Whataboutary Club of the Month for April

[Smartie]

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I don't think it is as simple as telling them to behave. We have to be seen to get our house in order first. Then we can take the high ground.

Which we've either done, or have taken big steps towards doing.

We've not cobbled together some half-arsed acknowledgment whilst stressing that everyone else is worse than us.

[Ozyhibby]

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I don't think it is as simple as telling them to behave. We have to be seen to get our house in order first. Then we can take the high ground.

On sectarian singing, our house is in order. There is nothing to stop us doing this now.
We have already taken action on other issues and will continue to do so when required.
Easter road should not be somewhere for bigots to glorify violence against people of different faiths. We should have a no tolerance approach to this.


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[PatHead]

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Which we've either done, or have taken big steps towards doing.

We've not cobbled together some half-arsed acknowledgment whilst stressing that everyone else is worse than us.

This season we have had a fan arrested for giving a player racial abuse. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game. We still have a long way to go before we can claim to be on our way to sorting it. If we came out on the moral high ground we would be shot down in flames.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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On sectarian singing, our house is in order. There is nothing to stop us doing this now.
We have already taken action on other issues and will continue to do so when required.
Easter road should not be somewhere for bigots to glorify violence against people of different faiths. We should have a no tolerance approach to this.


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One hundred per cent, and sectarianism is almost non-existent in our support, happily. All are welcome.

[Aim Here]

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How can Stevie Gerrard be an Orange B'st'rd if he's a Roman Catholic?

If, as some suggest, it's a sectarian slur against Protestants...then it can't possibly apply to him.

Firstly, bigoted terms are still bigoted even if they're misapplied. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11 by morons believing they were muslims are still the victim of anti-muslim hate crimes.

Secondly, Slippy's not catholic, though IIRC, he has sent his offspring to catholic school or something of that ilk.

Thirdly, what does 'orange *******' refer to, if it's not some supposed religious affiliation? And further to that, if you're going to claim that the orange in 'orange *******' refers to the Orange Order, or Orange marchers, can you please explain how a term for a Protestant/anticatholic fraternal organization can possibly refer to Steve Gerrard, whom you've just this minute mistaken for a catholic, and who is clearly not affiliated with that particular group?

'Orange *******' is pretty much the green arsecheek variant of 'fenian *******'. Just as Rangers fans say 'It's not sectarian, fenians were a 19th century Irish nationalist organization' before applying it to anyone of a vaguely catholic persuasion that they don't like the look of, Celtic fans use 'orange *******' in a similar manner in the opposite way, and try to justify it with their ridiculous technical definition. There's usually a lot of differences between exactly how the arsecheeks engage in their particular flavours of bigotry, and I normally think that 'they're each the same as the other' is a bit of a lazy cop-out, but these particular instances of Old Firm *****baggery seem almost to be mirror images of each other.

[Ozyhibby]

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This season we have had a fan arrested for giving a player racial abuse. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game. We still have a long way to go before we can claim to be on our way to sorting it. If we came out on the moral high ground we would be shot down in flames.

Haven’t we banned the individual from Easter road? We have taken action there so why not when it is mass singing of sectarian songs? Why are we treating sectarianism differently from racism?


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[Smartie]

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This season we have had a fan arrested for giving a player racial abuse. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game. We still have a long way to go before we can claim to be on our way to sorting it. If we came out on the moral high ground we would be shot down in flames.

The club's response to the fan caught giving a player racial abuse was swift and unequivocal. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game with no foundation whatsoever other than what someone might want to read into a coconut being chucked onto a football pitch when a goal was scored.

We are not trying to get any sort of moral high ground - we are trying to eradicate racist and sectarian abuse and if you are going to be bold in doing so properly, sometimes you have to open yourselves up to accusations from the whataboutery brigade.

There is nothing of significance that I witness on anything like a regular basis from Hibs fans (whilst acknowledging the existence of pished morons at Tynecastle, the odd line in a song that is never really heard these days) that should stop us calling out who are now the main perpetrators, thousands of them, week after week.

[Keith_M]

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Firstly, bigoted terms are still bigoted even if they're misapplied. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11 by morons believing they were muslims are still the victim of anti-muslim hate crimes.

Secondly, Slippy's not catholic, though IIRC, he has sent his offspring to catholic school or something of that ilk.
.

So he's definitely not a Protestant, so any accusations of it being an insult to his beliefs are blatantly nonsense.

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Thirdly, what does 'orange *******' refer to, if it's not some supposed religious affiliation? .

I'd reckon it's along the lines of calling somebody a "White Supremacist Bstrd".

Hence the reason that quite a large number of Protestants are happy to chant it at people because they disapprove of their bigotry, much the same as a white person can disapprove of a member of the KKK.

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...And further to that, if you're going to claim that the orange in 'orange *******' refers to the Orange Order, or Orange marchers, can you please explain how a term for a Protestant/anticatholic fraternal organization can possibly refer to Steve Gerrard, whom you've just this minute mistaken for a catholic, and who is clearly not affiliated with that particular group? .

