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Thread: Scottish Greens

  1. #1

    Scottish Greens

    Apparently they don't have a thread.

    I think Andy Wightman has been one of the Scottish Parliament's best performers in recent years and this is another example of that:

    https://twitter.com/andywightman/sta...34879082504192

    These eyesores have been getting worse and worse over the last few years, please do write to your MSP if you can spare the time.

    And, btw, whatever my views on Indy (can you guess? ) I think it's a disgrace the SNP previously voted against this.


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    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    I really like some of the policies from the greens. Of all the parties they represent how I feel the country should be run. My problem is with their environmental policies, they go too far too quickly for me. And thatís basically their reason for existing. I donít disagree with their end goal, I just think that thereís better ways to get to that goal.

    United we stand here....

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    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I really like some of the policies from the greens. Of all the parties they represent how I feel the country should be run. My problem is with their environmental policies, they go too far too quickly for me. And thatís basically their reason for existing. I donít disagree with their end goal, I just think that thereís better ways to get to that goal.
    Show me a political party that the typical voter agrees with all their policies, it just doesn't exist, except maybe for lgnsh

    I agree that, as a Green voter, not all of the policies and aims fit perfectly with me. I moved from voting SNP to Green in 2014 because of the more,IMHO, reasoned approach on a number of things not least independence. As an ecologist I sometimes wonder how it took me so long.

    As JMS said about the hill tracks they are more prominent now than they were, part of this, at least for some that are visible from the A9 is because they were first created for the new power line and pylons running from Beauly to Denny, and they were supposed to be restored. Instead the estates applied for permission to retain them for access to the high hills for grouse shooting and deer stalking. These should have been reduced to single track but weren't.

    Green policies on things like renewables and transport all make a lot of sense. I know I will benefit from the dualling of the A9, eventually, but it won't reduce the number of vehicles and emmissions. I have an old house, built around 1800 or earlier and it is a bugger to heat, I used to have storage heaters but now have electric underfloor heating and wood burning stoves, my electricity provider is 100% renewables, the wood for the stoves comes from my own garden by felling trees and coppicing others so it is fully sustainable. I would love to have solar panels but the removal of incentives and the orientation of the house makes it not feasible.

    Now to LB's point about the environmental policies, stopping the oil and gas industries would be good, but it needs to be done in a steady phased manner, firstly stopping the exploration licences, then allowing the existing extraction to run out naturally. How long that would take would allow further investment in renewables until Scotland becomes self sufficient and a net exporter in renewable energy.

    How do we feel about the 20mph speed limits? I visit Edinburgh fairly often and can't understand some of them, Ferry Road for example, but residential areas should be 20mph. I see there's plans for cycle lanes separated from traffic all the way from George Street to the Meadows. What is that going to do to traffic congestion along the route? I feel that might be counter productive on air quality in the Old Town.

    I have just scratched the surface so feel free to add other thoughts. Happy to have a sensible conversation, jut not about hypothetical mortgages.
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

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    I like some of their policies but they do still seem hell bent on high and higher taxation. A 60% top rate is just daft and seems to suggest they have never heard of the Laffer Curve.

    Anyway one proposal I do like is the removal of LBTT. The punitive cost of moving house has steadily reduced sales volumes and as ever when supply is restricted (artificially here by high taxation) then it doesnít take a genius to work out that prices may be inflated accordingly. This policy to me is a very sensible one that would allow higher volume of housing to be available for sale and thus go some way to fixing the rather broken housing market.

  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Show me a political party that the typical voter agrees with all their policies, it just doesn't exist, except maybe for lgnsh

    I agree that, as a Green voter, not all of the policies and aims fit perfectly with me. I moved from voting SNP to Green in 2014 because of the more,IMHO, reasoned approach on a number of things not least independence. As an ecologist I sometimes wonder how it took me so long.

    As JMS said about the hill tracks they are more prominent now than they were, part of this, at least for some that are visible from the A9 is because they were first created for the new power line and pylons running from Beauly to Denny, and they were supposed to be restored. Instead the estates applied for permission to retain them for access to the high hills for grouse shooting and deer stalking. These should have been reduced to single track but weren't.

    Green policies on things like renewables and transport all make a lot of sense. I know I will benefit from the dualling of the A9, eventually, but it won't reduce the number of vehicles and emmissions. I have an old house, built around 1800 or earlier and it is a bugger to heat, I used to have storage heaters but now have electric underfloor heating and wood burning stoves, my electricity provider is 100% renewables, the wood for the stoves comes from my own garden by felling trees and coppicing others so it is fully sustainable. I would love to have solar panels but the removal of incentives and the orientation of the house makes it not feasible.

