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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall View Post
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    Well Rory Stewart is clearly in the wrong party I’ll give you that. Gove though?

    i was just trying to make the point that in a whip system it may not be an entirely accurate representation of her own views and that maybe the next Lib Dem manifesto will be a more accurate reflection on where she stands.

    if she was a Tory why would she just not join the Conservative Party?
    Is she was anywhere near as principled as she's trying to present herself, then she would have stood up to the whip, instead of putting her own career first.


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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Stonewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Is she was anywhere near as principled as she's trying to present herself, then she would have stood up to the whip, instead of putting her own career first.
    True but probably applies to 90% of MPs. Particularly difficult given the fact that her party was in a coalition with the Toryís for much of her time as an MP and she was Nick Cleggís PPS I think.

    Or maybe the whips had something really damning on her and she didnít dare defy the whip.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Or to disregard it just sounds like someone who can't be bothered to actually look at her voting record over the years. She is a tory. Her record makes that very clear. Not only is she a tory, she's more of a tory than the likes of Rory Stewart and Michael Gove.
    This voting record stuff is cringeable. She was part of a junior partner in coalition govt and voted along with that govt like all the rest of her party. Exactly the same as almost all other MPs apart from the odd headbanger.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall View Post
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    True but probably applies to 90% of MPs. Particularly difficult given the fact that her party was in a coalition with the Toryís for much of her time as an MP and she was Nick Cleggís PPS I think.

    Or maybe the whips had something really damning on her and she didnít dare defy the whip.
    Youíre quite right except more like 99%.

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall View Post
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    True but probably applies to 90% of MPs. Particularly difficult given the fact that her party was in a coalition with the Toryís for much of her time as an MP and she was Nick Cleggís PPS I think.

    Or maybe the whips had something really damning on her and she didnít dare defy the whip.
    Well it would need to be something pretty damn damning. All the more reason not to trust her.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall View Post
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    if she was a Tory why would she just not join the Conservative Party?
    Because then she couldnít spend her life working towards being an agent provocateur of the highest order.

    Seriously you clearly have no idea how a long game works and just how well versed the Tories are in the game of sleeper agents (hard lessons from the Cold War). Itís obvious to all (well at least one person) that Jo is just a particularly well played pawn in the big bad Tories game of political espionage...

  8. #127
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Because then she couldnít spend her life working towards being an agent provocateur of the highest order.

    Seriously you clearly have no idea how a long game works and just how well versed the Tories are in the game of sleeper agents (hard lessons from the Cold War). Itís obvious to all (well at least one person) that Jo is just a particularly well played pawn in the big bad Tories game of political espionage...
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  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Because then she couldnít spend her life working towards being an agent provocateur of the highest order.

    Seriously you clearly have no idea how a long game works and just how well versed the Tories are in the game of sleeper agents (hard lessons from the Cold War). Itís obvious to all (well at least one person) that Jo is just a particularly well played pawn in the big bad Tories game of political espionage...
    Aye, very good. Remain ignorant all you want. Her voting record speaks for itself. If she actually had a soul, she never would have followed the tory whip, just to keep her own personal career intact.

    If you think another careerist politician who will always put the interests of her career above and beyond everything else, including the livelihoods of the people she's suppost to represent is the answer against the tories, then you bash on.

  10. #129
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Just watching her speech to conference.

    I've got a fair bit of good feeling towards the LibDem cause (if I were a Unionist that would be my party and post-independence I would like to see Scotland as a centrist country and would happily vote for a Scottish version) but I just cannot take to her at all.

    She absolutely reeks of insincerity.

    It takes a bit of doing but of all the cretins in the political arena right now, she's the one that annoys me the most.

  11. #130
    @hibs.net private member Hiber-nation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Just watching her speech to conference.

    I've got a fair bit of good feeling towards the LibDem cause (if I were a Unionist that would be my party and post-independence I would like to see Scotland as a centrist country and would happily vote for a Scottish version) but I just cannot take to her at all.

    She absolutely reeks of insincerity.

    It takes a bit of doing but of all the cretins in the political arena right now, she's the one that annoys me the most.
    Yes, this is the word. You just could not trust her.

