bal-total.html

    A bit of scientific research https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...nhouse-gasses/
    #Persevered
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  27. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Forests are just one part of the jigsaw. Peat bog restoration and conservation is more important for sequestration of CO2.

    This old article shows we knew this a while ago. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...bal-total.html

    A bit of scientific research https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...nhouse-gasses/
    Thanks for the information, it's a huge problem and everything needs to be looked at.

  28. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Cars will take care of themselves now. Within 10 years all new ones will be electric. The biggest problems we have now is our gas domestic boilers. We need a massive switch to electric boilers and that is not going to be easy. Govt needs to massively incentivise them.
    As far as tree coverage goes, itís actually growing. Massive afforestation programmes are underway across the world. Project like the great green wall in Africa are massive. Scotland alone planted 22 million trees last year.
    This years fires have been pretty bad but Forrest fires are not new and are likely to increase. We need to keep planting to stay ahead. Overall we have 7% more forest now than in 1982. Thatís not bad going. We need more but it is progress.


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    Electric boilers? Their running costs put them well out of the picture currently no?


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  29. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Electric boilers? Their running costs put them well out of the picture currently no?


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    Small scale renewables are the way to go for those who can. If your in flats though electric will need to be the ultimate solution. Storage heaters will likely be back in fashion as the electricity will soon be all renewable and newer models are incredibly efficient. Not so sure about electric boilers myself but they may work for some.

  30. #119
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil7908 View Post
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    Small scale renewables are the way to go for those who can. If your in flats though electric will need to be the ultimate solution. Storage heaters will likely be back in fashion as the electricity will soon be all renewable and newer models are incredibly efficient. Not so sure about electric boilers myself but they may work for some.
    A bit off topic, but a friend who lives in Clachtoll posted this on Twitter in response to the sale of SSE retail to OVO


    And SSE retain their distribution monopoly. The one that enables them to extort £20k to get power from their lines 70 metres from our house to a pole within the garden, not even to the house, making it better to stay off-grid.
    They live and run a very successful business off-grid, where a trip to the post office is a 12 mile round trip.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  31. #120
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Electric boilers? Their running costs put them well out of the picture currently no?


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    They are more expensive but if the aim is to get to net zero carbon emissions then all the gas boilers will need to go. Electric wet central heating boilers are getting better all the time. The govt will need to start taxing gas to reflect the cost of the carbon it releases. That will make the electric boilers more competitive with gas. And they are cheaper to buy, install and maintain already than gas boilers.


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