    Now to LB's point about the environmental policies, stopping the oil and gas industries would be good, but it needs to be done in a steady phased manner, firstly stopping the exploration licences, then allowing the existing extraction to run out naturally. How long that would take would allow further investment in renewables until Scotland becomes self sufficient and a net exporter in renewable energy.

    How do we feel about the 20mph speed limits? I visit Edinburgh fairly often and can't understand some of them, Ferry Road for example, but residential areas should be 20mph. I see there's plans for cycle lanes separated from traffic all the way from George Street to the Meadows. What is that going to do to traffic congestion along the route? I feel that might be counter productive on air quality in the Old Town.

    I have just scratched the surface so feel free to add other thoughts. Happy to have a sensible conversation, jut not about hypothetical mortgages.
    I firmly believe that technology is the answer to environmental issues. Renewable energy, electric cars or hydrogen powered cars. If governments legislated that petrol powered cars canít be sold after a certain date the manufacturers would quickly accelerate the development of new models. I hate how local councils answer to everything is to close roads and try and force people to use public transport. I donít want to use the bus or the tram.

    United we stand here....

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I firmly believe that technology is the answer to environmental issues. Renewable energy, electric cars or hydrogen powered cars. If governments legislated that petrol powered cars canít be sold after a certain date the manufacturers would quickly accelerate the development of new models. I hate how local councils answer to everything is to close roads and try and force people to use public transport. I donít want to use the bus or the tram.
    Cars will be electric soon no matter what...Tesla changed the game and the VW emissions scandal changed the timeline.

    Untold billions pouring into electric cars and the battery factories and supply chains needed to support the huge number of cars to be produced but very soon weíll see a real step change in terms of offerings from the big players.

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    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I hate how local councils answer to everything is to close roads and try and force people to use public transport. I donít want to use the bus or the tram.
    Of course you don't. You also don't want to be constantly stuck in high levels of traffic due to their being far too many vehicles on the road and them being slowed down due to non stop road repairs due to their being far too many vehicles on the road.

    If people could balance out their use of private and public transport, then things wouldn't be nearly as bad. Less stress on the roads and better for the environment overall.

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    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I firmly believe that technology is the answer to environmental issues. Renewable energy, electric cars or hydrogen powered cars. If governments legislated that petrol powered cars canít be sold after a certain date the manufacturers would quickly accelerate the development of new models. I hate how local councils answer to everything is to close roads and try and force people to use public transport. I donít want to use the bus or the tram.
    You are right.

    If you accept resources are finite, we as humanity need to get with the programme.

    We have a massive nuclear reactor in the sky that we all revolve around.

    Colossal wind, wave, tidal and biomass potential.

    Battery technology will be this Century's leap forward. Fleets of networked cars. No need to drive, just programme in your destination and your car will take you there at a rapid speed.

    We just have to take that step.

    J

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    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    When I changed jobs just over a year ago I drove to work, after a couple of weeks I was so fed up of the traffic... My journey is from west side of town to Easter road,... I started going by bus... Since then, we decided to get rid of our 2nd car as it was just sitting there week after week, normally I get the bus as its almost door to door, if I sleep in, I go get the tram and walk over... Once that tram goes right down leith walk there's a fair few folk I know will be using it as their main mode of transport, should mean less cars/and fuel etc etc

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    I like some of their policies but they do still seem hell bent on high and higher taxation. A 60% top rate is just daft and seems to suggest they have never heard of the Laffer Curve.

    Anyway one proposal I do like is the removal of LBTT. The punitive cost of moving house has steadily reduced sales volumes and as ever when supply is restricted (artificially here by high taxation) then it doesnít take a genius to work out that prices may be inflated accordingly. This policy to me is a very sensible one that would allow higher volume of housing to be available for sale and thus go some way to fixing the rather broken housing market.
    I agree with you on the removal of LBTT, although worth mentioning sales volumes for first 3 months of this year were the highest since the financial crash so it isn't massively restricting supply.

    I am in favour of the additional dwelling supplement to disincentivise second home ownership given demand outstrips supply.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Show me a political party that the typical voter agrees with all their policies, it just doesn't exist, except maybe for lgnsh

    I agree that, as a Green voter, not all of the policies and aims fit perfectly with me. I moved from voting SNP to Green in 2014 because of the more,IMHO, reasoned approach on a number of things not least independence. As an ecologist I sometimes wonder how it took me so long.

