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  1. #181
    Testimonial Due Paisley Hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS View Post
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    OK I admit I might have sung ď For we will be mastered by no orange b......Ē about 30 years ago but no way are we as bad nowadays as the Huns the diets or the smellies.





    And there is the problem folks....


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  3. #182
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    A laughable and lazy response. Usually youíre not short on words and I enjoy your posts.

    How does a handful of tricolours and a few Erin Gu Bragh at ER compare to the majority endorsement of religious hatred found in the singing and barely disguised official endorsement of religious division at Ibrox( the Orange away strip- contemptible pandering to the loyalist pound).

    The hardcore Hearts fans interest in sectarianism, as per the flute band using their name and colours, has no parallel at Hibs. What historical attachment do Hearts fans have to the Red Hand flag? Once again overt displays of sectarianism?

    The problem of perpetuating sectarianism partly with people who fail to see where the problem lies and you appear to be one of them.

    When did you last here a religious hate based song at Easter Road? In my book it must be 30 years ago.

    I genuinely donít believe Hibs have a prominent group of fans with overt sectarian tendencies. Unfortunately, this is not the case at Ibrox, Celtic Park or Tynecastle.

    The situations are different and pretending it is otherwise lends strength to status quo.

    You quoted my post and then came up with an argument against it which directly went to the heart of the matter of what I had said when it comes to the perpetuation of sectarianism in this country's football. What did I say? That I was not arguing against the right of Hibs fans to wave Erin go Bragh flags or tricolours and neither was I arguing against the right of Hearts fans to wave union flags Ö I'm not sure where Ulster flags come into it IMO they cant show any right to wave them, which is why I didn't mention them.

    You seem to have entirely missed the pretty obvious point that I was making so I'll reiterate it. The point at issue isn't whether or not fans have a right to wave certain flags, or even a discussion about who does or doesn't have the biggest problem with sectarianism. The point was that if we want to eradicate sectarianism from the terraces then at least as a first step we need to set aside flags and symbols which perpetuate it, no matter how much 'right' we have to wave them and no matter how innocent our intentions when we use them.

    Your response to my post was to argue a point that I had already conceded, so if my response to you was lazy then your failure to interpret the case I was making in my post showed that your reading of it was definitely lazy. I cant see where my wish to see the visible symbols which fuel sectarianism, no matter how unintentionally, can in any way be interpreted as giving strength to the status quo as you put it. That only holds water if the argument is about who has a right to do what and a whitabootery discussion regarding who is more sectarian Ö. that's not the argument I'm making, the argument is about what we can do to eradicate it.

    All you did was to indulge in the never ending argument about who can or cant do what and who has or hasn't got the right to fly what flag. That's exactly the attitude which has fuelled sectarianism for decades Ö. I am not saying you are consciously advocating sectarianism, just that the argument you present has been driving it and will continue to do so unless we change.
    Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 13-04-2019 at 03:35 PM.

  4. #183
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paisley Hibby View Post
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    Just to play devil's advocate - if you believe The Rangers are not the same club as the one which went bust in 2012, then you'd have to accept that the Erin Gu Bragh flags also relate to a different club from ours.

    I've certainly heard an anti-orange song regularly by Hibs fans within the past few decades - it starts "The Edinburgh Hibees, the Tim Mallory, for we'll not be mastered....". While we don't have the same level of sectarian problem of other some clubs, let's not pretend it doesn't exist. And as for the Tricolours - I hate to see that (and I'm a Catholic by the way).
    The song starts with forever and ever, weíll follow the boys. Not heard it sung for decades at ER but I donít go to away games so canít say that itís never sung then.

    Iím not pretending anything. What Iím saying is that we must be looking at the issue with proportionality. There is a huge, enormous, massive, fundamental difference between the levels of interest and endorsement of religious hatred between Hibs and Rangers fans. Is that not a basic fact?

    The presence of a flag with a harp and slogan, as well a few numpties with tricolours bears no relationship to what we see at some other clubs, whether you hate to see them at Hibs or not. Itís not misguided whataboutery on my part, itís just pointing out some basic facts.

    There are many views and many persuasions amongst the Hibsfan base, including racists, homophobes, xenophobes, we even have people who are keen to demonstrate their British credentials ( see the large green and black union flags). There is proportionally as many views as there are amongst supporters of any club. But common sense and my own eyes and ears tell me our contribution to Scotlandís sectarian issue is minimal.

  5. #184
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    The song starts with forever and ever, weíll follow the boys. Not heard it sung for decades at ER but I donít go to away games so canít say that itís never sung then.

