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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    The block grant is a fraction of the tax revenues raised in Scotland that is sent back to Holyrood. With independence the money raised in Scotland will stay here and there will be no need for a block grant.
    Tax revenues raised in Scotland were £60bn and the block grant was £33bn.

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    We are in danger of disappearing down the rather complex rabbit hole of Scottish funding and spending but you need to factor in that recent changes have seen about 40% of tax raised in Scotland stays in Scotland.

    However maybe the best view (and as we know GERS has many flaws but appears to be the best of a limited bunch) is the following:

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13287

    That clearly shows Scotland runs a very large deficit indeed.

    The Guardian summarised it as thus:

    The latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) data for Scotland shows that for 2017-18 overall state spending hit £73.4bn compared to tax income of just under £60bn, including oil revenues. That left a deficit for the year of £13.4bn, compared with £13.5bn the year before. Scotlandís deficit was equivalent to 7.9% of GDP, while for the UK as a whole it was 1.9%.


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  3. #62
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    If in doubt shout oil.

    Is this the oil that raised just £266M in 2016/17? What % of our budget would that have been and where would the rest of come from? Great for the Climate Emergency we are in as well?

    Scotland has a declining number of tax payers so where will the shortfall come from to make up this declining revenue? Tax increases? Spending cuts?

    The block grant also makes up a considerable % of our budget, what will this be replaced with?

    Oil is not the answer to all of the above.
    This is the greatest problem that the Scottish economy has at present, and it is not going to be improved after Brexit.

    Don't you think a reasonable argument exists regarding Scotland having the relevant levers to alter immigration policy and address this very significant point, rather than have this policy directed by somewhere that has a very different set of immigration needs and wants?

    Do you really find it preferable to have the strength and comfort of being part of a greater entity in order to deal with the problems this situation brings, rather than actually have the power to do something about it in the first place.

    I think this is the strongest pro-independence argument that exists right now.

    Also (and I have to say I don't really like this argument), could it be said that Scotland has a diminishing number of tax payers because it is so easy for our talented young Scots to go elsewhere in the UK, particularly London, where job prospects are much better? Stick a dirty great hard border between us and London (but not the rest of the EU) and might we be able to hang onto Scots who currently choose to live and work elsewhere in the UK and pay tax into the coffers of another geographical part of the UK?

  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member StevieC's Avatar
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    A big positive is obviously being part of a larger tax pool, that can provide financial assistance and stability in areas that would struggle to cope.

    A bit like an insurance policy that can assist with repairs from a burst pipe based on the fact that it takes in payments from lots of people that currently donít need assistance.

    However, the problems occur when it is mid-managed. Paying out more than it can afford and running up a debt creates instability. Not providing equal support across its customer base creates unhappy customers. Refusing to pay out in certain cases has customers looking to go elsewhere.

    Yes, the UK can provide assistance and stability due to its size. But when the ďmanagementĒ do not cater for the needs of ALL its customers then there is a problem. London upgrades, HS2, poverty in northern England.

    There are lots of positive reasons that being part of a well run UK would benefit Scotland .. but if the system is broken, then itís time to move elsewhere.

    On the subject of oil .. I agree with those that have said you canít counter it into a reason for leaving. It will at some point run out and my personal view is that it should be factored out of an economic plan and instead be used as an investment fund (eg renewables).

    The Barnett formula was a Scottish benefit on the back of the oil revenues. There are already movements at Westminster to change/remove this, so I have no doubt it would be ditched the second the oil runs out. That would leave Scotland with a lower budget and rising costs, and of course lots of people blaming the Scottish Government for failing services.

    The UK government has already stopped Scottish funding in renewable development projects, some might say that they donít want to see us being successful.
    But you know it ain't all about wealth,
    as long as you make a note to .. EXPRESS YOURSELF!

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    This is the greatest problem that the Scottish economy has at present, and it is not going to be improved after Brexit.

    Don't you think a reasonable argument exists regarding Scotland having the relevant levers to alter immigration policy and address this very significant point, rather than have this policy directed by somewhere that has a very different set of immigration needs and wants?

