Ron pays £3.5 million for 22.650 million shares

[tonyrougier123]

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I have read a few posts on here suggesting small shareholders should throw their lot in with HSL to create a wedge bloc of shares, I think someone might even have suggested that small shareholders donate their shares to HSL?

I have a small shareholding. If RG turned out to be some pillager, intent on destroying the club to construct new builds for student lets on ER and a luxury estate with a Championship golf course at East Mains, then I will turn up and exercise my vote to try and save our club, but let’s face it it isn’t sounding necessary.

What actually concerns me more is the notion I should give my shares to some unclear fan-led consortium when I’m not even sure what that means!

When I first started posting on here, the main forum was riven on a daily basis with arguments about whether Farmer and Petrie were mismanaging the club. There was lots of talk of the sale of the Golden Generation - ‘family silver’ was a common term, lots of talk about investing in an East Stand being a waste of money and that we had overspent on the HTC. Lots of talk about an opportunity to ‘spend to accumulate’ on players and forget about living sustainably.

If the owners of the club, then or now, make any executive decision, it will be bound to piss some people off. When Petrie did it, it pissed many, many people off but IMO he was generally right and his critics were wrong.

I wouldn’t want my shares sitting in a bloc that with the best will in the world is probably going to want instant gratification.

My point is any shift or initiative by RG may well be supported by a number of shareholders as they consider it to be beneficial to the club, while many supporters, including shareholders, will take an opposing view.

There have been so many red herrings attached over the years to Farmer and Petrie. Within days of RG’s takeover we have post after post on here about dilution whilst ignoring the fact that dilution seems to be the trade-off for hard cash into the club. There is maybe a psychological thing for some of us, especially those of us old enough to remember the dark days of thirty years ago, but that doesn’t translate into a need for knee-jerk mistrust. Cautious and optimistic welcome, maybe, yes.

Agree 100% 👍

[BSEJVT]

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The time for worrying is not now.
The time to worry is when Ron is selling up.

He is approaching his mid 60's so his time as Hibs owner may be no more than 10 years.
He has intentionally bought a club where the hard work has been done and he can enjoy his toy.
i.e. all assets owned by the club, no debt etc etc.
Our club is as stable as a football club can be.

I believe he will enhance East Mains with a full size indoor pitch and other improvements.
He will use his expertise and contacts to build the Hibs brand, attract investment etc.
By this approach he will get his money back when he sells

He will not spend massively different amounts of money on bringing in players than we currently do.
Perhaps half the £500k we previously paid to our debt each season will find it's way to the managers annual coffers which will equate to another Mallan type quality signing each season which would see us able to buy 3 decent transfer fee players a season.

Going back to the real issue, all we can hope is that when the time comes for him to sell, he sells to someone Hibs minded.
Sir Tom & Rod have temporarily defused the bomb but it will start ticking again about 10 years hence.

That's pretty much where I am on the issue

[BSEJVT]

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Exactly - which is why I think these individual shareholders should seriously consider transferring ownership to HSL. It will be good to see what arrangement Ron comes to with HSL as this might be a situation that may not need to arise.

There is absolutely no need for individual fams to do this and even as a Long time supporter of HSL I wouldn't recommend they did this.

All they have to, and would do, is vote against anything to the detriment of the club in a doomsday scenario.

Holding Hibs shares individually means a lot to people and I certainly wouldn't give up mine.

Of far greater concern are the nominee holdings if, as I think they would tip the balance, in the unlikely event that it ever came to it.

[GreenLake]

Thousands of stocks face dilution each trading day in the free market process of raising capital. Whether it is good or bad for existing shareholders is difficult to predict in advance.

I'm not sure but I imagine Google, Apple, IBM, Microsoft and many other stocks everyone wished to have been long on were subject to several dilutions from pre-IPO to now.

Personally, I have benefited from several stock dilutions on a biotech startup that was held from pennies pre-IPO through several dilutions up to an acquisition at 130 times the original price. I can't remember getting overly bent out of shape but I didn't like the thought of dilution! Who would? I liked that my diluted stock was worth far more than before.

There is no evidence of foul play in this deal yet and dilution of ownership is maybe not as horrible as it sounds.

Are US businessmen bad? I can think of a few who have fleeced me in the 15 years I have lived here. I can think of a few who have been fantastic for investments or services. Ron was born in Peru, educated in Australia and did business in Spanish Language television in the USA. I doubt he is a stereotype of an American businessman. He sounds really unusual and interesting to say the least.

Do Liverpool fans still hate Henry?