    I also hate the way she continually says "well you know" when asked a challenging question.

  12. #131
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiber-nation View Post
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    Yes, this is the word. You just could not trust her.

    I also hate the way she continually says "well you know" when asked a challenging question.
    It's a shame because you get the feeling that the stage is set for the LibDems here, with the big 2 parties being in crisis.

    Paddy Ashdown, Menzies Campbell, Vince Cable, Shirley Williams - it would have been great to think that we might have one of this lot as a potential PM at as difficult a time as this. Good, genuine, trustworthy and competent people.

    I just don't get that feeling with Swinson at all.

  13. #132
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    If I lived in England she would get my vote before Johnson or Corbyn.


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  14. #133
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    If I lived in England she would get my vote before Johnson or Corbyn.


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    That goes without saying, but I'd probably wait to hear what the Monster Raving Looney Party had to say before making up my mind.

  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    If I lived in England she would get my vote before Johnson or Corbyn.


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    Why not just vote for Johnson directly?

  16. #135
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Why not just vote for Johnson directly?
    I know you have strong opinions about the LibDems and their statements regarding who they would and would not potentially go into coalition with, but for all the world it looks to me like they have set their stall out early to be direct opposition to the Tories with their clear and concise position on Brexit. It could appeal to the more moderate sides of both the Labour and Conservative parties (who no longer appear to have a home) as well as their own traditional voters.

    The centre ground is theirs for the taking and the only thing stopping them might be Swinson herself.
    Last edited by Smartie; 17-09-2019 at 04:21 PM.

  17. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I know you have strong opinions about the LibDems and their statements regarding who they would and would not potentially go into coalition with, but for all the world it looks to me like they have set their stall out early to be direct opposition to the Tories with their clear and concise position on Brexit. It could appeal to the more moderate sides of both the Labour and Conservative parties (who no longer appear to have a home) as well as their own traditional voters.

    The centre ground is theirs for the taking and the only things stopping them might be Swinson herself.
    Except, they don't have a clear and concise position on Brexit at all. They're just wording things in a clever way to make it seem like they do. Things such as "we'll reverse brexit", but only if they win a majority, which of course, is utterly impossible under the current political climate.

    They're saying things, but attaching conditions to them that they know will never be met and people are actually falling for it.

  18. #137
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Except, they don't have a clear and concise position on Brexit at all. They're just wording things in a clever way to make it seem like they do. Things such as "we'll reverse brexit", but only if they win a majority, which of course, is utterly impossible under the current political climate.

    They're saying things, but attaching conditions to them that they know will never be met and people are actually falling for it.
    I think any political party can only promise what he thinks he can deliver if they get a majority.
    So even Corbynís promise to negotiate a Labour brexit before having a peopleís vote and campaigning against their own deal can only be delivered if he wins a majority.
    Thatís how it works.


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  19. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    I think any political party can only promise what he thinks he can deliver if they get a majority.
    So even Corbynís promise to negotiate a Labour brexit before having a peopleís vote and campaigning against their own deal can only be delivered if he wins a majority.
    Thatís how it works.


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    True. But there's a difference between parties that mean what they say and parties that just say the 'right things' at any given time to increase their vote share. The Lib Dems have a long running history of doing this. They make promises that they know they'll never have to adhere to within a coalition. A Lib Dem majority would be a complete nightmare for them.

  20. #139
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    True. But there's a difference between parties that mean what they say and parties that just say the 'right things' at any given time to increase their vote share. The Lib Dems have a long running history of doing this. They make promises that they know they'll never have to adhere to within a coalition. A Lib Dem majority would be a complete nightmare for them.
    Iím pretty sure they would happily deliver on revoking article 50 which is their number 1 policy going into this election and will be the main reason they will gain many voters in the upcoming election.


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  21. #140
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    True. But there's a difference between parties that mean what they say and parties that just say the 'right things' at any given time to increase their vote share. The Lib Dems have a long running history of doing this. They make promises that they know they'll never have to adhere to within a coalition. A Lib Dem majority would be a complete nightmare for them.
    Being pro-Europe is central to everything they are about and will be very popular with their core support.

