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  1. #151
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    Johnson won't be around for long assuming he's elected.
    I'd give him 18 months.
    With a different government things could get better.
    Sorry to sound optimistic but I wouldn't panic yet. I certainly wouldn't listen to the opportunistic Sturgeon who's a fanatic nationalist hellbent on breaking up the UK.
    "Things could get better".... but they may not. There are 2 certainties though. Scotland will never be the one's to make that decision in the UK and secondly, even if by some miracle things do get better, it's only a matter of time before a wave of toryism spreads over England again to undo any improvements.

    Think i'll put my trust in the fanatic nationalist instead.


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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I have seen this supposed point made a few times. Itís a shame it holds no water whatsoever.

    You, and others before you have referenced countries that were colonised who then sought independence. Fair enough.

    Scotland entered into a union. Thatís very different.

    Doesnt really bother me, Iíve made my position clear a few times. I have no love of the union and I despise the pettiness of nationalism even more.

    But this nonsensical, facile point youíve made and a few have made before you really has to stop. It is silly and misguidedly wrong, and obviously intentionally.
    The 1707 union and Irelandís 1801 union with GB arenít so very different. Both made by aristocratic elites, in all likelihood against the wishes of the general population.

  4. #153
    For many of those who decisively voted in favour of the Union back in 2014, the positives of being part of the United Kingdom don't simply come down to something as clinical as a cost-benefit analysis. It's about more than than that. It's about identity and a wish not to have a fundamental part of that identity taken away from you by those (ie Scottish nationalists) who seem unable to understand why anyone else might see things differently to them - despite the fact that independence would likely be as big a leap in the dark as Brexit.

  5. #154
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    For many of those who decisively voted in favour of the Union back in 2014, the positives of being part of the United Kingdom don't simply come down to something as clinical as a cost-benefit analysis. It's about more than than that. It's about identity and a wish not to have a fundamental part of that identity taken away from you by those (ie Scottish nationalists) who seem unable to understand why anyone else might see things differently to them - despite the fact that independence would likely be as big a leap in the dark as Brexit.
    "Ah'd need tae get a new avatar".

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    Johnson won't be around for long assuming he's elected.
    I'd give him 18 months.
    With a different government things could get better.
    Sorry to sound optimistic but I wouldn't panic yet. I certainly wouldn't listen to the opportunistic Sturgeon who's a fanatic nationalist hellbent on breaking up the UK.
    But the question is who comes after him? The way the country is going it could be Farage. We've sat through 3 years of Brexit chaos. Not sure how much more I can stomach. I'm not convinced that right wing Tory voters in England will change their priorities any time soon.

  7. #156
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    For many of those who decisively voted in favour of the Union back in 2014, the positives of being part of the United Kingdom don't simply come down to something as clinical as a cost-benefit analysis. It's about more than than that. It's about identity and a wish not to have a fundamental part of that identity taken away from you by those (ie Scottish nationalists) who seem unable to understand why anyone else might see things differently to them - despite the fact that independence would likely be as big a leap in the dark as Brexit.
    Well, well the Union and identity Politics? What are you talking about here that us Scottish Nationalists don't understand?

    As I argue the case for a confident, inclusive, outwardly looking Independent Scotland are you dreaming of the British Empire, World War Two and the UK Government's desire to retain the country's status as a 'world superpower'?

    As the UK slowly drifts out to sea (mis)guided by the ugly face of English Nationalism just what is it that you identify with that I don't understand?

  8. #157
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    For many of those who decisively voted in favour of the Union back in 2014, the positives of being part of the United Kingdom don't simply come down to something as clinical as a cost-benefit analysis. It's about more than than that. It's about identity and a wish not to have a fundamental part of that identity taken away from you by those (ie Scottish nationalists) who seem unable to understand why anyone else might see things differently to them - despite the fact that independence would likely be as big a leap in the dark as Brexit.
    So what are the positives that come from a sense of British identity? Can we look back over British history and say that it's a proud one?

    I'll never understand where this patriotic love of Britishness comes from and what serves as the basis for it.

  9. #158
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The 1707 union and Irelandís 1801 union with GB arenít so very different. Both made by aristocratic elites, in all likelihood against the wishes of the general population.
    Oh I certainly agree with the premise that at any time in history there will be powerful groups with vested interests who seek to influence the politicking of their day. Although in 1707 Iím not sure the general population would have much of an inkling about what the Act Of Union was or meant or how it affected their day-to-day life.