    As JMS said about the hill tracks they are more prominent now than they were, part of this, at least for some that are visible from the A9 is because they were first created for the new power line and pylons running from Beauly to Denny, and they were supposed to be restored. Instead the estates applied for permission to retain them for access to the high hills for grouse shooting and deer stalking. These should have been reduced to single track but weren't.

    Green policies on things like renewables and transport all make a lot of sense. I know I will benefit from the dualling of the A9, eventually, but it won't reduce the number of vehicles and emmissions. I have an old house, built around 1800 or earlier and it is a bugger to heat, I used to have storage heaters but now have electric underfloor heating and wood burning stoves, my electricity provider is 100% renewables, the wood for the stoves comes from my own garden by felling trees and coppicing others so it is fully sustainable. I would love to have solar panels but the removal of incentives and the orientation of the house makes it not feasible.

    Now to LB's point about the environmental policies, stopping the oil and gas industries would be good, but it needs to be done in a steady phased manner, firstly stopping the exploration licences, then allowing the existing extraction to run out naturally. How long that would take would allow further investment in renewables until Scotland becomes self sufficient and a net exporter in renewable energy.

    How do we feel about the 20mph speed limits? I visit Edinburgh fairly often and can't understand some of them, Ferry Road for example, but residential areas should be 20mph. I see there's plans for cycle lanes separated from traffic all the way from George Street to the Meadows. What is that going to do to traffic congestion along the route? I feel that might be counter productive on air quality in the Old Town.

    I have just scratched the surface so feel free to add other thoughts. Happy to have a sensible conversation, jut not about hypothetical mortgages.


    Or for Golden Fleece. The Perthshire Nimby.

  13. #12
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Or for Golden Fleece. The Perthshire Nimby.
    Perthshire nimby? how does that come about? Did you even bother to read my post? The first paragraph tells you that I am nothing like you and your blind faith in the Labour Party.

    If you look at my posts on the various political threads you will see I am supportive of SOME Green and SNP policies, but also critical of others. I have yet to see you critisise Labour, either the Uk version or the Scottish entity, it is all wonderful for you in the Labour Party that is going backwards at a great rate of knots.

    Your posting on the thread about why people vote for the Conservative Party is largely the reason that thread degenerated into the same as the other threads. It is boring.

    Now, to get back to the Greens, I see some things in the news todat that couldbe posted on the Good News thread.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48473259

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...lands-48473808
    Last edited by Moulin Yarns; 01-06-2019 at 11:17 AM.

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    I joined the SGP the day after the referendum in 2014. I had never been a member of a political party before, but the referendum had engaged me in politics like never before and I wanted to continue my involvement. The Greens were the most natural fit for me; although I didnít agree with all their policies (and still donít).

    Iíve always had an awareness of the damage that humans are doing to the environment, but that has increased greatly over the last couple of years. It is an absolute necessity now for us and future generations that we attempt to fix some of it. In Scotland weíre making good progress with clean energy and Iím optimistic that as people weíre all waking up to the environmental crisis and are in a position to do something about it.

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    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
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    I joined the SGP the day after the referendum in 2014. I had never been a member of a political party before, but the referendum had engaged me in politics like never before and I wanted to continue my involvement. The Greens were the most natural fit for me; although I didnít agree with all their policies (and still donít).

    Iíve always had an awareness of the damage that humans are doing to the environment, but that has increased greatly over the last couple of years. It is an absolute necessity now for us and future generations that we attempt to fix some of it. In Scotland weíre making good progress with clean energy and Iím optimistic that as people weíre all waking up to the environmental crisis and are in a position to do something about it.
    This. 👍
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

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    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    To me the Greens are like the Libdems but with a reason for existence.

    They have a lot of good and reasonable ideas and policies then they muck it up by having a really stupid one. The latest being a blanket 20mph in town.
    Space to let

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    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    To me the Greens are like the Libdems but with a reason for existence.

    They have a lot of good and reasonable ideas and policies then they muck it up by having a really stupid one. The latest being a blanket 20mph in town.
    The current blanket speed limit in towns and cities is 30mph,it's within the power of each local authority to change those to 40mph, 20mph, or even 15mph. The proposed 20mph limit is a starting point to replace the 30mph and then each local authority can then fix higher limits where they see fit.

    I agree some in Edinburgh are senseless, ferry road for example.
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

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    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    The current blanket speed limit in towns and cities is 30mph,it's within the power of each local authority to change those to 40mph, 20mph, or even 15mph. The proposed 20mph limit is a starting point to replace the 30mph and then each local authority can then fix higher limits where they see fit.

    I agree some in Edinburgh are senseless, ferry road for example.
    Why replace it at all when, as you point out, the local authorities already have the power to reduce to 20 as they see fit?