Surely that's my point, though, that he actually ISN'T a Protestant, which is a fact well know to the Aberdeen Fans that were IRONICALLY chanting that at him

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'Orange *******' is pretty much the green arsecheek variant of 'fenian *******'. Just as Rangers fans say 'It's not sectarian, fenians were a 19th century Irish nationalist organization' .

The word Fenian has been used by bigoted Rangers Fans to refer to Roman Catholics for decades. While missaplied, the intent has always been clear

It's only in the last few years that anyone has claimed Orange is equivelant to Protestant, a "fact" put out there by bigotted Rangers Fans as an act of whittabootery and laughlingly accepted by organisation such as Nil By Mouth.

I hate Orangemen, for what they stand for, but I certainly don't hate all Protestants... e.g. a large section of my family




p.s. I was born into a Church of Scotland family, and was considered "Protestant" during a large part of my childhood.

[ancient hibee]

Surely it's obvious that it doesn't matter what the religion is of the person being abused.What matters is what the abuser thinks it is..

[Hibernia&Alba]

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So he's definitely not a Protestant, so any accusations of it being an insult to his beliefs are blatantly nonsense.



I'd reckon it's along the lines of calling somebody a "White Supremacist Bstrd".

Hence the reason that quite a large number of Protestants are happy to chant it at people because they disapprove of their bigotry, much the same as a white person can disapprove of a member of the KKK.




Surely that's my point, though, that he actually ISN'T a Protestant, which is a fact well know to the Aberdeen Fans that were IRONICALLY chanting that at him




The word Fenian has been used by bigoted Rangers Fans to refer to Roman Catholics for decades. While missaplied, the intent has always been clear

It's only in the last few years that anyone has claimed Orange is equivelant to Protestant, a "fact" put out there by bigotted Rangers Fans as an act of whittabootery and laughlingly accepted by organisation such as Nil By Mouth.

I hate Orangemen, for what they stand for, but I certainly don't hate all Protestants... e.g. a large section of my family




p.s. I was born into a Church of Scotland family, and was considered "Protestant" during a large part of my childhood.

I take what you mean in reference to the Orange. A group of fans who sing The Sash but who then cry sectarianism when they are called Orange so and so's is a bit rich. However, we surely all agree that these kind of references have no place in football nor Scotland generally. Not all Rangers supporters sing The Sash nor have any connection to the Orange Order, thus it's a sectarian slur based upon a stereotype. I see no justification for its invocation at football, and this form of tribalism based upon religious ignorance only holds us back.

[Ozyhibby]

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I take what you mean in reference to the Orange. A group of fans who sing The Sash but who then cry sectarianism when they are called Orange so and so's is a bit rich. However, we surely all agree that these kind of references have no place in football nor Scotland generally. Not all Rangers supporters sing The Sash nor have any connection to the Orange Order, thus it's a sectarian slur based upon a stereotype. I see no justification for its invocation at football, and this form of tribalism based upon religious ignorance only holds us back.

Totally agree.


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[superfurryhibby]

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So he's definitely not a Protestant, so any accusations of it being an insult to his beliefs are blatantly nonsense.



I'd reckon it's along the lines of calling somebody a "White Supremacist Bstrd".

Hence the reason that quite a large number of Protestants are happy to chant it at people because they disapprove of their bigotry, much the same as a white person can disapprove of a member of the KKK.




Surely that's my point, though, that he actually ISN'T a Protestant, which is a fact well know to the Aberdeen Fans that were IRONICALLY chanting that at him




The word Fenian has been used by bigoted Rangers Fans to refer to Roman Catholics for decades. While missaplied, the intent has always been clear

It's only in the last few years that anyone has claimed Orange is equivelant to Protestant, a "fact" put out there by bigotted Rangers Fans as an act of whittabootery and laughlingly accepted by organisation such as Nil By Mouth.

I hate Orangemen, for what they stand for, but I certainly don't hate all Protestants... e.g. a large section of my family

Some very good points here.

I tried on several occasions to engage with Nil by Mouth, emailing them to highlight some basic flaws in their summary of sectarianism and sport in Scotland (they were making analogies with the Glasgow derby and saying that there was a smaller, but still significant sectarian elements which brought religious hatred to the Edinburgh derby).

I gave my view there is only one team in Edinburgh who’s support routinely indulge in sectarianism ( the one with their very own flute band, the red hand flags etc, etc...) and I stick by what I said earlier in this thread that a handful of tricolours and flags with harps ( which have a particular link to the club’s past) does not equal a serious sectarian issue amongst the Hibs support.

What I tried to explain was that Hibs’ name should not be tarnished with the same brush. It’s not true and by pandering to that myth you actually add legitimacy to the bigots.

My view of sectarianism in Edinburgh football tells me that Hibs fans largely left these songs behind in the 1980’s. Much of the singing of pro IRA songs etc wasn’t a reflection of a widespread endorsement of terrorism anyway, but as much a way of winding up the Huns.

We left it behind. Unfortunately a fairly visible element of our neighbours haven’t quite managed that. Many Hearts fans despise the bigots in their support too. Let’s not make the mistake of equating random tricolours at ER with a sectarian problem amongst our fanbase. It’s not true.

[CMurdoch]

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“Smeltic”. Are you a child?

Sorry about that meant Victims FC