    In the spirit of non-partisanship, I think I referenced this before and will do so again - Iíd heartily recommend the book ĎBritonsí by Linda Colley, which applies an academic approach to how the notion of ĎBritainí and ĎBritishnessí came about, because in itself it is only a few hundred years old.

    Her well-researched work identifies three key elements that shaped thinking from the 17th century through to the beginning of the 19th century, namely war, religion and trade.

    War was the existential threat or perceived threat of invasion and sunbjugation mostly by the French. Religion was the impact of the Reformation, not unlinked to the threat of war with Catholic countries. And trade was the boom that Britain (and it was Britain) entered into, with machinisation, the Industrial Revolution and the British Empire and army and navy providing the capacity and security for massive profits. Itís no coincidence that the coastal west of Great Britain, from Bristol up to Paisley, has no shortage of outstanding 19th century architecture, built from trade profits, whether honest or immoral.

    Anyway, not sure thatís a relevant argument for the union here and now
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  10. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Well, well the Union and identity Politics? What are you talking about here that us Scottish Nationalists don't understand?

    As I argue the case for a confident, inclusive, outwardly looking Independent Scotland are you dreaming of the British Empire, World War Two and the UK Government's desire to retain the country's status as a 'world superpower'?

    As the UK slowly drifts out to sea (mis)guided by the ugly face of English Nationalism just what is it that you identify with that I don't understand?
    I'm dreaming of none of those things, although when it comes to World War Two I was certainly moved by the recent Normandy landings commemoration services and proud that so many Scots were among those from all corners of the United Kingdom to have played their part. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    I find nationalism in all its forms repellent and the perception by Scottish nationalists that theirs is a uniquely positive, optimistic version sticks in the craw when it's so dependent on driving home a perennial 'Scotland as victim' mentality. For Scottish nationalism to succeed the UK must fail and I find the relentless negativity of the SNP rhetoric wearying rather than uplifting. The implied message that anyone who doesn't 'get with the programme' must be in some way lacking in intellect or moral fibre is also insulting.

    Granted, things are bad just now and it's hard to recall when our two main parties were so badly led and lacking in inspiration, but it doesn't automatically follow that independence must be better. Bearing in mind the shambles that Brexit has become, is a degree of caution when it comes to further potential constitutional upheaval really so wrong?

  11. #160
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    In about 4 weeks, Boris Johnson will be PM and Ross Thomson will be Scottish Secretary of State. Then weíll really start to appreciate the Union.


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  12. #161
    First Team Breakthrough Curried's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    We are attractive to wealthy retired people. Or people looking for holiday homes, there is one across the road from the one that has been sold, £650,000 holiday home for a Hong-Kong based person.

  13. #162
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I'm dreaming of none of those things, although when it comes to World War Two I was certainly moved by the recent Normandy landings commemoration services and proud that so many Scots were among those from all corners of the United Kingdom to have played their part. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    I find nationalism in all its forms repellent and the perception by Scottish nationalists that theirs is a uniquely positive, optimistic version sticks in the craw when it's so dependent on driving home a perennial 'Scotland as victim' mentality. For Scottish nationalism to succeed the UK must fail and I find the relentless negativity of the SNP rhetoric wearying rather than uplifting. The implied message that anyone who doesn't 'get with the programme' must be in some way lacking in intellect or moral fibre is also insulting.

    Granted, things are bad just now and it's hard to recall when our two main parties were so badly led and lacking in inspiration, but it doesn't automatically follow that independence must be better. Bearing in mind the shambles that Brexit has become, is a degree of caution when it comes to further potential constitutional upheaval really so wrong?
    Your first paragraph.

    Do you honestly believe, that had Scotland been independent during WW2, that no Scots would have fought the Nazis, alongside many other independent countries?

    You were happy to have, Canadians, Americans, and many other nationalities helping to beat the Nazis.

    I find unionism repellent, and the perception by unionists that the union is uniquely positive, whilst leaving their veterans to fend for themselves on the streets.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  14. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Your first paragraph.

    Do you honestly believe, that had Scotland been independent during WW2, that no Scots would have fought the Nazis, alongside many other independent countries?

    You were happy to have, Canadians, Americans, and many other nationalities helping to beat the Nazis.

    I find unionism repellent, and the perception by unionists that the union is uniquely positive, whilst leaving their veterans to fend for themselves on the streets.
    I'm quite sure Scots would have fought against the Nazis, independent or not, but for anyone's pride in their efforts during World War 2 to be somehow diluted simply because we weren't an independent country is surely taking nationalism to extremes.