    The argument seems to be based on the dubious 'of course it's safter, particularly for kids, isn't that obvious?'

    Well, for me, if it was that obvious they'd be quoting actual figures based on Edinburgh data. The fact no-one is makes me think the obvious is somewhat less than expected.

    I don't own a car.
    Space to let

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Why replace it at all when, as you point out, the local authorities already have the power to reduce to 20 as they see fit?

    The argument seems to be based on the dubious 'of course it's safter, particularly for kids, isn't that obvious?'

    Well, for me, if it was that obvious they'd be quoting actual figures based on Edinburgh data. The fact no-one is makes me think the obvious is somewhat less than expected.

    I don't own a car.
    A parliamentary Bill will unify the speed limits across the country, in other words, drivers would be less confused if it was applied across the country and only where signs indicate otherwise the speed would be 20mph in urban areas.

    Evidence given to parliament https://www.parliament.scot/S5_Rural/Research_evidence_20mph_bILL.pdf



    TRL research shows that, on urban streets in the UK, a 1mphreduction in vehicle speeds typically produces a 5% reduction incollisions
    ēThe profile of car speeds on roads with a 20mph speed limit and roadswith a 30mph limit are quite different, e.g. 49% of cars using roadswith a 20mph speed limit in free flow conditions travel at 24mph orless, compared with 12% of cars using roads with a 30mph limit.
    ēThe imposition of 20mph speed limits on roads previously subject to a30mph limit typically produces a small, but statistically significant,reduction in average (both mean and median) vehicle speeds.
    ēCity-wide 20mph speed limits generally reduce road collisioncasualties, although some smaller schemes have not reducedcasualty numbers.
    ēThe imposition of 20mph speed limits on roads previously subject to a30mph limit can produce small increases in modal share for walkingand cycling.
    ēThe air pollution impacts of 20mph speed limits are mixed, and soshould not be assumed to be conclusively positive or negative.
    ē20mph speed limits generally have no significant impact on journeytimes or traffic congestion.
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

  20. #19
    A pedant writes:

    I automatically distrust the content of reports which are written in improper grammar. If the authors can't be bothered to get that right, what else are they getting wrong in their presentation? I admit this distrust may not be 100% rational.

    ēThe profile of car speeds on roads with a 20mph speed limit and roadswith a 30mph limit are quite different, e.g. 49% of cars using roadswith a 20mph speed limit in free flow conditions travel at 24mph orless, compared with 12% of cars using roads with a 30mph limit.

  21. #20
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    A parliamentary Bill will unify the speed limits across the country, in other words, drivers would be less confused if it was applied across the country and only where signs indicate otherwise the speed would be 20mph in urban areas.

    Evidence given to parliament https://www.parliament.scot/S5_Rural/Research_evidence_20mph_bILL.pdf
    Fair enough.

    I would say no-one was confused when everything was 30! Well other than my wife who was done for speeding in a 30 zone she was convinced was 40! Personally with that excuse I'd have also charged her with driving without due care and attention lol.

    I suspect these numbers quoted are taken from a road laboratory where conditions are controlled and crash test dummies examined to death in ultra high slow motion.

    Where are the before and after numbers for what's happened in real time in Edinburgh?

    High profile examples in Edinburgh of folk/cyclists being killed or injured have only happened on streets that were already 20mph, like Princes Street!

    I've not seen anything in the media where it's been said 'as a result of the speed reductions x fewer people have been killed or injured, there have been x fewer road traffic accidents.

    I'm damn sure if such statistics existed the Greens and others would be shouting them from the rooftops!

    And before anyone pops up and says there's been no reduction because everyone, including the police, are ignoring the lower limit, I'd say that's not the kind of evidence I'd be looking for to justify rolling out a failed local initiative nationally!
    Space to let

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Fair enough.

    I would say no-one was confused when everything was 30! Well other than my wife who was done for speeding in a 30 zone she was convinced was 40! Personally with that excuse I'd have also charged her with driving without due care and attention lol.

    I suspect these numbers quoted are taken from a road laboratory where conditions are controlled and crash test dummies examined to death in ultra high slow motion.

    Where are the before and after numbers for what's happened in real time in Edinburgh?

    High profile examples in Edinburgh of folk/cyclists being killed or injured have only happened on streets that were already 20mph, like Princes Street!

    I've not seen anything in the media where it's been said 'as a result of the speed reductions x fewer people have been killed or injured, there have been x fewer road traffic accidents.

    I'm damn sure if such statistics existed the Greens and others would be shouting them from the rooftops!

