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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    If a cop would see how it would look, don't you think that if there was something to hide then that would be a significant reason not to meet? Unless your theory is that they met to be 'hiding in plain sight'? It doesn't make sense.

    I am actually questioning Gambles "expert status", he is trotted out as an authority on the case, and is disrespectful to colleagues in Portugal.

    The police files and statements will have inconsistencies and conflicts, I would think that is entirely expected in a case that has been investigated over a number of years and by a number of people.

    I am referring to the statements gathered in the first 12 months of the investigation. Here, specifically to three different versions of events from the 9, in the 24 hours following the alarm. A reconstruction would have helped.

    Different theories will be tested and disproved and different lines of thinking will emerge.

    Of course, I believe that at the end of the day a court case is the fairest way to arrive at a conclusion. The McCanns were keen on that, constantly asking the Portuguese Courts to declare them innocent. They didn't do that and reaffirmed they are very much in the frame.

    Bear in mind that the McCanns have a huge emotional influence in their actions and statements. They've lost their daughter.

    Yet, when it suits then, they attribute their emotional detachment to their medical background. They seem to swing between the two as suits their position.

    IMHO, you have your mind made up and so you'll attach weight to the 'evidence' and theories that support it, which means it's easy for you to dismiss things that don't suit ("As for hiring lawyers, when your child is still missing. As you do, eh?")

    I do not deny that. Just as you came up with an implausible argument as to why they would do that.


    Looking online, 30 children went missing from Portugal between Madeleine's disappearance and 2012, so while it's not frequent it does happen.

    How many were found within 24 hours. How many bare still missing. How does that compare to the UK?

    And still the "would working class families have got the same attention?" is this the McCann's fault? Does the attention they got AFTER the event make them guilty?

    I woujd argue that the attention the NcCanns got was very much due to their own efforts, it cuts both ways, they courted publicity, people have a right to ask questions, especially when they have been collecting money from the public

    Shannon Matthews went missing for a bit, couldn't get more working class than that family, and there was a huge media interest in the story. Amazingly, her parents were found out very quickly by competent police.

    Don't go there Matty, the Portuguese police are just as competent as ours, as their records show.

    The other point you make in this thread, which I have a real issue with, is the Team McCann "attack the counter argument" stuff. Trust me, that exists in your head and in the heads of the folk who are pushing their theories, and nowhere else.

    Unfair, you can't quantify that statement. Let me ask you, what is the split in opinion of the British public? That's in your head.

    I have no connection to the McCanns. I don't know if they're guilty or not but I do know that on the balance of probability, given how much time, money and energy has been spent investigating the case, they're innocent.

    So because our honest cops and politicians are spending money (Hillsborough, Birmingham Six, Timothy Evans etc) say so, that's good enough for you? Nothing else I can say.

    If evidence emerges to contradict that down the line, then I'd be happy to accept that as I have no emotional attachment to the outcome at all.

    Good for you.

    My significant gripe here (and it's the same with those that go on about 911 conspiracies, or the moon landings being faked, or the earth being flat) is that folk pick and choose which 'facts' or evidence to present to support their argument, often out of context and frequently not in full (so they take a selective part of a statement, which means something completely different when viewed on it's own than it does when viewed as part of the full context).

    See what you did there. The facts are in the public domain, the YouTube videos are there. The police files are there for all to read. The lies in the media fed by McCann can easily be shown.

    See on this thread "why did the McCanns refuse to answer the police's questions?"
    "why did they suppress this efit photo (that I've posted next to a photo of Gerry McCann - draw your own conclusions)?"

    What's your point Matty? It's what happened. Why can't you accept it? Why can't you accept they are still using Jane Tanner's sighting which would place the abductor elsewhere, even though the man has been tracked down?
    Sorry my answers aren't in bold can't do it on my phone.

    Let's move on. What evidence of an abduction is there? How did the abductor get in and out in three minutes, and leave no trace of having been in the room.

    Why did the Tapas 9 change their stories to fit the theory of
    how the guy got in (clearly jemmied window early on, but changed when pointed out the window wasn't jemmied?"

    You are the one seeing what you want to see. We have polar opposite positions, and I am not going to convince you to change your position by referring to the facts and red flags. So, prove to me that child was taken by a stranger.
    Last edited by Cataplana; 20-06-2019 at 12:08 PM.