    IMHO there's a big difference between stereotypical Rangers-supporting Scottish unionists and folk like myself who simply regard themselves as Scottish AND British and are happy to remain so.

  15. #164
    First Team Breakthrough Curried's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I'm dreaming of none of those things, although when it comes to World War Two I was certainly moved by the recent Normandy landings commemoration services and proud that so many Scots were among those from all corners of the United Kingdom to have played their part. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    I find nationalism in all its forms repellent and the perception by Scottish nationalists that theirs is a uniquely positive, optimistic version sticks in the craw when it's so dependent on driving home a perennial 'Scotland as victim' mentality. For Scottish nationalism to succeed the UK must fail and I find the relentless negativity of the SNP rhetoric wearying rather than uplifting. The implied message that anyone who doesn't 'get with the programme' must be in some way lacking in intellect or moral fibre is also insulting.

    Granted, things are bad just now and it's hard to recall when our two main parties were so badly led and lacking in inspiration, but it doesn't automatically follow that independence must be better. Bearing in mind the shambles that Brexit has become, is a degree of caution when it comes to further potential constitutional upheaval really so wrong?
    Yet you wave a Jack on your avatar.
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  16. #165
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I'm dreaming of none of those things, although when it comes to World War Two I was certainly moved by the recent Normandy landings commemoration services and proud that so many Scots were among those from all corners of the United Kingdom to have played their part. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    I find nationalism in all its forms repellent and the perception by Scottish nationalists that theirs is a uniquely positive, optimistic version sticks in the craw when it's so dependent on driving home a perennial 'Scotland as victim' mentality. For Scottish nationalism to succeed the UK must fail and I find the relentless negativity of the SNP rhetoric wearying rather than uplifting. The implied message that anyone who doesn't 'get with the programme' must be in some way lacking in intellect or moral fibre is also insulting.

    Granted, things are bad just now and it's hard to recall when our two main parties were so badly led and lacking in inspiration, but it doesn't automatically follow that independence must be better. Bearing in mind the shambles that Brexit has become, is a degree of caution when it comes to further potential constitutional upheaval really so wrong?
    I have never heard a Scottish nationalist refer to our version of nationalism as unique. We vigorously 'and rightly' defend ourselves against tired and lazy accusations that our nationalism is based on hatred of any other nation or nations or exceptionalism because for 99.9% of us it isn't no matter how much it suits defenders of the union to infer that it is.

    As for the 'victim mentality' Ö Aye, its all England's fault .. where's the victim mentality going to be when Scotland is independent and we have to take responsibility for our own actions? There's the paradox for you, the movement British nationalists accuse of revelling in a victim mentality and enthusiastically blaming Westminster / the UK / England for all of Scotland's ills exists solely to remove itself from the ability to blame anybody but itself for its decisions and yet according to the folk accusing us of the former we are totally wrong to want the latter Ö some folk are never happy

    For my part the biggest lie in the whole debate is folk who enthusiastically defend the union refusing to identify themselves as British nationalists or nationalistic people and all the while using the word 'nationalist' when referring to us ( Scottish nationalists ) with that unspoken and sometimes spoken inference that our nationalism is no different from Hitler's nationalism or Karadzic's nationalism.

    If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Unless you are a British nationalist of course
    Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 25-06-2019 at 11:55 AM.

  17. #166
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I'm quite sure Scots would have fought against the Nazis, independent or not, but for anyone's pride in their efforts during World War 2 to be somehow diluted simply because we weren't an independent country is surely taking nationalism to extremes.

    IMHO there's a big difference between stereotypical Rangers-supporting Scottish unionists and folk like myself who simply regard themselves as Scottish AND British and are happy to remain so.
    I'm certainly not diluting your pride in the efforts of Scots within the fighting forces which defeated Nazism. I, and my family are proud of their efforts, with family members still lying in the fields of France. Those forces came from the whole world made up of Independent minded men and women, some didn't care a jot about their Britishness, they only wanted to defeat Fascism.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  18. #167
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I'm quite sure Scots would have fought against the Nazis, independent or not, but for anyone's pride in their efforts during World War 2 to be somehow diluted simply because we weren't an independent country is surely taking nationalism to extremes.

    IMHO there's a big difference between stereotypical Rangers-supporting Scottish unionists and folk like myself who simply regard themselves as Scottish AND British and are happy to remain so.
    Nobody is diluting their efforts. However, you appear to be using WW2 as a positive case for the union. As if we would have somehow been less proud had an independent Scotland participated in the war. It's hard to understand where that thinking comes from.