    And before anyone pops up and says there's been no reduction because everyone, including the police, are ignoring the lower limit, I'd say that's not the kind of evidence I'd be looking for to justify rolling out a failed local initiative nationally!
    Surveys of 5 real towns.

    Princes Street cycle accidents are more because of the tram track.

    Edit : read the report.

    Average speed in 30 zone is 36 and in 20 zone it's 24. Go figure.
    Last edited by Moulin Yarns; 01-06-2019 at 04:32 PM.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Average speed in 30 zone is 36 and in 20 zone it's 24. Go figure.
    People drive at exactly 20% above the limit?
    So if you want people to drive at 20mph, make the speed limit 16.7 mph?

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    People drive at exactly 20% above the limit?
    So if you want people to drive at 20mph, make the speed limit 16.7 mph?
    Have you noticed the active speed signs as you enter 30mph zones that tell you your actual speed? I can be driving at 28mph according to the car but the sign tells me that my speed is 26mph.
    They tried to bury us, they didn't realise we were seeds.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Have you noticed the active speed signs as you enter 30mph zones that tell you your actual speed? I can be driving at 28mph according to the car but the sign tells me that my speed is 26mph.
    Speedometers in cars are always set to overread, aren't they? To help keep drivers safe from the law.

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Surveys of 5 real towns.

    Princes Street cycle accidents are more because of the tram track.

    Edit : read the report.

    Average speed in 30 zone is 36 and in 20 zone it's 24. Go figure.
    No idea where those stats come from as absolutely zero chance they are from a free flowing 20mph road in Edinburgh. The 20mph is simply ignored by the vast vast majority of drivers.

    Itís ignored because is stupidly slow for a car journey.

    20mph zones should be in place only where they need to be, around schools etc, and the removal of them for the now ignored blanket speed limit seems to have made those areas more dangerous that safer, in my completely unscientific personal observation!

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Speedometers in cars are always set to overread, aren't they? To help keep drivers safe from the law.
    They do over read, but that's to protect the manufacturer rather than the driver.

    e.g. If Ford made speedometers which said 30, but the real speed was 36, they'd get sued as soon as someone who was fined for speeding realised what had happened.

    Plus the size of wheels, thickness of tyres and inflation all change speedometer readings.

  28. #27
    I was reading their membership numbers are down by a third since 2014 and they elected their new leaders in a turnout of 12.5%, only 801 people could be bothered to vote.

    I wonder if the people complaining about Boris being elected undemocratically have similar concerns that someone like Patrick Harvie has the power he has in the Scot Parliament propping up the SNP when less than a thousand people voted for him to be the leader of his party. Probably not.

    Green parties across Europe seem to be flying, yet the Scottish Greens.....
    Last edited by James310; 04-08-2019 at 06:02 PM.

  29. #28
    I don't think they actually can demand anything they want, I remember they were demanding 1 billion in a previous budget some years ago (can't remember what for) when Swinney needed votes to pass a budget and in the end he gave them a lot less than originally agreed and made compromises with Labour to get the budget passed.

    I think it's a characteristic in many parliaments around Europe that deals are made with minor parties to pass budgets or pieces of legislation, and the SNP have done deals with all parties to pass budgets since 2007.

    Regarding the Greens I was surprised to see their membership fall and the numbers who voted in the leadership election, for the Scottish elections at least they seemed to be doing ok in the polls.

  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    I was reading their membership numbers are down by a third since 2014 and they elected their new leaders in a turnout of 12.5%, only 801 people could be bothered to vote.

    I wonder if the people complaining about Boris being elected undemocratically have similar concerns that someone like Patrick Harvie has the power he has in the Scot Parliament propping up the SNP when less than a thousand people voted for him to be the leader of his party. Probably not.

    Green parties across Europe seem to be flying, yet the Scottish Greens.....
    The Scottish parliament is designed so that there has to be cross party consensus and no one party holds all the power. So seems as though it's working the way it was intended to me.

    Sounds like you just want another whinge about someone who you don't agree with and since your usual threads haven't had much traction in the last day or so you've dug this one up

    The world is a great place, say something positive for a change

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    The Scottish parliament is designed so that there has to be cross party consensus and no one party holds all the power. So seems as though it's working the way it was intended to me.

    Sounds like you just want another whinge about someone who you don't agree with and since your usual threads haven't had much traction in the last day or so you've dug this one up

    The world is a great place, say something positive for a change
    What post was that then in the last day or so?

    Just an observation that we have someone that holds a considerable bit of power in Scotland elected as leader of their party with a few hundred votes. Not exactly the sign of a party fully engaged with it's membership is it.

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