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  3. #212
    Administrator matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    Sorry my answers aren't in bold can't do it on my phone.

    Let's move on. What evidence of an abduction is there? How did the abductor get in and out in three minutes, and leave no trace of having been in the room.

    Why did the Tapas 9 change their stories to fit the theory of
    how the guy got in (clearly jemmied window early on, but changed when pointed out the window wasn't jemmied?"

    You are the one seeing what you want to see. We have polar opposite positions, and I am not going to convince you to change your position by referring to the facts and red flags.

    So, prove to me that child was taken by a stranger.
    I can't prove the child was taken by a stranger, and I don't think (as far as I can remember) that I've ever said that's what happened. I've consistently said I don't know what happened though.

    I'm curious as to why you think the burden of proof lies with me?

    As to the other points - of course there are inconsistencies in versions of events. You're talking about people trying to recollect events which they were previously unaware would be of any significance to them. If you asked everyone who I'm working with today what happened from the start of our shift to the end of our shift, you'd get inconsistencies from one person to the other.

    Ask them again in a month, and you'd get even more inconsistencies, and then ask them again three months down the line. Maybe emphasise how important it is that they get it right to throw in some stress, and the chances are the variances would be even greater.

    With respect to the 30 children, I don't know the answers to the questions you posed to them, but I fail to see the relevance of them. For reference, the sources I used were the Sun online and the Huffington Post (they came up close to the top in the search results), I haven't qualified their sources but since we're quoting Youtube as a source for information I think that's fair enough.

    I haven't said that the Portugese police were incompetent, just that the British police were when finding out what happened to Shannon Matthews.

    As for the Team McCann, that probably came out more disrespectfully than intended, so I'll apologise for that. What I meant by it is that I don't think there's an army of people connected to the McCanns who are trawling the internet to attack people with different theories.

    Surprisingly, there is very close evidence of people doing it the other way around though

    Ironically, pulling out Hillsborough and the Birmingham Six as examples probably supports my theory rather than yours, they are high profile and very rare, and ultimately justice was done. If anything - these examples show that it would have been more likely for the police (either Portugese or British) to pin the case on the McCanns and fit the evidence to support that theory, thus closing the case whether they were guilty or not.

    The facts are in the public domain, how they are presented makes a significant difference to how they are viewed and to what aspects of them are given significance.

    I'm not seeing what I want to see, if I saw enough credible evidence to support that the McCanns were responsible to outweigh the evidence that says that they weren't, then I'd accept it.

    The stuff that's been presented is nowhere close to that,though.

  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I can't prove the child was taken by a stranger, and I don't think (as far as I can remember) that I've ever said that's what happened. I've consistently said I don't know what happened though.

    I'm curious as to why you think the burden of proof lies with me?

    IF you could do that, I'll go away, I promise.

    As to the other points - of course there are inconsistencies in versions of events. You're talking about people trying to recollect events which they were previously unaware would be of any significance to them. If you asked everyone who I'm working with today what happened from the start of our shift to the end of our shift, you'd get inconsistencies from one person to the other.

    IF that was a defence no one would ever be found guilty. Let me stress though, we are talking about three attempts in 12 hours to piece together events.


    Ask them again in a month, and you'd get even more inconsistencies, and then ask them again three months down the line. Maybe emphasise how important it is that they get it right to throw in some stress, and the chances are the variances would be even greater.

    YEAH, but 12 hours?

    With respect to the 30 children, I don't know the answers to the questions you posed to them, but I fail to see the relevance of them. For reference, the sources I used were the Sun online and the Huffington Post (they came up close to the top in the search results), I haven't qualified their sources but since we're quoting Youtube as a source for information I think that's fair enough.

    NEARLY all their interviews are on YouTube. The Sun guaranteed that they would never print anything negative about the McCanns. They are not unbiased.

    Source will almost certainly be their spin doctor. I wish I could give you an exact breakdown of the 30, but most were back within 24 hours, very few were under five, and none was taken from their bed.


    I haven't said that the Portugese police were incompetent, just that the British police were when finding out what happened to Shannon Matthews.

