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  1. #31
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    Positives Of The Union

    Somewhat ironically against the Brexit backdrop the free movement of people, goods and services within the UK is a clear benefit to being in the Union.

    Personally though I would say that from an economic perspective itís the access to, and the free movement of, a very deep pool of capital that is of the most significant advantage.

    Edit: I should also have added the ability of the UK Treasury to raise debt...having the backing of such a large economy undoubtedly protects Scotland from the vagaries of the international sov. Debt market.

    And finally being part of a tax base that is substantially deeper and wider than what an Indy Scotland would have is also a significant benefit.

    The trade off for both of course is the limited access of the oft mentioned Ďleversí.
    Last edited by RyeSloan; 23-06-2019 at 08:53 AM.


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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Callum_62 View Post
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    A small oil rich nation? Disaster looming

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    If in doubt shout oil.

    Is this the oil that raised just £266M in 2016/17? What % of our budget would that have been and where would the rest of come from? Great for the Climate Emergency we are in as well?

    Scotland has a declining number of tax payers so where will the shortfall come from to make up this declining revenue? Tax increases? Spending cuts?

    The block grant also makes up a considerable % of our budget, what will this be replaced with?

    Oil is not the answer to all of the above.
    Last edited by James310; 23-06-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    If in doubt shout oil.

    Is this the oil that raised just £266M in 2016/17? What % of our budget would that have been and where would the rest of come from?

    Scotland has a declining number of tax payers so where will the shortfall come from to make up this declining revenue? Tax increases? Spending cuts?

    The block grant also makes up a considerable % of our budget, what will this be replaced with?

    Oil is not the answer to all of the above.
    When you can decide your own laws then you can make changes, ideas like legalising weed, Colorado alone has a similar sized population to Scotland and has recently passed over a billion in tax revenue from it, add in the extra tourism because of this then you are on a money spinner

  5. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    When you can decide your own laws then you can make changes, ideas like legalising weed, Colorado alone has a similar sized population to Scotland and has recently passed over a billion in tax revenue from it, add in the extra tourism because of this then you are on a money spinner
    So weed is the answer? Sometimes I do wonder if Nicola Sturgeon has been smoking something.

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member Callum_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    If in doubt shout oil.

    Is this the oil that raised just £266M in 2016/17? What % of our budget would that have been and where would the rest of come from? Great for the Climate Emergency we are in as well?

    Scotland has a declining number of tax payers so where will the shortfall come from to make up this declining revenue? Tax increases? Spending cuts?

    The block grant also makes up a considerable % of our budget, what will this be replaced with?

    Oil is not the answer to all of the above.
    Ah right I forgot. Our massive oil and gas reserves are a burden.

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  7. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Callum_62 View Post
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    Ah right I forgot. Our massive oil and gas reserves are a burden.

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    They help, but are not the answer to everything. But would you like to answer the questions? Or not?

  8. #37
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Somewhat ironically against the Brexit backdrop the free movement of people, goods and services within the UK is a clear benefit to being in the Union.

    Personally though I would say that from an economic perspective itís the access to, and the free movement of, a very deep pool of capital that is of the most significant advantage.

    Edit: I should also have added the ability of the UK Treasury to raise debt...having the backing of such a large economy undoubtedly protects Scotland from the vagaries of the international sov. Debt market.

    And finally being part of a tax base that is substantially deeper and wider than what an Indy Scotland would have is also a significant benefit.

    The trade off for both of course is the limited access of the oft mentioned Ďleversí.
    Is being part of a large country an advantage? In Europe it seems like smaller countries have higher living standards? Can those countries not raise debt? I havenít heard that? How does a country like Iceland get by? They have a population smaller than Edinburgh but appear to be a lot richer?


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  9. #38
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    So weed is the answer? Sometimes I do wonder if Nicola Sturgeon has been smoking something.
    Its one of a few measures like getting rid of the cost of trident that we could use to boost our coffers

  10. #39
    @hibs.net private member Callum_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    They help, but are not the answer to everything. But would you like to answer the questions? Or not?
    Well I'd like to know another small oil and natural gas rich country that is poor.

    Venezuela? Possibly although the way they are run certainly raises questions on that

    Why do you think we are so important in this "family of nations" although suddenly sidelined throughout the whole brexit campaign

    What were the 17/18 oil and gas revenue figures?

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    Last edited by Callum_62; 23-06-2019 at 09:26 AM.

  11. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    When you can decide your own laws then you can make changes, ideas like legalising weed, Colorado alone has a similar sized population to Scotland and has recently passed over a billion in tax revenue from it, add in the extra tourism because of this then you are on a money spinner
    You just have to look at the law change coming in October to see that this government will not be legalising any drugs. Those who fail the swab test will be prosecuted whether they are impaired or not.

  12. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    Its one of a few measures like getting rid of the cost of trident that we could use to boost our coffers
    Getting rid of Trident would again help, but it's pretty small fry. It was Alex Salmond that said it would save about £166M a year.

    In a budget of £33BN it would hardly make a dent.

  13. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Callum_62 View Post
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    Well I'd like to know another small oil and natural gas rich country that is poor.

    Venezuela? Possibly although the way they are run certainly raises questions on that

    Why do you think we are so important in this "family of nations" although suddenly sidelined throughout the whole brexit campaign

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    Can you not answer the questions though? Why ignore my questions and ask me one?

    While oil is always going to help it is not the answer to everything, and how does it fit in with the climate emergency? Oil revenues raised £266M in 2016/17, our budget over the same period was £33BN. So oil revenues made up a very small percentage of that.

    Nigeria is oil rich, but still not exactly a high roller.

  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Would Norway not be a better oil comparison?

