hibs.net Messageboard

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 45 of 45
  1. #31
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cramond
    Posts
    4,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Was that scenario not gone over somewhere else in the last couple of days with regard to the old Council Tax Freeze? or am I imagining it?
    Depends what you mean by "gone over". I'm still waiting for a source to the claims made.


  2. Log in to remove the advert

  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    16,683
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's the problem though. A local council could effectively use powers to hike up taxes for example, when it is already recieving a reasonable level of funding from central government, just so they can claim that they're being starved by central government. They can then use the additional funding they raise to trigger a propaganda campaign in their local community against central government.

    You may think that seems far fetched. But it clearly isn't a far fetched prospect to those in central government that as you say, don't really want to give up too much control. Which doesn't only apply to the SNP, but virtually every central government.
    If you want proper localism the all the spending has to be raised locally. No more central grants.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    9,482
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Genuine question. What do people think would happen if an SNP led government devolved increasingly more powers to local authorities. Including authorities controlled by the Tories and Labour?

    Do you think they would use these additional powers to make their areas better off? Or do you think they would abuse these powers to generate a coup against central government?
    They would clearly mount a coup.

    Use the money raised locally to buy red and blue tanks and then roll down the high street in them...a physical and metaphorical race to the bottom to see who could over throw the SNP.

    I mean what else would local Tory and Labour councils do?

  5. #34
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Spinning a Yarn
    Posts
    13,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Depends what you mean by "gone over". I'm still waiting for a source to the claims made.
    You said

    The loss to local councils through the tax freeze was 100% covered from Holyrood. They gave back exactly what these councils would have raised had it not been for the freeze. So what did some of these councils do? They deliberately miss managed funds in order to generate the claim that they weren't recieving the full amount, when all along, they were.
    MA suggested it wasn't true and gave an example how it wasn't true.

    MA suggested google, but he also suggested checking the Scotgov website. It will be there if it happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Go and Google, I’m not your researcher. And what accounts?

    The ringfenced money was announced by government, it is on their website. That’s both the teaching money and the integration money.

    COSLA defined the shortfall based on reporting from their members. Again, it is all on their website.
    I wonder if you can give a link to prove your assertion that The loss to local councils through the tax freeze was 100% covered from Holyrood.



    Now, back to the topic of this thread rather than the usual bickering. do you have any positive ideas as to how power can be in the hands of local communities I, and I'm sure others, would like to hear them
    Last edited by Moulin Yarns; 17-07-2019 at 03:08 PM. Reason: regrets
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cramond
    Posts
    4,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If you want proper localism the all the spending has to be raised locally. No more central grants.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's not that easy. Although what you say appears to be ideologically sound on the surface. Implementing such a system in practice isn't without it's complications. Somethings have to be overseen nationally to maintain consistency where it's required. Could you imagine trying to adjust to a system where laws and regulations change every several miles you travel?

  7. #36
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Spinning a Yarn
    Posts
    13,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's not that easy. Although what you say appears to be ideologically sound on the surface. Implementing such a system in practice isn't without it's complications. Somethings have to be overseen nationally to maintain consistency where it's required. Could you imagine trying to adjust to a system where laws and regulations change every several miles you travel?
    Watch the youtube links and come back once you understand how it already works in other small countries. Oh aye, and read my fantasy ideal structure posted this morning and see if you can come up with an alternative vision.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #37
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cramond
    Posts
    4,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You said

    MA suggested it wasn't true and gave an example how it wasn't true.

    MA suggested google, but he also suggested checking the Scotgov website. It will be there if it happened.

    I wonder if you can give a link to prove your assertion that The loss to local councils through the tax freeze was 100% covered from Holyrood.

    Now, back to the topic of this thread rather than the usual bickering. do you have any positive ideas as to how power can be in the hands of local communities I, and I'm sure others, would like to hear them
    I'm trying to find you definitive figures rather than just articles. Although here is an interesting one from 2015 where Labour were attacking the SNP Government for apparently "overfunding" the freeze - https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/60...eze-overfunded

  9. #38
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cramond
    Posts
    4,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Watch the youtube links and come back once you understand how it already works in other small countries. Oh aye, and read my fantasy ideal structure posted this morning and see if you can come up with an alternative vision.
    Even in these small scandinavian paradises, not everything is localized. There is still a central tier of government that over sees laws that must remain consistent throughout the entirety of the country..