    SORRY, I called you out wrongly. I agree, in addition Portugal also acknowledges they should have gone in harder on the parents, but buckled to British pressure.

    As for the Team McCann, that probably came out more disrespectfully than intended, so I'll apologise for that. What I meant by it is that I don't think there's an army of people connected to the McCanns who are trawling the internet to attack people with different theories.

    THEY do have a spin doctor. They have embraced the media from the start. Just about every story in the British press is false and can easily be disproved

    Going by Twitter they also have a couple of paid shills whose job is to spread fake news and attack opponents.

    Surprisingly, there is very close evidence of people doing it the other way around though

    Nobody is perfect.

    Ironically, pulling out Hillsborough and the Birmingham Six as examples probably supports my theory rather than yours, they are high profile and very rare, and ultimately justice was done. If anything - these examples show that it would have been more likely for the police (either Portugese or British) to pin the case on the McCanns and fit the evidence to support that theory, thus closing the case whether they were guilty or not.

    It is a high profile case. The highest in government got involvrd. There is a Netflix series. They paid to keep the story in the press for a year .


    The facts are in the public domain, how they are presented makes a significant difference to how they are viewed and to what aspects of them are given significance.

    More reliable than the press.

    I'm not seeing what I want to see, if I saw enough credible evidence to support that the McCanns were responsible to outweigh the evidence that says that they weren't, then I'd accept it.

    If someone can show me evidence of an abduction I'd accept that. £12m and absolutely hee haw to show for it.

    The stuff that's been presented is nowhere close to that,though.

    A career at the bar is probably over ambitious.
    They changed their version of events as the first one was bollocks and an abduction would not have been possible.

  5. #214
    Administrator matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    They changed their version of events as the first one was bollocks and an abduction would not have been possible.
    It's not on the McCanns to prove she was abducted though. Surely at best that is their theory on what happened, but in the absence of a proven explanation of what happened, it's only ever going to be that.

    They'll know for definite if they killed her or if they found her dead and moved her. I struggle to see why they'd want an investigation to continue if that was the case, as if it was the case, they've gotten away with i as things stand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    They changed their version of events as the first one was bollocks and an abduction would not have been possible.

    you do realise that their first version would have been shortly after their daughter went missing.Do you think that could possibly have affected their clarity??

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    you do realise that their first version would have been shortly after their daughter went missing.Do you think that could possibly have affected their clarity??
    Edit|: You do realise that they thought they were going to jail if they couldn't get their story straight?

    I'm sure that you would expect a defence lawyer to highlight that. The thing is the McCanns and their friends state of mind tends to fluctuate according to what suits the situation.

    My memories of watching LA Law have me thinking of a phrase "you cannot speculate on mental state". Time and again people have said, "you can't tell what you would think in that situation." Quite, but I'm sure cops go on red flags like inconsistent stories, changing stories and what people's motivation for changing the story is.

    They excuse their lack of emotion and detachment from what was going on by pointing to the fact that they trained as doctors, and that's how doctors act in a crisis. Likewise this is used to explain why they didn't immediately join the search, and why Kate ran out of the apartment leaving the remaining two children in there alone.

    So, to an extent it might also explain why when the alarm had been raised, and everyone else was out looking for their daughter, that they would see their best contribution as being cool and collected and sit down with their friends to write a timeline on their daughters colouring book.

    They were also able to phone home, give a clear statement to at least three different people that the window had been jemmied. This is very important, as this was quickly shown to be untrue. They then sat down and wrote another sequence of events that took care of the window not being jemmied.

    Amaral covers why they had doubts about the abduction story from the get go, in his book. Here is a link, Truth of the Lie . If you read Chapter Four you see what the objective police observers saw on the night.

    Imagine you are the jury, does it seem suspicious to you or not?
    Last edited by Cataplana; 28-06-2019 at 08:14 PM.

  8. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    It's not on the McCanns to prove she was abducted though. Surely at best that is their theory on what happened, but in the absence of a proven explanation of what happened, it's only ever going to be that.

    They'll know for definite if they killed her or if they found her dead and moved her. I struggle to see why they'd want an investigation to continue if that was the case, as if it was the case, they've gotten away with i as things stand.
    I go out to the shops with my grand daughter, and come back without her. People ask where she is, I say "that's for you to work out", that would scan well wouldn't it?

