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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    When have the police ever got involved in this. It is up to football authorities to deal with behaviour in football grounds and clubs to abide with those rules. If football authorities dont put in place a suitable structure then government should force them to do so.
    Since when did the law of the land not apply inside football grounds?


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  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermit Crab View Post
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    Unlikely.
    If the team lost points it would stop overnight. The fans would enforce it.

    J

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    He's the antithesis of progress for our game, but I agree with him here.

    Say it's brought in, and we're at the last game of the season - Celtc are chasing 10 in a row, are level on points with Rangers, and a win secures Celtc the title. The majority of Rangers fans will be rightly watching their own team, but let's say a small band of them decide to provide a bit of insurance. They don Celtc tops for the day, go to wherever Celtc are playing their game and behave like complete dicks - invading the pitch, assaulting players, throwing smoke bombs, screaming all types of abuse...under strict liability, that could result in points deductions and impact the integrity of the league.

    It's too easy to manipulate and doesn't deal with the root problem. Quite what the solution is, I don't know, but strict liability is a system to be weaponised.
    Sell tickets to pointed members of the Celtic travel club only.

    J

  5. #34
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    Why not introduce it for a trial season then see if it works

  6. #35
    Testimonial Due Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_M View Post
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    Dortmund had a section of their ground closed a couple of years back because the Ultras that inhabit part of that section attacked innocent men, women and children before a game against RB Leipzig. The club were also fined 100k Euros

    Story Here

    It was considered heavy handed by many but sent out a very powerful message that such behaviour won't be tolerated.

    I wish our footballing authorities had the balls do do something like that.
    Does it work though? The story you reference is from 2017. For all the posturing there were still similar scenes at this year's derby with Schalke. Fans like this only care about themselves and their roles within their group. They aren't stopping to worry about the effect on the club and would likely play the victim over sanctions. Claiming they only add to the atmosphere. Claiming the sanctions are heavy handed. Pointing fingers and indulging in a bit of whataboutery (seem familiar?).

    Folk seem to think strict liability will be used as some sort of crusade against sectarianism. That Rangers and Celtic would be on the sharp end of it. I am almost certain that incidents from hibs, hearts, and Aberdeen fans will be overblown. That one flare will outweigh a thousand singers. We will be made to look bad and they will get nothing like the sanctions people are hoping for.

    Putting the old firm aside and outlining what strict liability means for hibs. I don't want our club to be defined by the one or two morons that follow us. The majority being affected by a high profile minority. The club paying trumped up fines better spent on playing staff. Voting for strict liability, in our case, isnt striking a blow against sectarianism. It would be like turkies voting for Christmas.

  7. #36
    Ultimate Slaver Keith_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antifa Hibs View Post
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    2 things. When have we seen innocent men, woman and children attacked before or after a game in this country? Also the fact Frankfurt and Hamburg have had stand closures around the same time as this kinda proves its not really a deterrent?

    If a group of hardcore ultras/fanatics/hooligans physically attack a group of innocent opposing supporters they should be put through the courts, not closing a wee section of their stand.

    Let's be honest the worst thing to happen in Scotland on a weekly basis is a few dodgy chants. If strict liability was brought in there is no chance we're seeing fines and ground closures for singing BJK, up the ra/uda or the billy boys.

    How do you know that it didn't have an effect on the behavour of that segment of their support?

    For one thing, they really wern't popular with other Dortmund Fans because of this, and certainly not with the club.

    When Rangers were fined by UEFA, they clamped down on sectarian singing, something the current owners show no interest in.

    I'm not saying violence is the same as sectarianisn. The people engaging in either need to be dealt with, though, and if their club needs a push to do that, then so be it.
    Last edited by Keith_M; 05-06-2019 at 04:51 PM.

  8. #37
    First Team Breakthrough Chorley Hibee's Avatar
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    Doncaster, as usual, offering us problems rather than solutions.

    The first sign of a lack of leadership.

  9. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
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    Does it work though? The story you reference is from 2017. For all the posturing there were still similar scenes at this year's derby with Schalke. Fans like this only care about themselves and their roles within their group. They aren't stopping to worry about the effect on the club and would likely play the victim over sanctions. Claiming they only add to the atmosphere. Claiming the sanctions are heavy handed. Pointing fingers and indulging in a bit of whataboutery (seem familiar?).

    Folk seem to think strict liability will be used as some sort of crusade against sectarianism. That Rangers and Celtic would be on the sharp end of it. I am almost certain that incidents from hibs, hearts, and Aberdeen fans will be overblown. That one flare will outweigh a thousand singers. We will be made to look bad and they will get nothing like the sanctions people are hoping for.