    And If not why not?
    Space to let

  15. #44
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killiehibbie View Post
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    You just have to look at the law change coming in October to see that this government will not be legalising any drugs. Those who fail the swab test will be prosecuted whether they are impaired or not.
    I thought that was purely for driving, if it is the new I have no issues with that

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member Callum_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Would Norway not be a better oil comparison?

    And If not why not?
    Coz they are very well off and that doesn't fit in

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  17. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    I thought that was purely for driving, if it is the new I have no issues with that
    How can they say a driver is unfit days or even weeks after having a joint?

  18. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Would Norway not be a better oil comparison?

    And If not why not?
    Because it's much cheaper to extract a barrel of oil in Norway than it is in Scotland?

  19. #48
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Oil should not form any meaningful part of the independence case. There are plenty of poor countries that have oil like Venezuela or Saudi Arabia. And itís a finite resource that we should be moving away from anyway.
    Independence is about so much more than that.


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  20. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Oil should not form any meaningful part of the independence case. There are plenty of poor countries that have oil like Venezuela or Saudi Arabia. And itís a finite resource that we should be moving away from anyway.
    Independence is about so much more than that.


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    Clearly not for some on here, oil and Norway is the answer to pretty much everything.

  21. #50
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Positives Of The Union

    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Because it's much cheaper to extract a barrel of oil in Norway than it is in Scotland?
    Itís the same for both countries? Although the UK treasury take a chunk of Scotlandís.


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  22. #51
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Clearly not for some on here, oil and Norway is the answer to pretty much everything.
    And there are plenty on the unionist side that shout currency in answer to any question.


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  23. #52
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killiehibbie View Post
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    How can they say a driver is unfit days or even weeks after having a joint?
    Valid point, I naively thought it would be for people under the influence at the time, if it's residual in your system then that's another matter, every day is a school day, with fresh information people can learn and change their opinion on things, lots of folk on here could take something from that!!

  24. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    And there are plenty on the unionist side that shout currency in answer to any question.


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    And everything else, like declining tax revenues (mentioned above) loss of the block grant (mentioned above as well) plus lots more.

    Mock if you want, currency played a significant part in the 2014 referendum. It will continue to play a significant part when what has been selected is the preferred choice of 14%. The other 86% will need to be persuaded.

  25. #54
    @hibs.net private member Callum_62's Avatar
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    So a positive of the union is we don't need to concern ourselves too much with what to do with our oil revenue

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  26. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Callum_62 View Post
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    So a positive of the union is we don't need to concern ourselves too much with what to do with our oil revenue

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    Correct, because we are big enough to absorb years when the revenue is so small it makes little impact to the overall much larger budget. In an Independent Scotland it would be a big shock, not so much when we are part of the UK.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...30bn-1-4800803

    Glad you have come round.
    Last edited by James310; 23-06-2019 at 10:15 AM.

  27. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    Valid point, I naively thought it would be for people under the influence at the time, if it's residual in your system then that's another matter, every day is a school day, with fresh information people can learn and change their opinion on things, lots of folk on here could take something from that!!
    Maybe it won't be as bad as it sounds but it certainly looks as though they're going for zero tolerance.

  28. #57
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Positives Of The Union

    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    And everything else, like declining tax revenues (mentioned above) loss of the block grant (mentioned above as well) plus lots more.

    Mock if you want, currency played a significant part in the 2014 referendum. It will continue to play a significant part when what has been selected is the preferred choice of 14%. The other 86% will need to be persuaded.
    The block grant is a fraction of the tax revenues raised in Scotland that is sent back to Holyrood. With independence the money raised in Scotland will stay here and there will be no need for a block grant.
    Tax revenues raised in Scotland were £60bn and the block grant was £33bn.

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    Last edited by Ozyhibby; 23-06-2019 at 10:26 AM.

  29. #58
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    So weed is the answer? Sometimes I do wonder if Nicola Sturgeon has been smoking something.
    If weeds is the answer I'm a billionaire. I just need some help getting rid of them. Any offers?
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

  30. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Is being part of a large country an advantage? In Europe it seems like smaller countries have higher living standards? Can those countries not raise debt? I havenít heard that? How does a country like Iceland get by? They have a population smaller than Edinburgh but appear to be a lot richer?


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    Iceland is a unique case but considering its currency devalued by 50%, its stock market fell 95%, most businesses went bankrupt and mortgage costs doubled in 2008 defo not one that shows the resilience of smaller nations. Sure it has rebounded, based almost solely on tourism, but the huge pain of the bust is something that Scotland could and should never contemplate as wanting to be exposed to.

    The comparison to the size of Edinburgh is interesting though. An independent Edinburgh state would undoubtedly be a rather rich state indeed.

    My points stand though being part of the UK brings a stability to tax revenues and access to the things I have mentioned.

  31. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    The block grant is a fraction of the tax revenues raised in Scotland that is sent back to Holyrood. With independence the money raised in Scotland will stay here and there will be no need for a block grant.
    Tax revenues raised in Scotland were £60bn and the block grant was £33bn.

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    Only...50% of our budget according to Scottish Government figures.

    As I said Scotland has an ageing population with a declining number of taxpayers. That gap needs filled, so tax increases? Spending cuts?

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/role-income-tax-scotlands-budget/pages/3/

    2.1 How is Scotlandís funding changing?

    Until recently, Scottish Government revenue came almost exclusively via a Block Grant from the UK Government i.e. a budget which was set by the UK Government and Parliament based on spending decisions for England and Wales, which the Scottish Parliament could decide how to spend. The devolution of some tax powers in the Scotland Act 2016 means that decisions made in Scotland now have greater influence over the size of the Scottish Budget. However even when the full set of tax powers agreed in the Scotland Act 2016 are devolved, the Block Grant set by the UK Government will still make up around 50% of our budget.
    Last edited by James310; 23-06-2019 at 10:39 AM.

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