    Do you really find it preferable to have the strength and comfort of being part of a greater entity in order to deal with the problems this situation brings, rather than actually have the power to do something about it in the first place.

    I think this is the strongest pro-independence argument that exists right now.

    Also (and I have to say I don't really like this argument), could it be said that Scotland has a diminishing number of tax payers because it is so easy for our talented young Scots to go elsewhere in the UK, particularly London, where job prospects are much better? Stick a dirty great hard border between us and London (but not the rest of the EU) and might we be able to hang onto Scots who currently choose to live and work elsewhere in the UK and pay tax into the coffers of another geographical part of the UK?
    If we want to attract more taxpayers to Scotland then we have 3 nation's next door to us that speak our language, share many of our values and beliefs and have no problem with freedom of movement restrictions. Why are we not doing something to attract the English, Welsh and Northern Irish to come and work in Scotland. That would go some way to addressing this problem.

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Only...50% of our budget according to Scottish Government figures.

    As I said Scotland has an ageing population with a declining number of taxpayers. That gap needs filled, so tax increases? Spending cuts?

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/role-income-tax-scotlands-budget/pages/3/

    2.1 How is Scotlandís funding changing?

    Until recently, Scottish Government revenue came almost exclusively via a Block Grant from the UK Government i.e. a budget which was set by the UK Government and Parliament based on spending decisions for England and Wales, which the Scottish Parliament could decide how to spend. The devolution of some tax powers in the Scotland Act 2016 means that decisions made in Scotland now have greater influence over the size of the Scottish Budget. However even when the full set of tax powers agreed in the Scotland Act 2016 are devolved, the Block Grant set by the UK Government will still make up around 50% of our budget.
    Scotland isn't alone in having an aging population however the recent spat in England, where considerably less is spent on their aging population proportionately, illustrates how Scotland benefits from making decisions for itself.
    Space to let

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    If we want to attract more taxpayers to Scotland then we have 3 nation's next door to us that speak our language, share many of our values and beliefs and have no problem with freedom of movement restrictions. Why are we not doing something to attract the English, Welsh and Northern Irish to come and work in Scotland. That would go some way to addressing this problem.
    You donít think we attract people from other parts of the uk to Scotland?


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  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member StevieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    If we want to attract more taxpayers to Scotland then we have 3 nation's next door to us that speak our language, share many of our values and beliefs and have no problem with freedom of movement restrictions. Why are we not doing something to attract the English, Welsh and Northern Irish to come and work in Scotland. That would go some way to addressing this problem.
    Because many of the jobs would not be enticing enough to the majority of the people in these countries. Hospitality, farming, unskilled labour.. these are the areas that have the biggest employment problems .. there wonít be many of them filled by migration within the UK.

    The English language is the second language of the vast majority of those that speak a second language in the EU, so I donít think you can put up a language barrier.

  9. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Scotland isn't alone in having an aging population however the recent spat in England, where considerably less is spent on their aging population proportionately, illustrates how Scotland benefits from making decisions for itself.
    So Scotland is spending more on this ? Surely that's because we can choose a different path with the arrangements we have, we can choose to have free prescriptions, baby boxes, tuition fees, social care, free bus passes etc. We have these choices today and can choose a different path if we want? Your point proves this, we can do this today, nobody is stopping us.

    Will all this be 'free' in an Independent Scotland?
    Last edited by James310; 23-06-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    This is the greatest problem that the Scottish economy has at present, and it is not going to be improved after Brexit.

    Don't you think a reasonable argument exists regarding Scotland having the relevant levers to alter immigration policy and address this very significant point, rather than have this policy directed by somewhere that has a very different set of immigration needs and wants?

    Do you really find it preferable to have the strength and comfort of being part of a greater entity in order to deal with the problems this situation brings, rather than actually have the power to do something about it in the first place.

    I think this is the strongest pro-independence argument that exists right now.

    Also (and I have to say I don't really like this argument), could it be said that Scotland has a diminishing number of tax payers because it is so easy for our talented young Scots to go elsewhere in the UK, particularly London, where job prospects are much better? Stick a dirty great hard border between us and London (but not the rest of the EU) and might we be able to hang onto Scots who currently choose to live and work elsewhere in the UK and pay tax into the coffers of another geographical part of the UK?
    The last paragraph is nonsense. There is no benefit from having any kind of border other than the softest of soft borders like we have just now. We can still be independent with a border that soft though.


