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  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?
    Because they'd be cutting of their nose to spite their face.

    If you honestly think this would be the case, then why are they in no great rush to pull up a wall between the Republic and Northern Ireland?


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  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?
    Possibly they may want to protect their currency and be seen to be a country that can be traded with?

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    Possibly they may want to protect their currency and be seen to be a country that can be traded with?

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    Eh?

  5. #64
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    Why do you ask a question if you already know your preferred answer?

    Is it just because you want to argue with folk?

    As people live longer, they rely more and more on the NHS regardless of whether they're working or not.

    However, retirement age has increased relatively recently and most of the folk affected haven't reached state pension age yet.

    You also have to take account of the fact that pensions are being paid for longer too.

    Unemployment in 1948 was about 1% and disability benefits were non existent.

    Taxation on everyone was higher. I was paying 33% when I started work as a junior in an office. Those days are gone.

    There's no one simple answer.
    Because even when you have your own prefered answer to a question, you still want to hear other peoples answers. Is that ok?

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Eh?
    Just reread my post and your original one... And.... Eh?

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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Because they'd be cutting of their nose to spite their face.

    If you honestly think this would be the case, then why are they in no great rush to pull up a wall between the Republic and Northern Ireland?
    England's a 'big' country mate. It doesn't need Scotland but the UK is an entity that punches above its weight. Little Scotland would soon find its place, not a place that you somehow imagine it to be.

    No disrespect Fife because I'm growing to like you and your'e very naive but likeable view of the wider world.


  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    England's a 'big' country mate. It doesn't need Scotland but the UK is an entity that punches above its weight. Little Scotland would soon find its place, not a place that you somehow imagine it to be.

    No disrespect Fife because I'm growing to like you and your'e very naive but likeable view of the wider world.

    Thanks for completely failing to address my response.

    It doesn't need Scotland, but it needs the Republic or Ireland (a successful independent country within the EU)?

    Perhaps you should point England out to yourself on a world map. It's really not that 'big'.

  9. #68
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?
    Will Wales and England (what about N.Ireland?) really cut their nose off to spite their face and “shut the border”? Where will they import goods from when the EU “shuts the border” on England & Wales?

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Thanks for completely failing to address my response.

    It doesn't need Scotland, but it needs the Republic or Ireland (a successful independent country within the EU)?

    Perhaps you should point England out to yourself on a world map. It's really not that 'big'.
    Its massive as a trading nation Fife. Folk look to London and England and that wouldn't change no matter if we up here in Scotland separate from the UK or not. In fact we'd likely become a complete nonentity altogether within a group of how many 27 countries that has Germany and France at its center.

    We'd go from being a big part of the UK which does do well in the wider world to being a tiny part of the EU set adrift from our island neighbours England and Wales.

    its just the truth mate.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modfather View Post
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    Will Wales and England (what about N.Ireland?) really cut their nose off to spite their face and “shut the border”? Where will they import goods from when the EU “shuts the border” on England & Wales?
    Its entirely subjective.

    If we separate from England and Wales there's no guarantee whatsoever they would allow us into their countries without passports.

    Nationalism tends to lend itself to shutting of doors.

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Its massive as a trading nation Fife. Folk look to London and England and that wouldn't change no matter if we up here in Scotland separate from the UK or not. In fact we'd likely become a complete nonentity altogether within a group of how many 27 countries that has Germany and France at its center.

    We'd go from being a big part of the UK which does do well in the wider world to being a tiny part of the EU set adrift from our island neighbours England and Wales.

    its just the truth mate.
    What will London have left to trade with considering all of the major industries that are pulling out over Brexit? Why do you think London is considerably more pro-EU relative to everywhere else in England?

    We'll go from being a big part of the UK which DID do well in the world to an independent country within the EU that England will heavily rely on for European and Scottish imports.

  13. #72
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Its entirely subjective.

    If we separate from England and Wales there's no guarantee whatsoever they would allow us into their countries without passports.

    Nationalism tends to lend itself to shutting of doors.
    The two Ireland’s seem to manage just fine crossing backwards and forwards. Why would we be any different with our geographical border with England?

  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Because even when you have your own prefered answer to a question, you still want to hear other peoples answers. Is that ok?
    That would be fine if you listened to their answers Instead of berating them.

    Listening does not mean preparing to argue.
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  15. #74
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    That would be fine if you listened to their answers Instead of berating them.

    Listening does not mean preparing to argue.
    Disagreeing and giving my reasons for doing so is not "berating". Would you rather I just pretended to agree?

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What will London have left to trade with considering all of the major industries that are pulling out over Brexit? Why do you think London is considerably more pro-EU relative to everywhere else in England?

    We'll go from being a big part of the UK which DID do well in the world to an independent country within the EU that England will heavily rely on for European and Scottish imports.
    If you want to vote for a party that hook line and sinker will ultimately be run by Germany and France so be it mate. Me i'd rather fight for the poor and underpriviliged, working classes, education, pensions etc etc led by the time served party such as Labour is. The snp will say literally anything but the tartan tories would in order to separate us from the UK.

  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    If you want to vote for a party that hook line and sinker will ultimately be run by Germany and France so be it mate. Me i'd rather fight for the poor and underpriviliged, working classes, education, pensions etc etc led by a long time served party such as the Labour Party.

    The snp will say literally anything but the tartan tories would.
    Where is your evidence that Scotland would be run by Germany and France?

    Are you suggesting that Germany and France reign supreme over the European Parliament? Because last time I checked, the only union that has an unelected entity that can overrule parliament is the United Kingdom.

  18. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modfather View Post
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    The two Ireland’s seem to manage just fine crossing backwards and forwards. Why would we be any different with our geographical border with England?
    I understand the separatists want to pretend things would remain relatively the same in the event of separatism. However, most rational folk realise nothing would.