    David Gilroy protests his innocence, however his conviction is based on a theory in the absence of a body.

    Lots of convictions are based on theories.

    As long as they can spin out their theory that the child was abducted then they will get away with it, if they did it.

    At the end of the day, it should be for a jury to decide. A DNA sample with 15 out of 19 matches is more than enough to convict in the UK.

    So much speculation on what you or I would or wouldn't do. We are not the McCanns, we can't know what they were thinking. But, just because we don't want to believe that parents could do such things, doesn't mean to say we have to accept what they tell us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    Edit|: You do realise that they thought they were going to jail if they couldn't get their story straight?

    I'm sure that you would expect a defence lawyer to highlight that. The thing is the McCanns and their friends state of mind tends to fluctuate according to what suits the situation.

    My memories of watching LA Law have me thinking of a phrase "you cannot speculate on mental state". Time and again people have said, "you can't tell what you would think in that situation." Quite, but I'm sure cops go on red flags like inconsistent stories, changing stories and what people's motivation for changing the story is.

    They excuse their lack of emotion and detachment from what was going on by pointing to the fact that they trained as doctors, and that's how doctors act in a crisis. Likewise this is used to explain why they didn't immediately join the search, and why Kate ran out of the apartment leaving the remaining two children in there alone.

    So, to an extent it might also explain why when the alarm had been raised, and everyone else was out looking for their daughter, that they would see their best contribution as being cool and collected and sit down with their friends to write a timeline on their daughters colouring book.

    They were also able to phone home, give a clear statement to at least three different people that the window had been jemmied. This is very important, as this was quickly shown to be untrue. They then sat down and wrote another sequence of events that took care of the window not being jemmied.

    Amaral covers why they had doubts about the abduction story from the get go, in his book. Here is a link, Truth of the Lie . If you read Chapter Four you see what the objective police observers saw on the night.

    Imagine you are the jury, does it seem suspicious to you or not?
    they are not on trial...so Jury is irrelevant...

    you are talking without emotion..they weren't

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    It's a shame that such a thing drags on in the media for so long, just because the parents are high profile doctors. Think of the countless parents who have lost children since and before then and have had very little coverage on it, because they're just not "high profile" enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    they are not on trial...so Jury is irrelevant...

    you are talking without emotion..they weren't
    We are considering facts in much the same way a jury would.

    At the end of the day, it's about the facts how they are presented and interpreted.

    Did you read the facts gathered by the police? Were the people confused, or lieing? That's what answering the questions that Kate refused to answer might have helped resolve the whole issue.

    There were inconsistencies that needed addressed, and taking part in a reconstruction might have been wise too.

    I just don't buy that the PJ would try to frame them with the amount of media and political involvement in the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    It's a shame that such a thing drags on in the media for so long, just because the parents are high profile doctors. Think of the countless parents who have lost children since and before then and have had very little coverage on it, because they're just not "high profile" enough.
    I don't buy the class angle. There have been people from other backgrounds who have been protected by the establishment, or have had influence through the media.

    Saville was a working class lad when you think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    We are considering facts in much the same way a jury would.

    At the end of the day, it's about the facts how they are presented and interpreted.

    Did you read the facts gathered by the police? Were the people confused, or lieing? That's what answering the questions that Kate refused to answer might have helped resolve the whole issue.

    There were inconsistencies that needed addressed, and taking part in a reconstruction might have been wise too.

    I just don't buy that the PJ would try to frame them with the amount of media and political involvement in the case.
    I don’t suspect they would try to frame them...but as they completely failed in their investigation, they needto seek to apportion blame somewhere....they failed to do that effectively too, by the way..

    You can point to inconsistency in the parents behaviour, none of that takes away from an ineffective performance from the police and authorities on this case....which has resulted in them failing to secure a conviction for any alleged perpetrators


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    I don’t suspect they would try to frame them...but as they completely failed in their investigation, they needto seek to apportion blame somewhere....they failed to do that effectively too, by the way..

    You can point to inconsistency in the parents behaviour, none of that takes away from an ineffective performance from the police and authorities on this case....which has resulted in them failing to secure a conviction for any alleged perpetrators


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    The fact that you continue to talk about a failed investigation suggests you have not read Amaral's book, or any of the other evidence that the investigation was well run; or that you refuse to accept its validity.