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  11. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    You donít think we attract people from other parts of the uk to Scotland?


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    Could we not do more?

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Could we not do more?
    Absolutely, but Scotland is not in full control of all the powers that may make Scotland a better place to live and work.


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  13. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Absolutely, but Scotland is not in full control of all the powers that may make Scotland a better place to live and work.


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    We have control of Health and Education which are consistently top of people's priorities if you were considering moving to another country to work, we have control of income tax so could incentivise people as well. We are in control of the things that matter.

  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    We have control of Health and Education which are consistently top of people's priorities if you were considering moving to another country to work, we have control of income tax so could incentivise people as well. We are in control of the things that matter.
    Business taxes? That might be the sort of thing that might draw some job creating investment if it were so desired.


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  15. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Business taxes? That might be the sort of thing that might draw some job creating investment if it were so desired.


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    We already have the lowest rate of corporation tax in any G7 country, and it's coming down again in 2020.

    So would you reduce it even more to attract businesses to Scotland?

  16. #75
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    Too wee too poor end off
    Every positive is really a negative and only works when we are part of UK.

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  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Positives Of The Union

    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    We already have the lowest rate of corporation tax in any G7 country, and it's coming down again in 2020.

    So would you reduce it even more to attract businesses to Scotland?
    Possibly. It certainly works for Ireland. Is the G7 what itís all about?


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  18. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Possibly. It certainly works for Ireland.


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    Yes but the EU want to end that ASAP.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ax-897813.html


    I am sure some of your fellow nationalists would not be so accommodating to the likes of Apple, Google and Amazon using Scotland in the same way they use Ireland.

  19. #78
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Can I be the first person to point out that this thread has flipped to become about how to improve Scotland, either in or out of the union.

    As a contribution, Scotland already attracts people from throughout the UK, within 1 mile of my postcode are the following properties https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property...Channel=buying.


    And this sold in less than a month.
    https://search.savills.com/list?Tenu...b2NhdGlvbiJ9XQ


    We are attractive to wealthy retired people. Or people looking for holiday homes, there is one across the road from the one that has been sold, £650,000 holiday home for a Hong-Kong based person.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    So Scotland is spending more on this ? Surely that's because we can choose a different path with the arrangements we have, we can choose to have free prescriptions, baby boxes, tuition fees, social care, free bus passes etc. We have these choices today and can choose a different path if we want? Your point proves this, we can do this today, nobody is stopping us.

    Will all this be 'free' in an Independent Scotland?
    111 Powers are currently being lined up to be grabbed from the Scottish Parliament, by the Tory Westminster government. These powers currently reside, and are looked after by our government in Edinburgh. The Westminster government have already stolen cash from the EU, destined for Scottish Hill farmers, and dispersed it throughout England and Wales.

    This gives you a clear indication of how the Scottish Parliament is viewed from England.

    They're positively ****ting in our back yard, all for the union.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  21. #80
    @hibs.net private member StevieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    We already have the lowest rate of corporation tax in any G7 country, and it's coming down again in 2020.
    Why do Amazon and Google base themselves elsewhere and pay their taxes there instead of in the UK????
    But you know it ain't all about wealth,
    as long as you make a note to .. EXPRESS YOURSELF!

  22. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by StevieC View Post
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    Why do Amazon and Google base themselves elsewhere and pay their taxes there instead of in the UK????
    Because it's 12.5% corporation tax. But as pointed out the EU are looking to stop this. 40% of Irish Corporation tax comes from 10 companies, is that the basis to build a sustainable long term economy?

  23. #82
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Because it's 12.5% corporation tax. But as pointed out the EU are looking to stop this. 40% of Irish Corporation tax comes from 10 companies, is that the basis to build a sustainable long term economy?
    If the 10 companies are sustainable and long term, then yes.

  24. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    If the 10 companies are sustainable and long term, then yes.
    What is your definition of long term sustainable? In a rapidly moving world is anything? Blackberry 10 years ago was worth $60BN and would be welcomed by any country, now it's worth a fraction of that.