    Saying you're happy to be Scottish AND British is all well and good. But it doesn't add anything of remote substance as to why Scotland should remain in the UK.

  19. #168
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Tin hat on here, but I think a case can be made for the Union in relation to the armed forces.

    My brother is in the Navy - he is a devout Unionist, I am not.

    Defence is his job, and he is convinced that Scottish independence would make defending the UK a greater challenge. It is easier to do with things how they are, and a change would involve a risk and it might be more difficult to defend the coastline of the UK if we had different countries within the UK with different political ideas doing the defending.

    The armed forces already do a lot of good work overseas and their ability to do so might be compromised by independence - the current unity may well be greater than the individual parts.

    Some of us like to think of the British armed forces being about wars of oil and imperialism and unwanted incursions into Ireland, but there are activities to help out with the migration issue in the Med, all sorts of stuff helping out in the Balkans (with Putin up to his nonsense) that we might not be able to play such an active role in with independence.

    This is an unusual point for me to make as a believer in independence but it is the opinion of my brother and I believe it is an opinion that has some merit.
    Last edited by Smartie; 25-06-2019 at 02:14 PM.

  20. #169
    3pts away from home - i'm a happy glory hunter. jonty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Tin hat on here, but I think a case can be made for the Union in relation to the armed forces.

    My brother is in the Navy - he is a devout Unionist, I am not.

    Defence is his job, and he is convinced that Scottish independence would make defencing the UK a greater challenge. It is easier to do with things how they are, and a change would involve a risk and it might be more difficult to defend the coastline of the UK if we had different countries within the UK with different political ideas doing the defending.

    The armed forces already do a lot of good work overseas and their ability to do so might be compromised by independence - the current unity may well be greater than the individual parts.

    Some of us like to think of the British armed forces being about wars of oil and imperialism and unwanted incursions into Ireland, but there are activities to help out with the migration issue in the Med, all sorts of stuff helping out in the Balkans (with Putin up to his nonsense) that we might not be able to play such an active role in with independence.

    This is an unusual point for me to make as a believer in independence but it is the opinion of my brother and I believe that it is an opinion that has some merit.
    Interesting and often overlooked.
    How does this compare to the Brexit argument about a euro-army (even though its nothing of the sort)? The obvious is strength in numbers but the Brexiteers complain about being dragged into conflicts that are euro driven rather than UK driven (which I don't believe is the case) yet Scotland could argue it was dragged into conflicts that were Westminster drive. (and i know, hindsight is a wonderful thing).

    Do the British Army do the good work mentioned above, off their own backs, or in conjunction with other nato/euro allies?

  21. #170
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Tin hat on here, but I think a case can be made for the Union in relation to the armed forces.

    My brother is in the Navy - he is a devout Unionist, I am not.

    Defence is his job, and he is convinced that Scottish independence would make defencing the UK a greater challenge. It is easier to do with things how they are, and a change would involve a risk and it might be more difficult to defend the coastline of the UK if we had different countries within the UK with different political ideas doing the defending.

    The armed forces already do a lot of good work overseas and their ability to do so might be compromised by independence - the current unity may well be greater than the individual parts.

    Some of us like to think of the British armed forces being about wars of oil and imperialism and unwanted incursions into Ireland, but there are activities to help out with the migration issue in the Med, all sorts of stuff helping out in the Balkans (with Putin up to his nonsense) that we might not be able to play such an active role in with independence.

    This is an unusual point for me to make as a believer in independence but it is the opinion of my brother and I believe that it is an opinion that has some merit.
    It has merit until it's pointed out that far larger islands than ours, divided up into many different countries don't appear to have any real issues regarding defence. Most of them just choose to keep their beaks out of international affairs. The forces along with the MOD would love us all to believe that all hell would befall us should Scotland dare to leave this political union. But the reality is quite different. There is nothing to suggest that the British isles would suddenly become an open target, just because Scotland decides to take full control over it's own affairs.

  22. #171
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Tin hat on here, but I think a case can be made for the Union in relation to the armed forces.

    My brother is in the Navy - he is a devout Unionist, I am not.

    Defence is his job, and he is convinced that Scottish independence would make defencing the UK a greater challenge. It is easier to do with things how they are, and a change would involve a risk and it might be more difficult to defend the coastline of the UK if we had different countries within the UK with different political ideas doing the defending.

    The armed forces already do a lot of good work overseas and their ability to do so might be compromised by independence - the current unity may well be greater than the individual parts.