    These are slightly different times to normal where they'd be expected to play 3rd fiddle to the other 2 and only ever hope to be the makeweight in a coalition.

    Sticking the "revoke article 50" message out there might be popular and there are a lot of disillusioned Labour and Conservative voters out there - in both the Leave and Remain camps.

    I think they'll be quietly thinking they can sneak in and get a majority, and it might be that Labour and the Tories end up splitting the "Leave" vote.

    Maybe the SNP will hold the balance of power?

  22. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Iím pretty sure they would happily deliver on revoking article 50 which is their number 1 policy going into this election and will be the main reason they will gain many voters in the upcoming election.


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    They won't gain anywhere near enough seats to be in a position where they can single handedly revoke article 50. If they thought there was any chance whatsoever of that occuring, they wouldn't have made such a pledge. They're hardly going to allow themselves to be in a position where they would have to carry this out, as it would lead to full scale riots.

    It's their "number 1 policy" for 3 reasons:

    1) It wins votes
    2) Not enough votes that they'll ever be in a position where they can carry it out.
    3) It distracts people from their more sinister policies which they'd waste no time enacting should they enter another coalition with the Conservative Party.

  23. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Being pro-Europe is central to everything they are about and will be very popular with their core support.

    These are slightly different times to normal where they'd be expected to play 3rd fiddle to the other 2 and only ever hope to be the makeweight in a coalition.

    Sticking the "revoke article 50" message out there might be popular and there are a lot of disillusioned Labour and Conservative voters out there - in both the Leave and Remain camps.

    I think they'll be quietly thinking they can sneak in and get a majority, and it might be that Labour and the Tories end up splitting the "Leave" vote.

    Maybe the SNP will hold the balance of power?
    I believe Tim Farren and Vince Cable were both remainers and the Lib Dems on a whole are as well. However, I do not believe for one moment that Jo Swinson is a remainer as she's making herself out to be. Back in 2008, she was demanding an in/out referendum on european membership at Westminster. Yet we're supposed to believe that she would really be willing to reverse the outcome of the referendum now without another vote? I don't think so.

  24. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I think they'll be quietly thinking they can sneak in and get a majority.
    If theyíre genuinely thinking that, quietly or not, then theyíre not on this planet. Thereís absolutely no chance the Lib Dems are going from a dozen or so seats to 300 odds in one go. Or ever!

    As for Swinson, I canít put my finger on it, but thereís something sinister about her. I think sheís a Tory who realised that to get into parliament in Scotland (at that time) you couldnít be a Tory, so she became a Lib Dem.

  25. #144
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawheid View Post
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    If theyíre genuinely thinking that, quietly or not, then theyíre not on this planet. Thereís absolutely no chance the Lib Dems are going from a dozen or so seats to 300 odds in one go. Or ever!

    As for Swinson, I canít put my finger on it, but thereís something sinister about her. I think sheís a Tory who realised that to get into parliament in Scotland (at that time) you couldnít be a Tory, so she became a Lib Dem.
    I think that Brexit has blown everything we've ever known out of the water.

    We've not really resolved the Leave/Remain issue and it is the dominant issue for the vast majority of people in England. This is likely to be the primary motivational factor when it comes to voting intentions of about 90% of the UK.

    The LibDems have been consistent throughout and they have got in there early with their intention regards remaining in the EU. Their message could be very appealing to the disillusioned, disaffected retainers within especially the conservative but also the Labour Party. Corbyn isn't popular amongst those folk and they won't need all that much convincing to potentially look elsewhere.

    Who would have thought 10 years ago that the SNP would have had the electoral success they have had? Constitutional issues such as this are very emotive and can lead to the rule book being ripped up.

    Someone mentioned on here that the odds on a LibDem/ SNP coalition were very high. I'm starting to think it could be a shrewd bet.

    It will be very interesting to see how any election pans out as it may see more tactical voting than ever before.

    I think it is very hard to call at this stage and I wouldn't rule out something really bizarre happening.