    Big risk to rely on a small number of companies that could move to the next low tax country at the stroke of a pen, or the filling in of an online form.

    Surprised this sudden support for businesses like Apple, Amazon and Google, thought they were evil. Now we want to attract them.

  25. #84
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Because it's 12.5% corporation tax. But as pointed out the EU are looking to stop this. 40% of Irish Corporation tax comes from 10 companies, is that the basis to build a sustainable long term economy?
    Out of curiosity, who are the 10 companies and is there any reason why they have not moved from Ireland?
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  26. #85
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    What is your definition of long term sustainable? In a rapidly moving world is anything? Blackberry 10 years ago was worth $60BN and would be welcomed by any country, now it's worth a fraction of that.

    Big risk to rely on a small number of companies that could move to the next low tax country at the stroke of a pen, or the filling in of an online form.

    Surprised this sudden support for businesses like Apple, Amazon and Google, thought they were evil. Now we want to attract them.
    Blackberry isn't worth what it once was, because other companies came along and took their place in the market. The 10 companies that make up 40% of the corporation tax intake in Ireland are not always the same 10 companies, it changes over time.

  27. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Blackberry isn't worth what it once was, because other companies came along and took their place in the market. The 10 companies that make up 40% of the corporation tax intake in Ireland are not always the same 10 companies, it changes over time.
    And what happens when another country offers a lower rate of corporation tax?

    It's funny having arguments with nationalists about how low we can cut tax for big business and attract the likes of Apple, Amazon and Google. Strange days.

  28. #87
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    And what happens when another country offers a lower rate of corporation tax?

    It's funny having arguments with nationalists about how low we can cut tax for big business and attract the likes of Apple, Amazon and Google. Strange days.
    People who are pro independence can come from all walks of life. Whoís to say what direction a future Scottish govt might go. The important thing is it would be their choice good or bad.


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  29. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Out of curiosity, who are the 10 companies and is there any reason why they have not moved from Ireland?
    Apple, Google, Facebook and Microsoft are 4. The rest are a mixture of other industries. Apple though is by far the largest by a considerable distance followed by Google.

    Here is a good article explaining how volatile it can be relying on such a small base of companies for such a large % of your tax.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/201...annual-report/


    "The report also shows that the share of corporation tax paid by the top ten corporate taxpayers now accounts for 45% of all the corporation tax paid, up from 40% the year before.

    Almost Ä1 in every Ä5 of tax collected by the Revenue Commissioners came from corporation tax last year - an extraordinarily high proportion by international standards.

    The amount paid surged by 26%, underlining again the volatile nature of this tax head and how vulnerable the public finances have become to the risk of a sudden downturn in corporation tax payments"

    Do you think that's a model we should adopt?

  30. #89
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Apple, Google, Facebook and Microsoft are 4. The rest are a mixture of other industries. Apple though is by far the largest by a considerable distance followed by Google.

    Here is a good article explaining how volatile it can be relying on such a small base of companies for such a large % of your tax.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/201...annual-report/


    "The report also shows that the share of corporation tax paid by the top ten corporate taxpayers now accounts for 45% of all the corporation tax paid, up from 40% the year before.

    Almost Ä1 in every Ä5 of tax collected by the Revenue Commissioners came from corporation tax last year - an extraordinarily high proportion by international standards.

    The amount paid surged by 26%, underlining again the volatile nature of this tax head and how vulnerable the public finances have become to the risk of a sudden downturn in corporation tax payments"

    Do you think that's a model we should adopt?
    Ireland used to be poorer than Scotland, now itís a lot richer. They must be doing something right. If those companies leave then whatís the worst that can happen? Ireland has to put their corporation tax up?


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  31. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Ireland used to be poorer than Scotland, now itís a lot richer. They must be doing something right. If those companies leave then whatís the worst that can happen? Ireland has to put their corporation tax up?


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    The worst that could happen? Well as that article describes they would see a massive fall in tax revenues and therefore have to cut public spending significantly or increase taxes elsewhere.

    If you think we should follow that model that's fine, but let's not pretend it comes without any risks. I would say they are quite significant and very volatile.

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