    Some of us like to think of the British armed forces being about wars of oil and imperialism and unwanted incursions into Ireland, but there are activities to help out with the migration issue in the Med, all sorts of stuff helping out in the Balkans (with Putin up to his nonsense) that we might not be able to play such an active role in with independence.

    This is an unusual point for me to make as a believer in independence but it is the opinion of my brother and I believe that it is an opinion that has some merit.
    I used to think a bit like that, not that I was ever in the Armed Forces.

    Then you look around the world and there's joint exercises happening all over the place; pirates in various places, drugs in the Caribbean to name just two. Then there's NATO being a big huge joining of military might and there's ANZAC, still going strong for after 100+ years.

    There's no shortage of collaboration.

  23. #172
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Tin hat on here, but I think a case can be made for the Union in relation to the armed forces.

    My brother is in the Navy - he is a devout Unionist, I am not.

    Defence is his job, and he is convinced that Scottish independence would make defencing the UK a greater challenge. It is easier to do with things how they are, and a change would involve a risk and it might be more difficult to defend the coastline of the UK if we had different countries within the UK with different political ideas doing the defending.

    The armed forces already do a lot of good work overseas and their ability to do so might be compromised by independence - the current unity may well be greater than the individual parts.

    Some of us like to think of the British armed forces being about wars of oil and imperialism and unwanted incursions into Ireland, but there are activities to help out with the migration issue in the Med, all sorts of stuff helping out in the Balkans (with Putin up to his nonsense) that we might not be able to play such an active role in with independence.

    This is an unusual point for me to make as a believer in independence but it is the opinion of my brother and I believe that it is an opinion that has some merit.
    The UK government have decided to leave the Scottish coastline open to incursion, and it takes a while for them to get their frigates up from Devonport/Pompey, so we're not really covered as it is under the UK umbrella. As has been mentioned, the Royal Navy work in concert with Nato these days, and the many exercises with other Independent states continue just off the Scottish coast.

    We'd also take a percentage of the current defence budget into our own hands, and with it, the hardware to boot. This was the expectation as of 2007.

    "The Scottish governmentís independence white paper says that, on a population share, Scotland would be entitled to £7.8 billion of the United Kingdomís £93 billion of defence assets (the 2007 figure). The white paper details what Edinburgh would ask for from each branch of the UK military in negotiations. From the Royal Navy, for instance, it would seek two frigates, four anti-mine boats, two offshore patrol vessels and between four and six patrol boats."

    So their will still be a job for him in the future. Just under a different flag.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  24. #173
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    The UK government have decided to leave the Scottish coastline open to incursion, and it takes a while for them to get their frigates up from Devonport/Pompey, so we're not really covered as it is under the UK umbrella. As has been mentioned, the Royal Navy work in concert with Nato these days, and the many exercises with other Independent states continue just off the Scottish coast.

    We'd also take a percentage of the current defence budget into our own hands, and with it, the hardware to boot. This was the expectation as of 2007.

    "The Scottish governmentís independence white paper says that, on a population share, Scotland would be entitled to £7.8 billion of the United Kingdomís £93 billion of defence assets (the 2007 figure). The white paper details what Edinburgh would ask for from each branch of the UK military in negotiations. From the Royal Navy, for instance, it would seek two frigates, four anti-mine boats, two offshore patrol vessels and between four and six patrol boats."

    So their will still be a job for him in the future. Just under a different flag.


    The recognition that Scotland is a maritime nation and should be defended as such was a big plus in the white paper for me.
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  25. #174
    First Team Breakthrough Curried's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    The recognition that Scotland is a maritime nation and should be defended as such was a big plus in the white paper for me.

    ****er

  26. #175
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curried View Post
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    ****er
    I’m assuming that’s supposed to be funny?
    Last edited by marinello59; 25-06-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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  27. #176
    First Team Breakthrough Curried's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Iím assuming thatís supposed to be funny?
    No..

  28. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Curried View Post
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    ****er
    Wtf?

  29. #178
    First Team Breakthrough Curried's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    wtf?
    mmmmmm

  30. #179
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    I still live in hope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curried View Post
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    No..
    We don’t tolerate personal abuse on here so would you like to withdraw your comment? If you had directed that at anybody else you wouldn’t be posting here again. If you have an issue feel free to PM me and we can try to resolve it.
    Last edited by marinello59; 25-06-2019 at 03:23 PM.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  31. #180
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curried View Post
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    ****er
    Not sure what provoked such a response. But it's not acceptable on here.

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