    Which is it?
    Last edited by Cataplana; 29-06-2019 at 03:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    The fact that you continue to talk about a failed investigation suggests you have not read Amaral's book, or any of the other evidence that the investigation was well run; or that you refuse to accept its validity.

    Which is it?
    Neither - don’t have too...

    As they have not charged anyone with the murder or disappearance of the poor child - the failure is clear for everyone to see

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Neither - don’t have too...

    As they have not charged anyone with the murder or disappearance of the poor child - the failure is clear for everyone to see
    How can you see things are clear to see when you can only see part of the picture? The failure to make an arrest may not be Portugals fault.

    Scotland Yard continue to look for an abductor. A man was seen by the Smith family carrying a child at the time alarm was raised. I think he is the person that needs to be found.

    I believe when that man is found, and questioned that the final piece of the jigswaw will be in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    How can you see things are clear to see when you can only see part of the picture? The failure to make an arrest may not be Portugals fault.

    Scotland Yard continue to look for an abductor. A man was seen by the Smith family carrying a child at the time alarm was raised. I think he is the person that needs to be found.

    I believe when that man is found, and questioned that the final piece of the jigswaw will be in place.
    Who’s responsibility do you feel it was to find people like that earlier in the investigation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Who’s responsibility do you feel it was to find people like that earlier in the investigation?
    The investigating force, what suggests to you they weren't trying to find him? If you read their account, you will see that they did.

    He was one of many leads they had to follow up. If you read Amaral's account you will see the problems that arose.

    Bear in mind, they were also having to deal with continual false sightings from the dodgy private eyes hired by McCann.

    What else did they do wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    The investigating force, what suggests to you they weren't trying to find him? If you read their account, you will see that they did.

    He was one of many leads they had to follow up. If you read Amaral's account you will see the problems that arose.

    Bear in mind, they were also having to deal with continual false sightings from the dodgy private eyes hired by McCann.

    What else did they do wrong?
    They didn’t find out what happened or charge the perpetrators.... that’s what their accountability is....

    anything else in process or method is largely insignificant..

    One small example though, is that journalists , unconnected with the McCann’s detailed lots of examples in the days after Maddie went missing of cars, trucks and vans going over the border to Spain. , without any check or inspection...that is verified and independent testimony ..so, there is one, but perhaps critical, lack of discipline and control that may have led to their failure to secure a result in this terrible case ..and what else was not done correctly of obvious controls such if those were managed in a lax manner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    They didn’t find out what happened or charge the perpetrators.... that’s what their accountability is....

    anything else in process or method is largely insignificant..

    One small example though, is that journalists , unconnected with the McCann’s detailed lots of examples in the days after Maddie went missing of cars, trucks and vans going over the border to Spain. , without any check or inspection...that is verified and independent testimony ..so, there is one, but perhaps critical, lack of discipline and control that may have led to their failure to secure a result in this terrible case ..and what else was not done correctly of obvious controls such if those were managed in a lax manner?
    Deleted my last post. This is pointless when you won't accept any new information.

    FYI we don't stop traffic in the UK when kids go missing either.

    The Forth Road Bridge remained open when Mikhail Khukar disappeared.

    You are just ignoring anything that goes against your view and repeating the same old mantras that the McCanns have been preaching from day one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    Deleted my last post. This is pointless when you won't accept any new information.

    FYI we don't stop traffic in the UK when kids go missing either.

    The Forth Road Bridge remained open when Mikhail Khukar disappeared.

    You are just ignoring anything that goes against your view and repeating the same old mantras that the McCanns have been preaching from day one.
    Of course we stop and check cars when kids go
    Missing ..we also take actions at ports and airports in events of these types of incidents ..we are an island , so we don’t have physical borders in the way Portugal does ..tbh. What we do is somewhat irrelevant, as the Portuguese authorities (and you have repeated it on here) claimed that they had set up controls at perimeters and borders - and I’m merely pointing out that the controls were lax - just a fact - may or may not be vital...you are deflecting that by now suggesting we don’t do it ...