    Putting the old firm aside and outlining what strict liability means for hibs. I don't want our club to be defined by the one or two morons that follow us. The majority being affected by a high profile minority. The club paying trumped up fines better spent on playing staff. Voting for strict liability, in our case, isnt striking a blow against sectarianism. It would be like turkies voting for Christmas.
    This all day long. If any law is broken the police should deal with it. Now like insurance policies, if used the charge goes up, but punishing the club for the actions of a minority is wrong

  10. #39
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    Strict liability or a diluted form as they have in England would be better than what we have in Scotland just now which is anarchy

    It would certainly help tackle the problem of sectarianism which once again appears to be getting brushed under the carpet by the SFA

    It will be back in all its glory in the new season

    Hibs Celtic and The Rangers have all suffered recently under UEFAs Strict Liability regulations in the form of fines and as others have pointed out it did seem to have an affect on The Rangers songbook albeit for a brief spell

  11. #40
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    Well there goes any attempt to stop mainly Rangers signing sectarian songs.
    Are there a lot of deaf rangers supporters? 😉
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS View Post
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    Strict liability or a diluted form as they have in England would be better than what we have in Scotland just now which is anarchy

    It would certainly help tackle the problem of sectarianism which once again appears to be getting brushed under the carpet by the SFA

    It will be back in all its glory in the new season

    Hibs Celtic and The Rangers have all suffered recently under UEFAs Strict Liability regulations in the form of fines and as others have pointed out it did seem to have an affect on The Rangers songbook albeit for a brief spell
    The fine we received didn't stop supporters using flares this season.

  13. #42
    To me it's about whether those in charge simply want to stop being embarrassed by chants at football matches or are serious about rooting out sectarianism in Scottish society. The football gives the songs a platform for a good anti-establishment airing for sure and I'm not sure it's ever possible or desirable to completely separate politics from football, but on that same note if we accept that what sectarianism exists in Scottish football is contorted onto the Old Firm then we have to face up to the stone cold fact that doing what's in our power - between Holyrood and Hampden - would be a hell of a first step in solving a wider societal problem. But it needs to be understood on those terms - legislation can't change bigots, but it can nudge society in the right direction over generations.

    As for those who play the free speech card on lyrical content, free speech is a right that comes with it the responsibility to engage with disagreement, and if more billy boy/up the ra types understood that and made the effort to do so then maybe they'd realise that there's a lot more going on - not to draw false equivalences or lazy conclusions like - my whole point is that the lazy stereotypes underpinning sectarianism and the game as something exclusive to either of them should be challenged in the media and in society if we want to get anywhere with actually making the country more tolerant.

    Though in truth I suspect the SFA and the MSPs are playing a totally different game right now.

  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatHead View Post
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    The fine we received didn't stop supporters using flares this season.
    Agree

    I was talking about Der Hun didnít stop them for long either

  15. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_M View Post
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    How do you know that it didn't have an effect on the behavour of that segment of their support?

    For one thing, they really wern't popular with other Dortmund Fans because of this, and certainly not with the club.

    When Rangers were fined by UEFA, they clamped down on sectarian singing, something the current owners show no interest in.

    I'm not saying violence is the same as sectarianisn. The people engaging in either need to be dealt with, though, and if their club needs a push to do that, then so be it.
    The stadium closure was only for incidents that happened inside the stadium, mostly the banners, laser pen's and pints being launched onto the pitch.

    If stadium closures were such a deterrent would the Dortmund ultras not look back to when Eintracht recieved a couple of stand closures? Hamburg rioted when they got relegated and risked a stand closure, they know the consequences but still didn't stop them behaving in such away it needed riot police on the pitch for 20 minutes while the game got stopped.

    Regarding the huns and their singing - strict liability might stop 1 or 2 of the blatant anti-catholic dittys in the stands but they can still sing them on the buses, in the clubs and pubs and in the streets etc. All you're doing then is sweeping the problem under the carpet by not allowing it to be broadcast on SS or BT every second week.

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member PeeKay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
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    Folk seem to think strict liability will be used as some sort of crusade against sectarianism. That Rangers and Celtic would be on the sharp end of it. I am almost certain that incidents from hibs, hearts, and Aberdeen fans will be overblown. That one flare will outweigh a thousand singers. We will be made to look bad and they will get nothing like the sanctions people are hoping for..
    Totally agree. Look at the mess the authorities have made of the disciplinary process this year. Does anyone believe that Scottish football's regulatory bodies are capable of producing a robust, even-handed, and transparent system to underpin strict liability?

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