    Just now we have a long time union in place. In the event of separating from that everything is merely subjective.

    No guarantees that England and Wales would not subject us to passport controls or worse.

    Your'e a massive gamble Modfather. Remaining within the UK which serves us very well isn't!

    Why would us Scots that have long time had a good deal from England and Wales separate from it other than it being a massive gamble?

    Tell us please.

  19. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Where is your evidence that Scotland would be run by Germany and France?

    Are you suggesting that Germany and France reign supreme over the European Parliament? Because last time I checked, the only union that has an unelected entity that can overrule parliament is the United Kingdom.
    If you don't think Germany and France are the big guns who do you think actually rules the EU?

    How much actual decision making would happen if all 27 countries had an equal voice?

    None probably.

    Be realistic, most folk are you know.

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    I understand the separatists want to pretend things would remain relatively the same in the event of separatism. However, most rational folk realise nothing would.

    Just now we have a long time union in place. In the event of separating from that everything is merely subjective.

    No guarantees that England and Wales would not subject us to passport controls or worse.

    Your'e a massive gamble Modfather. Remaining within the UK which serves us very well isn't!

    Why would us Scots that have long time had a good deal from England and Wales separate from it other than it being a massive gamble?

    Tell us please.
    It’s as much a gamble to stay in a UK moving into uncharted territory and more likely than not leaving the EU with a no deal as it is becoming independent and staying in the EU.

    No one can say how the UK will look or how prosperous it will be in 10 years. Same as no one can say how Scotland would look 10 years into independence. Whatever road anyone chooses now is fraught with risk and uncertainty.

  21. #80
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    If you don't think Germany and France are the big guns who do you think actually rules the EU?

    How much actual decision making would happen if all 27 countries had an equal voice?

    None probably.

    Be realistic, most folk are you know.
    In what way do Germany and France manipulate the political framework of the European Parliament in order to "rule" the EU? The parliamentary system simply doesn't allow for it.

    Stating that they do, doesn't make it true. You need to actually back it up by showing how they game the European political system in order to ensure all decisions fall in their favour.

  22. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    In what way do Germany and France manipulate the political framework of the European Parliament in order to "rule" the EU? The parliamentary system simply doesn't allow for it.

    Stating that they do, doesn't make it true. You need to actually back it up by showing how they game the European political system in order to ensure all decisions fall in their favour.
    I could easily say why do you think England rules the UK? Of course there are leaders whether its England within the UK or Germany and France within the EU or the US within the Western world.

    Are you naive for a reason?

    Just like dunfermline is the capital of Fife?

    You were likeable prove you were again please.

  23. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modfather View Post
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    It’s as much a gamble to stay in a UK moving into uncharted territory and more likely than not leaving the EU with a no deal as it is becoming independent and staying in the EU.

    No one can say how the UK will look or how prosperous it will be in 10 years. Same as no one can say how Scotland would look 10 years into independence. Whatever road anyone chooses now is fraught with risk and uncertainty.
    You sir are a 100/1 gamble. One that I would shy well clear of.

  24. #83
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    I could easily say why do you think England rules the UK? Of course there are leaders whether its England within the UK or Germany and France within the EU or the US within the Western world.

    Are you naive for a reason?

    Just like dunfermline is the capital of Fife?

    You were likeable prove you were again please.
    Where did I say "England rules the UK"? Westminster rules the UK, overseen by an unelected House of Lords and Head of State (the queen). The EU has neither of these things. Each tier of the European Parliament is elected. We elect the MEPs and those MEPS that we elect, elect those at the very top.

    Here is a video that can hopefully explain it to you in simple terms you can understand.

  25. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Where did I say "England rules the UK"? Westminster rules the UK, overseen by an unelected House of Lords and Head of State (the queen). The EU has neither of these things. Each tier of the European Parliament is elected. We elect the MEPs and those MEPS that we elect, elect those at the very top.

    Here is a video that can hopefully explain it to you in simple terms you can understand.
    s

    Nae disrespect Fife

    Why don't you look at JC and his renationalisation program.

    It would stand you in much greater ground because snp isolation does Scotland no good whatsoever mate.

    You're a likeable guy, get on board the left of center JC train that is a coming.

  26. #85
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Why don't you look at JC and his renationalisation program.
    Just how well do you think his renationalisation program would go in a minority government (like the SNP has at Holyrood)?

  27. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Just how well do you think his renationalisation program would go in a minority government (like the SNP has at Holyrood)?
    The Tartan Tories - Snp.

    All aboard the JC juggernaut.

    JC is the man, no doubt whatsoever.

  28. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    The Tartan Tories - Snp.

    All aboard the JC juggernaut.

    JC is the man, no doubt whatsoever.
    Hallelujah.
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  29. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What I don't understand about the NHS privitization argument is that it's been going since 1948. How did they fund a fully public healthcare service back then? Why can't it be cost covered now in 2019?

    What has changed to make it so unmanagable now?
    It’s called Baumol’s cost disease.

  30. #89
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Disagreeing and giving my reasons for doing so is not "berating". Would you rather I just pretended to agree?
    Read some of your posts again.

    Your tone is always aggressive, superior and dismissive. Always.

    And, given that a good part of what you say is made up nonsense, you're quite clearly not interested in genuine, adult discussion which is what I hoped we would get when I started this thread.

    So yes, it is berating. And it has become very tedious.
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  31. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    s

    Nae disrespect Fife

    Why don't you look at JC and his renationalisation program.

    It would stand you in much greater ground because snp isolation does Scotland no good whatsoever mate.

    You're a likeable guy, get on board the left of center JC train that is a coming.
    Or a going. Or a standing still.

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