    I’m laughing at your reaction...it seems you have spent 100s of hours researching this and have nothing other than a reaction from cadaver dogs (which can’t be linked to a specific person ) and some assumptions around behaviours ...

    I don’t have any agenda or view of what happened - other than I don’t believe that the truth would still be hidden if the family and friends had covered up an accidental death - someone would have broken by now. That is human nature

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    No, it's not all I have, but when you are unprepared to read the evidence I present, what can I do? For someone with no interest in the case, you seem to pretty adept at reeling off the standard McCann defences, and also demonstrate the standard McCann fingers in the ears response to stuff you don't want to hear.

    I give you Mikael Khukar as an example, and you tell me it's not true. Then you talk nonsense about Spain and Portugal having a land border, like crossing it is the equivalent of taking the kid to Mars.

    And of course, the odd sky attack at the person passing the information on to you doesn't go amiss. I don't believe you have no interest in this, you are too determined to rubbish information that looks bad for them.


    The Independence of the British Press

    (Apologies for copying this direct, from The McCann's War by Paolo Reis. I am doing it to illustrate why it is a good reason to fork opinion from more than one source.

    Especially when the same source comes up with two blatantly opposite reports. I suppose he's another one that could have been overcome with emotion and got all his facts wrong the first time, right enough.

    The question really is, "which one do you believe?" The one before Clarence Mitchell started telling British papers what to write, or the one after his arrival in PdL?)

    In one of the most flagrant cases, Martin Fricker and Rod Chaytor of the "Daily Mirror" signed a laudatory piece on May 5, highlighting the fact that the entire 5-story building was sealed by police with the usual blue and white ribbons, and that fingerprints had been collected from the blinds and window of Madeleine's bedroom.

    The article noted that even the rear yard area had been sealed off by police: “Officers sealed off the five story holiday block with crime scene tape and fingerprinted the shutters and window sill outside Maddy's room. A patio to the rear of the block, believed to be attached to the family's two-bedroom apartment, was also sealed off”.

    During the afternoon, still according to the same article, the searches had intensified, with helicopters, firemen and elements of the Maritime Police.

    "A special Judicial Police team was on its way from Lisbon," added the Daily Mirror article, which quoted Sky News weather news presenter Jo Wheeler in Praia da Luz as reporting in the newspaper that the searches "were very well organized".

    The same Martin Fricker, this time with the journalist Stewart Maclean, penned another article, on May 9, where there is a list of the "ten great blunders" committed by the Portuguese police in the first hours after the disappearance is made.

    In this list, there is totally contradictory information about the first article in the Daily Mirror on 5 May. In this second story, it is stated that the apartment had not been sealed: “Officers failed to cordon off the holiday apartment where Maddy was snatched as soon as they arrived.

    Amazingly, other tourists were allowed to stroll around the crime scene up to 24 hours later - potentially destroying clues and contaminating forensic evidence."

    Quite a change of story there. Why the sudden need to start rubbishing the Portuguese police? Who gains from that?
    Last edited by Cataplana; 30-06-2019 at 08:06 AM.

  23. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    The Independence of the British Press

    (Apologies for copying this direct, from The McCann's War by Paolo Reis. I am doing it to illustrate why it is a good reason to fork opinion from more than one source.

    Especially when the same source comes up with two blatantly opposite reports. I suppose he's another one that could have been overcome with emotion and got all his facts wrong the first time, right enough.

    The question really is, "which one do you believe?" The one before Clarence Mitchell started telling British papers what to write, or the one after his arrival in PdL?)

    In one of the most flagrant cases, Martin Fricker and Rod Chaytor of the "Daily Mirror" signed a laudatory piece on May 5, highlighting the fact that the entire 5-story building was sealed by police with the usual blue and white ribbons, and that fingerprints had been collected from the blinds and window of Madeleine's bedroom.

    The article noted that even the rear yard area had been sealed off by police: “Officers sealed off the five story holiday block with crime scene tape and fingerprinted the shutters and window sill outside Maddy's room. A patio to the rear of the block, believed to be attached to the family's two-bedroom apartment, was also sealed off”.

    During the afternoon, still according to the same article, the searches had intensified, with helicopters, firemen and elements of the Maritime Police.