[blackpoolhibs]

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The time for worrying is not now.
The time to worry is when Ron is selling up.

He is approaching his mid 60's so his time as Hibs owner may be no more than 10 years.
He has intentionally bought a club where the hard work has been done and he can enjoy his toy.
i.e. all assets owned by the club, no debt etc etc.
Our club is as stable as a football club can be.

I believe he will enhance East Mains with a full size indoor pitch and other improvements.
He will use his expertise and contacts to build the Hibs brand, attract investment etc.
By this approach he will get his money back when he sells

He will not spend massively different amounts of money on bringing in players than we currently do.
Perhaps half the £500k we previously paid to our debt each season will find it's way to the managers annual coffers which will equate to another Mallan type quality signing each season which would see us able to buy 3 decent transfer fee players a season.

Going back to the real issue, all we can hope is that when the time comes for him to sell, he sells to someone Hibs minded.
Sir Tom & Rod have temporarily defused the bomb but it will start ticking again about 10 years hence.

I dont think saying we are a ticking bomb is really needed, every club will sell at some stage or another, its just called life.

A ticking bomb is a club like sevco or the duncans under the mad one, we are until something happens, under new stewardship with the promise of some investment for more infrastructure, and debt free giving us more expendable income.

Enjoy the ride.

[FilipinoHibs]

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Thousands of stocks face dilution each trading day in the free market process of raising capital. Whether it is good or bad for existing shareholders is difficult to predict in advance.

I'm not sure but I imagine Google, Apple, IBM, Microsoft and many other stocks everyone wished to have been long on were subject to several dilutions from pre-IPO to now.

Personally, I have benefited from several stock dilutions on a biotech startup that was held from pennies pre-IPO through several dilutions up to an acquisition at 130 times the original price. I can't remember getting overly bent out of shape but I didn't like the thought of dilution! Who would? I liked that my diluted stock was worth far more than before.

There is no evidence of foul play in this deal yet and dilution of ownership is maybe not as horrible as it sounds.

Are US businessmen bad? I can think of a few who have fleeced me in the 15 years I have lived here. I can think of a few who have been fantastic for investments or services. Ron was born in Peru, educated in Australia and did business in Spanish Language television in the USA. I doubt he is a stereotype of an American businessman. He sounds really unusual and interesting to say the least.

Do Liverpool fans still hate Henry?

Iin the open market share prices go up so dilution is offset by rising prices. The new hi-techs tend to be cash rich and don't need to raise capital through new issues. The trend has actually been to buy back shares which pushes prices up.

To be honest if HSL raised its share ownership it might have a seat on the board. They would be heard but probably have little influence. Ron may want fan representation on the board to hear views which may of course not be representative of a wider fan base.
But as many have said he and his people will be driving the direction of the club from now on.

[FilipinoHibs]

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Agree 100% 👍

.me to😀

[monarch]

Despite extensive research about Ron on Google i’ve been unable to dig up the phrase “glib and shameless liar”. The Daily Record will be sad about that. 😏

[hughio]

Grateful thanks to those who have thrown some light on this for me.Its a complex scenario but as always integrity is key.STF will have ensured his legacy is not wasted.💚

[Argylehibby]

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Exactly - which is why I think these individual shareholders should seriously consider transferring ownership to HSL. It will be good to see what arrangement Ron comes to with HSL as this might be a situation that may not need to arise.

I couldn't agree less with the bit in bold tbh. Like many individual shareholders I chose that route over HSL for a number of reasons the most obvious ones being I wanted to own shares in the club and to vote on matters at GM's based on my own opinion. When you say transferring you really mean gifting and relinquishing your ability to have 100% control over the investment you have made.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that you don't need to attend a meeting to vote. You have the opportunity to vote by appointing the chairman of the meeting to vote on your behalf and to instruct him on how to vote on each resolution. Yes, apathy may affect the number of people taking the time to vote but if the matter was that contentious then I'm sure the vast majority of those individual shareholders would vote.

[GreenLake]

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Iin the open market share prices go up so dilution is offset by rising prices. The new hi-techs tend to be cash rich and don't need to raise capital through new issues. The trend has actually been to buy back shares which pushes prices up.

To be honest if HSL raised its share ownership it might have a seat on the board. They would be heard but probably have little influence. Ron may want fan representation on the board to hear views which may of course not be representative of a wider fan base.
But as many have said he and his people will be driving the direction of the club from now on.

In the case of football, dilution will be acceptable if Ron continues to invest and the team has more success on the pitch. I really hope it works out for him and us.