    Iím not pretending anything. What Iím saying is that we must be looking at the issue with proportionality. There is a huge, enormous, massive, fundamental difference between the levels of interest and endorsement of religious hatred between Hibs and Rangers fans. Is that not a basic fact?

    The presence of a flag with a harp and slogan, as well a few numpties with tricolours bears no relationship to what we see at some other clubs, whether you hate to see them at Hibs or not. Itís not misguided whataboutery on my part, itís just pointing out some basic facts.

    There are many views and many persuasions amongst the Hibsfan base, including racists, homophobes, xenophobes, we even have people who are keen to demonstrate their British credentials ( see the large green and black union flags). There is proportionally as many views as there are amongst supporters of any club. But common sense and my own eyes and ears tell me our contribution to Scotlandís sectarian issue is minimal.
    I'm pretty sure the guys who came up with them were doing so from a point of view that they looked cool rather than any desire to show their 'Britishness' Ö only based on the fact that I'm sure on another flag debate thread that's what they said. I stand to be corrected by any of the folk behind those flags.

  6. #185
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    You quoted my post and then came up with an argument against it which directly went to the heart of the matter of what I had said when it comes to the perpetuation of sectarianism in this country's football. What did I say? That I was not arguing against the right of Hibs fans to wave Erin go Bragh flags or tricolours and neither was I arguing against the right of Hearts fans to wave union flags Ö I'm not sure where Ulster flags come into it IMO they cant show any right to wave them, which is why I didn't mention them.

    You seem to have entirely missed the pretty obvious point that I was making so I'll reiterate it. The point at issue isn't whether or not fans have a right to wave certain flags, or even a discussion about who does or doesn't have the biggest problem with sectarianism. The point was that if we want to eradicate sectarianism from the terraces then at least as a first step we need to set aside flags and symbols which perpetuate it, no matter how much 'right' we have to wave them and no matter how innocent our intentions when we use them.

    Your response to my post was to argue a point that I had already conceded, so if my response to you was lazy then your failure to interpret the case I was making in my post showed that your reading of it was definitely lazy. I cant see where my wish to see the visible symbols which fuel sectarianism, no matter how unintentionally, can in any way be interpreted as giving strength to the status quo as you put it. That only holds water if the argument is about who has a right to do what and a whitabootery discussion regarding who is more sectarian Ö. that's not the argument I'm making, the argument is about what we can do to eradicate it.

    All you did was to indulge in the never ending argument about who can or cant do what and who has or hasn't got the right to fly what flag. That's exactly the attitude which has fuelled sectarianism for decades Ö. I am not saying you are consciously advocating sectarianism, just that the argument you present has been driving it and will continue to do so unless we change.
    No, the argument I presented said that we have very few issues with overt sectarianism amongst our support. That fact does not drive sectarianism. Ignoring the reality of the nature of religious division in Scottish football and seeking to drag our club into it is bizarre.

  7. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by pacoluna View Post
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    I ask again what happened to the "old we guy" who was caught racially abusing the hearts player.

    There seems to an emphasis on this being a generational issue within our support "younger supporters" which is absolutely nonsence and completely hypocritical given it was much, MUCH worse in the past. Would be interesting to hear their stories and the remorse they hold.

    That's not deflecting btw it's just stating a fact that noone regardless of age should be taking a moral high ground.
    Maybe used the same excuse as Jeremy Corbyn when he was accused of slurring against Theresa May. A lip sync but not proven blurt out perhaps??

  8. #187
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paisley Hibby View Post
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    And there is the problem folks....
    It was my attempt at humour/irony

    Still think we are not as bad as the bigots

  9. #188
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    I'm pretty sure the guys who came up with them were doing so from a point of view that they looked cool rather than any desire to show their 'Britishness' Ö only based on the fact that I'm sure on another flag debate thread that's what they said. I stand to be corrected by any of the folk behind those flags.

    I am sure at least one of the union flags has names of past Hibees names on it to remember them. Someone can maybe confirm this.

    My wife mentioned the green union flag recently when it was shown on TV and that's what I thought it was.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  10. #189
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    I am sure at least one of the union flags has names of past Hibees names on it to remember them. Someone can maybe confirm this.

    My wife mentioned the green union flag recently when it was shown on TV and that's what I thought it was.
    Hmmmm!

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  11. #190
    @hibs.net private member silverhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    I am sure at least one of the union flags has names of past Hibees names on it to remember them. Someone can maybe confirm this.

    My wife mentioned the green union flag recently when it was shown on TV and that's what I thought it was.
    One is a CCS flag and pretty sure the other one has some English connection.

  12. #191
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    I am sure at least one of the union flags has names of past Hibees names on it to remember them. Someone can maybe confirm this.