  10. #39
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Spinning a Yarn
    Posts
    13,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Even in these small scandinavian paradises, not everything is localized. There is still a central tier of government that over sees laws that must remain consistent throughout the entirety of the country..
    Where did I imply they were?

    If you read my totally fictional vision of shangri-la you would realise that decision making starts at the bottom (local) then up to regional and finally at national level, I envisage tax raising at the local level, bigger than Maybe Aye's suggestion of 500-700, but at something like existing LA wards, some tax goes to the region to cover their function and some to the national council for major infrastructure and legislation, which is what I said this morning.


    You will also see from my model of government that there is a continuity that currently doesn't exist. a number of local representatives also take part at regional level and some at regional level also take part in decision making at the national level. And costs of my model are kept to a sustainable level by only recovering lost earnings/income plus expenses meaning you need to want to make a difference rather than milk the cash cow as it sometimes appears at the moment.



    It's funny that among independence support Norway is seen as a decent model to follow, but you are a bit dismissive.


    Now, back to the council tax figures, perhaps you will stop demanding evidence that contradicts your opinion, when you now realise how difficult it is to find anything concrete to back up your claim. Before jumping in, find facts to support your case first. That will make your case stronger.
    Last edited by Moulin Yarns; 17-07-2019 at 04:11 PM. Reason: clarification
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  11. #40
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cramond
    Posts
    4,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Where did I imply they were?

    If you read my totally fictional vision of shangri-la you would realise that decision making starts at the bottom (local) then up to regional and finally at national level, I envisage tax raising at the local level, bigger than Maybe Aye's suggestion of 500-700, but at something like existing LA wards, some tax goes to the region to cover their function and some to the national council for major infrastructure and legislation, which is what I said this morning.


    You will also see from my model of government that there is a continuity that currently doesn't exist. a number of local representatives also take part at regional level and some at regional level also take part in decision making at the national level. And costs of my model are kept to a sustainable level by only recovering lost earnings/income plus expenses meaning you need to want to make a difference rather than milk the cash cow as it sometimes appears at the moment.



    It's funny that among independence support Norway is seen as a decent model to follow, but you are a bit dismissive.


    Now, back to the council tax figures, perhaps you will stop demanding evidence that contradicts your opinion, when you now realise how difficult it is to find anything concrete to back up your claim. Before jumping in, find facts to support your case first. That will make your case stronger.
    Difference is, i'm actually trying to find figures. Instead of expecting people to meekly accept the utterance of a news article.

  12. #41
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Spinning a Yarn
    Posts
    13,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Difference is, i'm actually trying to find figures. Instead of expecting people to meekly accept the utterance of a news article.
    My point is to do the research first before you post then you can sit back with a self satisfying smirk 😉


    And anything to say about the other points I made? It is the topic of the thread after all. 😁
    Last edited by Moulin Yarns; 17-07-2019 at 04:38 PM.

  13. #42
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    16,683
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's not that easy. Although what you say appears to be ideologically sound on the surface. Implementing such a system in practice isn't without it's complications. Somethings have to be overseen nationally to maintain consistency where it's required. Could you imagine trying to adjust to a system where laws and regulations change every several miles you travel?
    There would still be a national govt. but for there to be true localism then every penny spent by a local authority should be raised by that authority.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If you want proper localism the all the spending has to be raised locally. No more central grants.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There would still be a national govt. but for there to be true localism then every penny spent by a local authority should be raised by that authority.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    While I agree with the general drift of your thought I believe that the block grant from central government was originally intended to assist poorer communities to provide the same level of local services as richer ones. For that reason I'd keep an element of central distribution of funds to improve equality between areas.

  15. #44
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    16,683
    Quote Originally Posted by ballengeich View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    While I agree with the general drift of your thought I believe that the block grant from central government was originally intended to assist poorer communities to provide the same level of local services as richer ones. For that reason I'd keep an element of central distribution of funds to improve equality between areas.
    Or less well off areas compete harder for Jobs, making it easier for companies to relocate there etc?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cramond
    Posts
    4,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Or less well off areas compete harder for Jobs, making it easier for companies to relocate there etc?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ah, the old capitalist myth. "If everybody just tries harder, we'll all be better off". (Except for those who arent).

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
hibs.net ©2012 All Rights Reserved