I have not seen buybacks in any of my startup investments but like dilutions the results could be viewed as a negative. Buybacks are largely funded by the 'free cash' on offer from bond issues. Executives should be forced to buy more shares at the same time as buybacks and put in lockup for a year or two!

[One Day Soon]

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I don't see the shares bought by Ron Gordon as a dilution of existing shares.

The 125 million shares and £ 2.5 million share capital at 2 pence per share was approved at an AGM 4 years ago.

All that has happened is that the remainder of the approved shares have now been issued.

This could have happened at any time and the buyers of the remainder of the shares could have been anyone - including HSL if the capital had been there. So anyone buying shares since that AGM was well warned that the issuing of the balance of the shares would have an effect on ALL previously issued shares.

Worrying about dilution is a bit like worrying about worrying about the restaurant bill - you know its coming at some point and you're already committed to it.

[tamig]

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There is absolutely no need for individual fams to do this and even as a Long time supporter of HSL I wouldn't recommend they did this.

All they have to, and would do, is vote against anything to the detriment of the club in a doomsday scenario.

Holding Hibs shares individually means a lot to people and I certainly wouldn't give up mine.

Of far greater concern are the nominee holdings if, as I think they would tip the balance, in the unlikely event that it ever came to it.

The concern I have with the individual shares is that I don’t think a lot of the shareholders would attend meetings or vote when their support is needed.

[tamig]

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I couldn't agree less with the bit in bold tbh. Like many individual shareholders I chose that route over HSL for a number of reasons the most obvious ones being I wanted to own shares in the club and to vote on matters at GM's based on my own opinion. When you say transferring you really mean gifting and relinquishing your ability to have 100% control over the investment you have made.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that you don't need to attend a meeting to vote. You have the opportunity to vote by appointing the chairman of the meeting to vote on your behalf and to instruct him on how to vote on each resolution. Yes, apathy may affect the number of people taking the time to vote but if the matter was that contentious then I'm sure the vast majority of those individual shareholders would vote.

And thats my concern - only the majority would bother to vote. It needs them all.

[FilipinoHibs]

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In the case of football, dilution will be acceptable if Ron continues to invest and the team has more success on the pitch. I really hope it works out for him and us.

I have not seen buybacks in any of my startup investments but like dilutions the results could be viewed as a negative. Buybacks are largely funded by the 'free cash' on offer from bond issues. Executives should be forced to buy more shares at the same time as buybacks and put in lockup for a year or two!

Buybacks are financed by surplus cash from a profitable business where there is no further scope for investment. Bond issues which are loans, are used by companies to fund investment or other financial obligations if they are insufficiently profitable to fund with cash.

Private companies are in particular vulnerable to dilution as new investors are frequently brought in to add capital to smaller business. We fit into the latter category.

I think the dilution is a false arguement as under both HFC and Ron we will have a voice and presence but little influence or impact on the real decision making.

[Andy.1875]

Is it still possible to buy personnel shares or is HSL the only option now?

[GreenLake]

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Buybacks are financed by surplus cash from a profitable business where there is no further scope for investment. Bond issues which are loans, are used by companies to fund investment or other financial obligations if they are insufficiently profitable to fund with cash.

Private companies are in particular vulnerable to dilution as new investors are frequently brought in to add capital to smaller business. We fit into the latter category.

I think the dilution is a false arguement as under both HFC and Ron we will have a voice and presence but little influence or impact on the real decision making.

In the US, debt financed buybacks were as high as 34% out of total in 2017. It fell last year probably due to Fed hiking but might pick up with the next round of cuts.

[MyJo]

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I couldn't agree less with the bit in bold tbh. Like many individual shareholders I chose that route over HSL for a number of reasons the most obvious ones being I wanted to own shares in the club and to vote on matters at GM's based on my own opinion. When you say transferring you really mean gifting and relinquishing your ability to have 100% control over the investment you have made.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that you don't need to attend a meeting to vote. You have the opportunity to vote by appointing the chairman of the meeting to vote on your behalf and to instruct him on how to vote on each resolution. Yes, apathy may affect the number of people taking the time to vote but if the matter was that contentious then I'm sure the vast majority of those individual shareholders would vote.

Once HSL no longer have the option to buy shares in the club maybe it would be worthwhile rebranding it as a new shareholders association.

They manage the shares that have been bought through the scheme on behalf of their members. Individual shareholders who would prefer to hold their shares themselves could then be invited to join and pledge support of HSL without physically handing over their shares and agree to give HSL first refusal on buying their shares if they decide to sell them in the future.