  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    I believe Tim Farren and Vince Cable were both remainers and the Lib Dems on a whole are as well. However, I do not believe for one moment that Jo Swinson is a remainer as she's making herself out to be. Back in 2008, she was demanding an in/out referendum on european membership at Westminster. Yet we're supposed to believe that she would really be willing to reverse the outcome of the referendum now without another vote? I don't think so.
    You really do manipulate facts to portray a false position donít you? Arenít you ever embarrassed?

    Swinson was backing party policy in 2008. The Lib Dems were calling for an in/out referendum in which they would back staying in. And letís not forget this was under Nick Clegg, who may be many things but is as Europhile as they come.

    She criticised Cameron for calling a referendum that was all about managing dissent within the Tories, which everyone agrees with.

    And even if her personal view was to leave in 2008, which Iíve not seen any proof of - it is possible to change ones mind. Unfortunately there are a few too many swivel heads who want to direct anger against those who voted the other way in both referenda, rather than seeking to understand why they did and how to persuade them otherwise.

    Seems to me that Swinson on here attracts disproportionate vitriol and insults, usually of a personal nature (her accent etc). That suggests to me that she may be more of a threat to those posters than they care to admit. I suspect some of the ladies on here doth protest too much :-)

  27. #146
    Pun Lovin' Criminal Northernhibee's Avatar
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    Horrific.

    Looked like we could have a proper remain alliance to take it to the Tories and avoid a no deal by sticking together, leading to the Tories being out of government. Power gone to her head within a fortnight and putting that in jeapordy.

    If she ****s this up and causes a no deal I will be even angrier at her than anyone else.


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  28. #147
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northernhibee View Post
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    Horrific.

    Looked like we could have a proper remain alliance to take it to the Tories and avoid a no deal by sticking together, leading to the Tories being out of government. Power gone to her head within a fortnight and putting that in jeapordy.

    If she ****s this up and causes a no deal I will be even angrier at her than anyone else.
    There is no sign of any kind of remain alliance yet? Her job is to get as many votes as possible for the Lib Demís.
    There needs to be a deal between labour and the Lib Demís for there to be any type of remain alliance, and so far there is no sign of that. I donít see how itís jo Swindonís fault though.


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  29. #148
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    There is no sign of any kind of remain alliance yet? Her job is to get as many votes as possible for the Lib Demís.
    There needs to be a deal between labour and the Lib Demís for there to be any type of remain alliance, and so far there is no sign of that. I donít see how itís jo Swindonís fault though.


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    Corbyn keeps rambling on about securing a good Brexit deal to put to the public when the overwhelming majority of his party want to Remain.

    Itís like he is on a different planet to the membership, although in reality it is the likes of Seamas Milne manipulating a well-intended but not very bright man for their ideological purposes.
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  30. #149
    @hibs.net private member Bostonhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawheid View Post
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    If theyíre genuinely thinking that, quietly or not, then theyíre not on this planet. Thereís absolutely no chance the Lib Dems are going from a dozen or so seats to 300 odds in one go. Or ever!

    As for Swinson, I canít put my finger on it, but thereís something sinister about her. I think sheís a Tory who realised that to get into parliament in Scotland (at that time) you couldnít be a Tory, so she became a Lib Dem.


    She'll flip back to her trend of voting with the Tories faster than you can say Nick Clegg.

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  31. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawheid View Post
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    If theyíre genuinely thinking that, quietly or not, then theyíre not on this planet. Thereís absolutely no chance the Lib Dems are going from a dozen or so seats to 300 odds in one go. Or ever!

    As for Swinson, I canít put my finger on it, but thereís something sinister about her. I think sheís a Tory who realised that to get into parliament in Scotland (at that time) you couldnít be a Tory, so she became a Lib Dem.
    You've absolutely nailed it about her.

    I made the mistake of voting for the Lib Dems in 2010 and will never repeat that mistake again. I'd honestly rather vote Tory.

    I'm a massive remainer but their policy of simply revoking article 50 is total undemocratic nonsense that they are only going with as they know they don't have a chance in hell of getting a majority. They might as well promise everyone a unicorn.

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