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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    English league clubs

    Seen this just now.

    They are to interview a member of ethnic minority communities as a matter of course.

    Thoughts?

    https://bbc.in/2EXdU1c


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  3. #2
    Testimonial Due Wakeyhibee's Avatar
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    I understand there is a problem of under representation in this field but I hate this "quota" crap. If the best candidates are from a BAME background, I wouldn't expect a "white" one to be show horned in just to prove equality.

    I do recognise there are prejudices out there when there shouldn't be but should they not have a disabled, LGBT, and/or Muslim/Jewish/Jehovah Witness (etc) candidate too in that case ?

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    The question is whether or not there is a problem with discrimination.

    If there is, whether it's deliberate racism or unconscious bias, it needs to be remedied so that everyone gets a fair chance.

    Clearly the EFL believes that there is a problem and they have decided that positive discrimination may be a remedy, even if it's only at the interview stage.

    I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

    I don't know if there is any under representation of disabled, LGBT, and/or Muslim/Jewish/Jehovah Witness managerial candidates. Somehow I would doubt it.

  5. #4
    First Team Regular Renfrew_Hibby's Avatar
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    Without reading the link, how do you ensure that each vacancy has a candidate from a minority background?

  6. #5
    Testimonial Due Wakeyhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    The question is whether or not there is a problem with discrimination.

    If there is, whether it's deliberate racism or unconscious bias, it needs to be remedied so that everyone gets a fair chance.

    Clearly the EFL believes that there is a problem and they have decided that positive discrimination may be a remedy, even if it's only at the interview stage.

    I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

    I don't know if there is any under representation of disabled, LGBT, and/or Muslim/Jewish/Jehovah Witness managerial candidates. Somehow I would doubt it.
    Agree, if there is a problem something needs to be done, I just doubt forcing the interview process will make any difference to the outcome.

    Maybe recruitment should be reported back to EFL for transparency if it's not now, to highlight where the problem is.

    Regardless it should be best candidate no matter what the background.

  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakeyhibee View Post
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    Agree, if there is a problem something needs to be done, I just doubt forcing the interview process will make any difference to the outcome.

    Maybe recruitment should be reported back to EFL for transparency if it's not now, to highlight where the problem is.

    Regardless it should be best candidate no matter what the background.
    It should be the best candidate, I agree.

    But everyone should have an equal chance.

    I'd go as far as saying that if the objective is to have a more balanced ratio of ethnicity, if there's a choice between a white and a BME candidate, both of equal ability, the latter should be given the nod.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    It should be the best candidate, I agree.

    But everyone should have an equal chance.

    I'd go as far as saying that if the objective is to have a more balanced ratio of ethnicity, if there's a choice between a white and a BME candidate, both of equal ability, the latter should be given the nod.

    NO - a decision on who is the best player/prospect has to be made. Clubs have a responsibility to be as good as they can be. There will always be a disparity in the make up of a team but as long as it is a case of picking the best candidate then there really is no argument. Your suggestion is simply reversing any supposed bias.
    As an aside, I would not want Hibs to sign a player of minority ethnicity just to balance the mix of a squad. PC should not replace common sense. I am 72 and I have never seen UK football squad diversity covered as well as it is now.

  9. #8
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloryhunter View Post
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    NO - a decision on who is the best player/prospect has to be made. Clubs have a responsibility to be as good as they can be. There will always be a disparity in the make up of a team but as long as it is a case of picking the best candidate then there really is no argument. Your suggestion is simply reversing any supposed bias.
    As an aside, I would not want Hibs to sign a player of minority ethnicity just to balance the mix of a squad. PC should not replace common sense. I am 72 and I have never seen UK football squad diversity covered as well as it is now.
    What if both candidates have equal ability and there's nothing to choose between them?

    I actually think that equality is common sense. Treating people fairly is more important than football.
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  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakeyhibee View Post
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    I understand there is a problem of under representation in this field but I hate this "quota" crap. If the best candidates are from a BAME background, I wouldn't expect a "white" one to be show horned in just to prove equality.