    My wife mentioned the green union flag recently when it was shown on TV and that's what I thought it was.
    CCS Flag and Spirits in the Sky banner at the 2016 SC Final

  13. #192
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Did "Liverpool Hibs" not have a green and black Union flag?

  14. #193
    @hibs.net private member Ringothedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS View Post
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    Hmmmm!

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    And still is👍

  15. #194
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringothedog View Post
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    And still is👍
    Thanks for the replies guys. Clears it up.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  16. #195
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    No, the argument I presented said that we have very few issues with overt sectarianism amongst our support. That fact does not drive sectarianism. Ignoring the reality of the nature of religious division in Scottish football and seeking to drag our club into it is bizarre.
    I'm not ignoring the subject of religious division in the slightest.

    Here's the facts around religious division in Scottish football. The vast vast majority of folk who follow Rangers and Hearts or Hibs and Celtic are about as religious as the chairman of the British atheist society and you would be as likely to find them in a church or chapel as the local humanist adherent.

    The real meat and bones around football's sectarian divide is now far more nationalistic than religious, even if its beginnings were in Ireland's religious divide. The union flag and red hand of Ulster flag wavers are all about Britishness and unionism covered in a veneer of Protestantism, that's the reality of it. The obvious counter culture to that is the tricolour Ö. and the basis for that is a support of Irish unity, not an anti Protestant standpoint. But the effect is the same Ö wave a union flag you must be Protestant, wave a tricolour you must be Catholic.

    I don't know why you are lecturing me over some perceived idea that I have suggested the Hibs support has a sectarian element, I have never suggested any such thing because there simply isn't any evidence for it. In all honesty I don't think Hearts have much in the way of a sectarian element either, their far bigger problem is a turn towards right wing British nationalism by the minority of dafties in their support Ö even if it is dressed up as and perceived as sectarianism.

    How you can suggest I'm trying to drag Hibs into the sectarian question is bizarre. All I am saying is that from time to time the symbols that have been seen as the visual signs of the sectarian divide in this country are seen within the Hibs support Ö IE the tricolour and Erin go Bragh flags. It doesn't matter a toss if the folk using these flags say and genuinely believe that they are in honour of our clubs founders or that Erin go Bragh was the clubs original motto, their use enables Ö and that's the salient point here 'enables' Ö the knuckle draggers on the other side to indulge in whitabootery.

    That's the bottom line in this discussion and I don't know why you continue to lecture me on points I have already conceded from the very beginning. The point isn't whether or not our support, or any support for that matter, has a sectarian element, the point is that if we are to seriously address the problem we have to get away from the fact that we have a right to do this or that and ask the question of whether not doing it would help to eradicate sectarian culture from the whole of Scottish football.

    In my opinion if we were to make that sacrifice we would be setting an example which would be a first step on that road. For sure anybody could turn around and say 'aye but why should we when the others wont?' Ö. but if that is to be the case then we can look forward to the whole vicious circle going on and on and on.

  17. #196
    @hibs.net private member Kato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    The real meat and bones around football's sectarian divide is now far more nationalistic than religious, even if its beginnings were in Ireland's religious divide.
    The religious divide in Ireland was always political.

  18. #197
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
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    The religious divide in Ireland was always political.
    I agree Ö but the politics are still driven by sectarianism, the two being hopelessly intertwined with Protestants voting one way and Catholics voting the other, a fact which is still the case in Northern Irish politics. Its just that these days the politics is far more important than the religion .. about 90% of the folk who vote for the DUP don't even agree with their policies on abortion or gay marriage, but they still vote for them because they are the pro union party.

    That's what I was alluding to in my other posts Ö. I genuinely believe that your average modern day currant bun singing his sectarian bile doesn't really hate Kaffliks, he just thinks he does .. the truth is the union v a united Ireland is far more to the fore in his thinking than any thoughts of theological divisions.

    Whether its religious or political its still sectarianism and at the end of the day arguing the semantics doesn't really address the problem.

  19. #198
    Coaching Staff jacomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalianwanda View Post
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    Sure we could pick holes in it but cant see much wrong with the message..

    Thereís a problem with the message if you canít finish the 4th paragraph without falling asleep.

    She may be well intentioned but I lost the will to find out what action Hearts are taking.

  20. #199
    Ultimate Slaver Keith_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    ....we even have people who are keen to demonstrate their British credentials ( see the large green and black union flags). ....

    You need to do some more research before stating that so categorically.

    I have no doubt that there are Hibs Fans that are proud to be British, but you're wrong about that flag.

  21. #200
    @hibs.net private member Dalianwanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacomo View Post
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    Thereís a problem with the message if you canít finish the 4th paragraph without falling asleep.