    "A special Judicial Police team was on its way from Lisbon," added the Daily Mirror article, which quoted Sky News weather news presenter Jo Wheeler in Praia da Luz as reporting in the newspaper that the searches "were very well organized".

    The same Martin Fricker, this time with the journalist Stewart Maclean, penned another article, on May 9, where there is a list of the "ten great blunders" committed by the Portuguese police in the first hours after the disappearance is made.

    In this list, there is totally contradictory information about the first article in the Daily Mirror on 5 May. In this second story, it is stated that the apartment had not been sealed: “Officers failed to cordon off the holiday apartment where Maddy was snatched as soon as they arrived.

    Amazingly, other tourists were allowed to stroll around the crime scene up to 24 hours later - potentially destroying clues and contaminating forensic evidence."

    Quite a change of story there. Why the sudden need to start rubbishing the Portuguese police? Who gains from that?
    It’s a good example you share ...there was definitely at times “this backward country Portugal don’t know what they are doing..” tone to some of the British media coverage ..

    That tone fuels division..unfortunately it has existed for decades (if not longer) and has been part of the recent media approach which has fuelled some of the “them and us” tone on macro topics - such as immigration and brexit ...it is horrible ..and unfortunately the Daily Mail’s, Sun etc have used hate as a key editorial tool for decades ..it is the worst of British press..more disappointingly the BBC have become more populist in recent years too...

    There are nuances though - there is nothing to stop (or wrong with) a journo reflecting days later and drawing revised conclusion - perhaps he had more info by then ?

    Equally, you do come over too protective of the authorities response to this case. I agree they were made to look incompetent by the British media at times, that is clearly not true - yet neither did the authorities do everything effectively..

  24. #233
    Promising Youngster Cataplana's Avatar
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    Hmmm, change of tone there.

    We really aren't getting anywhere, All I ask is that you look into things from different angles from the line spun with the British media.

    They have been repeating the same themes since the McCanns started to brief them: there was no assistance with searching; Portugal is soft on paedophiles; police response was ineffective; Police chief was corrupt, lazy and incompetent; there is no DNA evidence; cadaver dogs are unreliable; Portugal offered Kate a plea deal; Jane Tanner saw the abductor; the parents have been cleared.

    None of these things are true. The reason I lean towards the official (ie non McCann) version of events, is that it is backed up by witness statements, given by real people (not "sources", or "family friends") and it is objective.

  25. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataplana View Post
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    Hmmm, change of tone there.

    We really aren't getting anywhere, All I ask is that you look into things from different angles from the line spun with the British media.

    They have been repeating the same themes since the McCanns started to brief them: there was no assistance with searching; Portugal is soft on paedophiles; police response was ineffective; Police chief was corrupt, lazy and incompetent; there is no DNA evidence; cadaver dogs are unreliable; Portugal offered Kate a plea deal; Jane Tanner saw the abductor; the parents have been cleared.

    None of these things are true. The reason I lean towards the official (ie non McCann) version of events, is that it is backed up by witness statements, given by real people (not "sources", or "family friends") and it is objective.
    Tbh. I’m more looking at the tone and content of your arguments - it’s not a case that I invest time in ..

    I don’t fall in love with the “British” view..my perspective is more objective than that ..

    The fact is the “officials” have neither found Maddie nor identified what happened ...their view may have good details in it, but it falls some way short of a successful Investigation..that not a British view , it is simply a factual observation...

  26. #235
    Promising Youngster Cataplana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Tbh. I’m more looking at the tone and content of your arguments - it’s not a case that I invest time in ..

    I don’t fall in love with the “British” view..my perspective is more objective than that ..

    The fact is the “officials” have neither found Maddie nor identified what happened ...their view may have good details in it, but it falls some way short of a successful Investigation..that not a British view , it is simply a factual observation...
    Sorry, I always meant to ask, what qualifies you to judge a successful operation?

    Don't kid yourself you've got an objective perspective, by your own admission you are not even prepared to read other material on the subject.

  27. #236
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    I'm sat near in a nightclub on the Bay of Roses and there's a young couple mid 20s sat drinking and with a babyphone, the nearest accommodation is easily 150-200m away. I can only presume they've left their kid alone. Now I don't know where they're staying but maybe there's someone here who does and now knows the kid is on its own. Totally irresponsible.

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