    I do recognise there are prejudices out there when there shouldn't be but should they not have a disabled, LGBT, and/or Muslim/Jewish/Jehovah Witness (etc) candidate too in that case ?
    They are covered in the "M" for "minority" part of the acronym.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge;5807458[B
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    ]What if both candidates have equal ability and there's nothing to choose between them?

    [/B]I actually think that equality is common sense. Treating people fairly is more important than football.
    If, by your thinking, we should give a job to the BME guy over a white guy of equal ability/promise then where's the equality for the white guy?
    No, you do the same as you would if they were of similar origins - you would make a judgement call, that's your job. You are not there to promote world peace, you are there to do the best for your club so you select on ability. IMO, as I've previously said, I reckon clubs do a pretty good job already, I don't think any coach/manager would choose (for instance) a white player over a black player because of colour. Their jobs depend on results which come from using the best players they can get. It is the same in any industry, if you don't pick the best applicant then you are doing your company a disservice. I think that's common sense.

    It is not a perfect world and we should never be complacent but I reckon that too many people have a mission in life to look for problems where they don't really exist.
    Last edited by gloryhunter; 08-06-2019 at 06:06 PM.

  12. #11
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    Did I notice two black coaches in the Scottish dugout on Saturday? If so, looks like the sfa are ahead of the game.

  13. #12
    Coaching Staff hfc rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatHead View Post
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    Did I notice two black coaches in the Scottish dugout on Saturday? If so, looks like the sfa are ahead of the game.
    One of them was Clarkeís assistant from Kilmarnock (canít remember his name)

    Donít know who the other person was

  14. #13
    Coaching Staff HoboHarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatHead View Post
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    Did I notice two black coaches in the Scottish dugout on Saturday? If so, looks like the sfa are ahead of the game.
    Probably Steve Clarke that's ahead of the game and not the SFA. That would be a first for them......

  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member Silent Boatman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfc rd View Post
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    One of them was Clarkeís assistant from Kilmarnock (canít remember his name)

    Donít know who the other person was
    Alex Dyer and Steven Reid

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member green day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloryhunter View Post
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    If, by your thinking, we should give a job to the BME guy over a white guy of equal ability/promise then where's the equality for the white guy?
    No, you do the same as you would if they were of similar origins - you would make a judgement call, that's your job. You are not there to promote world peace, you are there to do the best for your club so you select on ability. IMO, as I've previously said, I reckon clubs do a pretty good job already, I don't think any coach/manager would choose (for instance) a white player over a black player because of colour. Their jobs depend on results which come from using the best players they can get. It is the same in any industry, if you don't pick the best applicant then you are doing your company a disservice. I think that's common sense.

    It is not a perfect world and we should never be complacent but I reckon that too many people have a mission in life to look for problems where they don't really exist.
    OK, I understand what you are trying to say - broadly, best candidate gets the job regardless of ethnicity?

    You are correct..................however

    There are a large number of black players in the English leagues, I dont know if it is reflective of societal %ages, but it seems that race is no barrier on the playing field.

    There are a lot of black players leave the game and want to be coaches / managers.

    However in the entire English League there are only 3 black managers, that is a dreadful stat.

    A good example in the article -

    Ex England captain, Sol Campbell, first job he could get? Macclesfield, bottom of the bottom league and just escaped relegation from the football league.

    Another ex England captain - Steven Gerrard, first job he could get? Sevco - crowds of 50000 and a huge budget.

    (appreciate its in Scotland, but if he chose to start his career in England it would be a decent team, maybe Championship level).

    I am not saying that Campbell should be managing the Huns, but its a nailed on fact that Gerrard wanted and got a "big club".

    That is an opportunity not afforded to black players.

    Why is this happening in the 21st century? My presumption is the old farts in the boardroom are still unconsciously (or consciously) racist when it comes to interviews.