    She may be well intentioned but I lost the will to find out what action Hearts are taking.
    I doubt your her target demographic though

  22. #201
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_M View Post
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    You need to do some more research before stating that so categorically.

    I have no doubt that there are Hibs Fans that are proud to be British, but you're wrong about that flag.
    Well why donít you simply explain the mystery?

  23. #202
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    The green and black union flag is used by the CCS

    Probably because it looks quite cool and to wynd up the Celtic The Huns and the diets

    Probably the green and white to represent HIBS and the black to represent a darker more sinister undercurrent

    Nothing to do whatsoever with a longing to be part of a United Kingdom although I am sure there might be some hibbies out there that do

    Mystery solved

  24. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
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    The religious divide in Ireland was always political.
    Yes and it is only very recently, more or less the last 50 years, that is has been portrayed as a Catholic v Protestant thing. It was a Church of Ireland v any other form of Christianity thing, based on imposing a political and fiscal dominance. Very few of the leaders of the various rebellion/uprisings in Ireland were catholic.

    People keep saying ďif you know your historyĒ then demonstrate quite clearly that they donít.

    It is, to a lesser extent, suggested of Jacobite uprising in Scotland that it was a Protestant v catholic struggle. Yet only one in five of the Jacobite army was catholic and the pope supported William of Orange at the start of all that bit of it

    Polarisation needs only two poles and so it suits some parties to simplify these things down to Protestant v Catholic in the modern day.
    Last edited by CentreLine; 15-04-2019 at 07:31 PM.

  25. #204
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS View Post
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    The green and black union flag is used by the CCS

    Probably because it looks quite cool and to wynd up the Celtic The Huns and the diets

    Probably the green and white to represent HIBS and the black to represent a darker more sinister undercurrent

    Nothing to do whatsoever with a longing to be part of a United Kingdom although I am sure there might be some hibbies out there that do

    Mystery solved
    Thereís me thinking casuals didnít sport colours, except on the cover of their book (s). To be fair, I (vaguely) knew one or two guys involved 30 years ago and letís just say their views werenít exactly left wing.

  26. #205
    Some wonderful posts by Nae Nookie on this thread.
    Nails all my thoughts on the matters of flags, perception, the way forward etc far more eloquently than i ever could. The best i have seen on here.


    A good post from Centreline as well.
    Last edited by CMurdoch; 15-04-2019 at 11:20 PM.

  27. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS View Post
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    The green and black union flag is used by the CCS

    Probably because it looks quite cool and to wynd up the Celtic The Huns and the diets

    Probably the green and white to represent HIBS and the black to represent a darker more sinister undercurrent

    Nothing to do whatsoever with a longing to be part of a United Kingdom although I am sure there might be some hibbies out there that do

    Mystery solved
    I don't pretend to be in the know with this type of thing but i'd suggest there were / are some CCS people who share the clubs Irish origins and some who were / are Republican minded, so don't think anything political can be read into this flag. Just like the Hibs support as a whole they seem to me to be a pretty broad church of different views and while there were / are right wing types involved that's not the motivation for the flag afaik. Back in the 80s black was kind of our unofficial third colour so id suggest nothing more sinister than that.

    As to the whole "orange b" thing I had plenty atheist mates of Protestant origin who used to sing that song as they viewed orange as something very different from Protestant. However in the world of whataboutery im sure the huns will counter that "fenians" means Republicans and not all Catholics. Havent heard the "tim malloy" song sung for a while but given the world of whataboutery we live in, hopefully it will totally drop off the Hibs songbook.

  28. #207
    @hibs.net private member BILLYHIBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brizo View Post
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    I don't pretend to be in the know with this type of thing but i'd suggest there were / are some CCS people who share the clubs Irish origins and some who were / are Republican minded, so don't think anything political can be read into this flag. Just like the Hibs support as a whole they seem to me to be a pretty broad church of different views and while there were / are right wing types involved that's not the motivation for the flag afaik. Back in the 80s black was kind of our unofficial third colour so id suggest nothing more sinister than that.

    As to the whole "orange b" thing I had plenty atheist mates of Protestant origin who used to sing that song as they viewed orange as something very different from Protestant. However in the world of whataboutery im sure the huns will counter that "fenians" means Republicans and not all Catholics. Havent heard the "tim malloy" song sung for a while but given the world of whataboutery we live in, hopefully it will totally drop off the Hibs songbook.


    Pretty much where I am and how I remember it

    These colours donít run

  29. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS View Post
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    Pretty much where I am and how I remember it

    These colours donít run

    These dodgy knees don't run

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