This way we could get a true picture of how much of the club is genuinely in the hands of supporters and improve confidence in our ability to protect the club if we know, for example, that 30% of the shares are held by HSL and others who wouldn't allow any future owner to gain a 75% holding and to do whatever they wanted.

[tamig]

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Once HSL no longer have the option to buy shares in the club maybe it would be worthwhile rebranding it as a new shareholders association.

They manage the shares that have been bought through the scheme on behalf of their members. Individual shareholders who would prefer to hold their shares themselves could then be invited to join and pledge support of HSL without physically handing over their shares and agree to give HSL first refusal on buying their shares if they decide to sell them in the future.

This way we could get a true picture of how much of the club is genuinely in the hands of supporters and improve confidence in our ability to protect the club if we know, for example, that 30% of the shares are held by HSL and others who wouldn't allow any future owner to gain a 75% holding and to do whatever they wanted.

That sounds like a pretty decent compromise and is maybe something HSL would like to look at. Its vital that there is one body overseeing the “safe” shares imo.

[jacomo]

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I dont think saying we are a ticking bomb is really needed, every club will sell at some stage or another, its just called life.

A ticking bomb is a club like sevco or the duncans under the mad one, we are until something happens, under new stewardship with the promise of some investment for more infrastructure, and debt free giving us more expendable income.

Enjoy the ride.

Why are we calling them duncans now?

Asking for a friend.

[Keith_M]

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Why are we calling them duncans now?

Asking for a friend.

Check the video in THIS article

[jacomo]

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Check the video in THIS article

Jambos getting trolled by Judy Murray.

Duncans it is.

[FilipinoHibs]

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In the US, debt financed buybacks were as high as 34% out of total in 2017. It fell last year probably due to Fed hiking but might pick up with the next round of cuts.

The figures for previous years were lower - around 25% according to JP Morgan and only part of funded by loans. But overwhelming majority of buybacks are funded by excess cash. An overwhelmingly majority loans used to fund investment.

[DanishJohn]

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I couldn't agree less with the bit in bold tbh. Like many individual shareholders I chose that route over HSL for a number of reasons the most obvious ones being I wanted to own shares in the club and to vote on matters at GM's based on my own opinion. When you say transferring you really mean gifting and relinquishing your ability to have 100% control over the investment you have made.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that you don't need to attend a meeting to vote. You have the opportunity to vote by appointing the chairman of the meeting to vote on your behalf and to instruct him on how to vote on each resolution. Yes, apathy may affect the number of people taking the time to vote but if the matter was that contentious then I'm sure the vast majority of those individual shareholders would vote.

Thanks for this. Could you please tell us how many individual shareholders there are?

[Argylehibby]

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Thanks for this. Could you please tell us how many individual shareholders there are?

Sorry DJ I have no idea what the register of shareholders looks like now. I do recall some time back the register was posted on here but I can't recall the numbers involved.

[FilipinoHibs]

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Sorry DJ I have no idea what the register of shareholders looks like now. I do recall some time back the register was posted on here but I can't recall the numbers involved.

Go to the link at start of thread and look at the confirmation statement from 6 Feb 2019. That has the full list of share holders. 99.605 million shares issued then. A further 2.745 million issued over the course if 2019 before the 22.650 issued to Ron.

[FilipinoHibs]

Satisfaction of charge notices posted on companies house website. Documents available on 13 July.

[cocteautwin]

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Satisfaction of charge notices posted on companies house website. Documents available on 13 July.

Is this normal? I’ve never seen charges over a companies assets unless there’s been loans somewhere in the corporate structure.


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[Smidge]

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Is this normal? I’ve never seen charges over a companies assets unless there’s been loans somewhere in the corporate structure.


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Will most likely relate to the satisfaction of security to HFC Holdings now that the debt has been paid off.

There is also a cash deposit security to Santander for £6k, which I suspect will be security for merchant services (using card machines etc) to protect the bank from claims on folks' cards when they pay. This might now also have been removed as a condition given that the club is now debt free.

[FilipinoHibs]

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Will most likely relate to the satisfaction of security to HFC Holdings now that the debt has been paid off.

There is also a cash deposit security to Santander for £6k, which I suspect will be security for merchant services (using card machines etc) to protect the bank from claims on folks' cards when they pay. This might now also have been removed as a condition given that the club is now debt free.

Yes both the release of the floating charge held by HFC on the mortgage now that has been paid off/partially written off. But also I think the ability for Ron's company to put a floating charge over ER if he lends money to Hibs to build an indoor facility and academy. This latter agreement was registered on 2nd July and full details on companies house website. The new ones are all releases of charges.