    They have had their chance to do the right thing, and the only reason the league feel the need to step in is because the dinosaurs have done nothing.

    p.s. I fully expect some chairman down there to say "but there just isnt the quality of candidate among BAME coaches" - which is the argument people have used to justify their position on race / sex issues for decades.

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member 90+2's Avatar
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    I donít think the reason Gerrard got the huns while Campbell lower league is anything to do with skin colour. If it was anyone else former Liverpool captain or player you may have a point, Gerrard Lampard I think are unique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by green day View Post
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    Ex England captain, Sol Campbell, first job he could get? Macclesfield, bottom of the bottom league and just escaped relegation from the football league.

    Another ex England captain - Steven Gerrard, first job he could get? Sevco - crowds of 50000 and a huge budget.

    I am not saying that Campbell should be managing the Huns, but its a nailed on fact that Gerrard wanted and got a "big club".

    That is an opportunity not afforded to black players.
    Unless your name is John Barnes and your first job is a huge club averaging 60,000.

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member green day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90+2 View Post
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    I donít think the reason Gerrard got the huns while Campbell lower league is anything to do with skin colour. If it was anyone else former Liverpool captain or player you may have a point, Gerrard Lampard I think are unique.
    I didnt say it was due to skin colour, I was using those two as an example to illustrate a wider point.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenlad View Post
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    Unless your name is John Barnes and your first job is a huge club averaging 60,000.
    He did, but one outlier doesnt really disprove the facts relating to numbers of BAME managers !

    Equivalent to people stating sexism or glass ceilings dont exist because the boot Thatcher was PM, imo.

  20. #19
    First Team Regular WeAreHibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    What if both candidates have equal ability and there's nothing to choose between them?

    Rock, Paper, Scissors 😉

  21. #20
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    The outstanding job that both Kevin Harper and Sol Campbell did with the lowly jobs they managed to get certainly added fuel to the fire.

    That they could do so well in such difficult circumstances makes it harder to argue that they weren't worthy of opportunities higher up the ladder.

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green day View Post
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    OK, I understand what you are trying to say - broadly, best candidate gets the job regardless of ethnicity?

    You are correct..................however

    There are a large number of black players in the English leagues, I dont know if it is reflective of societal %ages, but it seems that race is no barrier on the playing field.

    There are a lot of black players leave the game and want to be coaches / managers.

    However in the entire English League there are only 3 black managers, that is a dreadful stat.

    A good example in the article -

    Ex England captain, Sol Campbell, first job he could get? Macclesfield, bottom of the bottom league and just escaped relegation from the football league.

    Another ex England captain - Steven Gerrard, first job he could get? Sevco - crowds of 50000 and a huge budget.

    (appreciate its in Scotland, but if he chose to start his career in England it would be a decent team, maybe Championship level).

    I am not saying that Campbell should be managing the Huns, but its a nailed on fact that Gerrard wanted and got a "big club".

    That is an opportunity not afforded to black players.

    Why is this happening in the 21st century? My presumption is the old farts in the boardroom are still unconsciously (or consciously) racist when it comes to interviews.

    They have had their chance to do the right thing, and the only reason the league feel the need to step in is because the dinosaurs have done nothing.

    p.s. I fully expect some chairman down there to say "but there just isnt the quality of candidate among BAME coaches" - which is the argument people have used to justify their position on race / sex issues for decades.
    3% of the english population is black whereas 4.1% of the managers in the EFL are black -if itís true there are 3 black managers.

    So in they terms they are represented pretty well no?

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member green day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    3% of the english population is black whereas 4.1% of the managers in the EFL are black -if itís true there are 3 black managers.

    So in they terms they are represented pretty well no?
    Versus the general population that seems sound...............however since I posted that I looked up and the stat I saw was that in English football, BAME players make up 33% of the players.

    As most if not all managers are ex players, you can see the issue.

    This is a year old, but makes good reading on the subject - https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a8379111.html

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