Stats

[CmoantheHibs]

I remember years ago watching some American sport and how reliant the commentators were on stats. Every angle had a stat for it. At that time we never really used stats too much in our game. Over the last 2 or 3 years though the use of stats has increased dramatically over here. I noticed the amount of comments on the new manager thread using stats without regard to the different circumstances. So what are people's views on the upsurge of stats in our game?

[Hi Heid Yin]

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I remember years ago watching some American sport and how reliant the commentators were on stats. Every angle had a stat for it. At that time we never really used stats too much in our game. Over the last 2 or 3 years though the use of stats has increased dramatically over here. I noticed the amount of comments on the new manager thread using stats without regard to the different circumstances. So what are people's views on the upsurge of stats in our game?

We have statisticians behind the scenes at Easter Road.

These guys analyse and compile stats for the head of recruitment.

This "new order" was implemented under Leeann Dempster and is seen as a "continuous" model, so that any new manager /coach arriving at ER will fit in seamlessly, with much of the donkey work done for him in terms of identifying players.

Underpinning this model is a financial structure with in-built limitations, including financial.

I would suggest that Neil Lennon was "frustrated" by the financial limitations of our club, as he did not get anywhere near the quality of player his ambition demanded, especially knowing he was losing McGinn, McGeouch and Allan and, further down the line - Efe Ambrose.

[bawheid]

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We have statisticians behind the scenes at Easter Road.

These guys analyse and compile stats for the head of recruitment.

This "new order" was implemented under Leeann Dempster and is seen as a "continuous" model, so that any new manager /coach arriving at ER will fit in seamlessly, with much of the donkey work done for him in terms of identifying players.

Underpinning this model is a financial structure with in-built limitations, including financial.

I would suggest that Neil Lennon was "frustrated" by the financial limitations of our club, as he did not get anywhere near the quantity or quality of player his ambition demanded, especially knowing he was losing McGinn, McGeouch and Allan and, further down the line - Efe Ambrose.

Anyone managing Hibs has to realise that you’re not going to replace a John McGinn with a John McGinn. If you’re very lucky you might find a future John McGinn. More likely you’ll have to wait ten years.

[Tricla]

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Anyone managing Hibs has to realise that you’re not going to replace a John McGinn with a John McGinn. If you’re very lucky you might find a future John McGinn. More likely you’ll have to wait ten years.

Exactly.

[weecounty hibby]

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We have statisticians behind the scenes at Easter Road.

These guys analyse and compile stats for the head of recruitment.

This "new order" was implemented under Leeann Dempster and is seen as a "continuous" model, so that any new manager /coach arriving at ER will fit in seamlessly, with much of the donkey work done for him in terms of identifying players.

Underpinning this model is a financial structure with in-built limitations, including financial.

I would suggest that Neil Lennon was "frustrated" by the financial limitations of our club, as he did not get anywhere near the quality of player his ambition demanded, especially knowing he was losing McGinn, McGeouch and Allan and, further down the line - Efe Ambrose.

And once again from you. "I would suggest that Neil Lennon was frustrated....." Pure guesswork from you that just means that you are saying that all the ills of the club at the moment are down to everyone else except Neil. You are all over every thread with it. Even this one that was about statistics and nothing to do with Lennon, recruitment or even football specifically.

[Hi Heid Yin]

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Anyone managing Hibs has to realise that you’re not going to replace a John McGinn with a John McGinn. If you’re very lucky you might find a future John McGinn. More likely you’ll have to wait ten years.

Aberdeen seem to have done alright in getting players through the door to replace so-called "irreplaceable players" and in continuing to compete at the very top. So, it can be done, albeit I realise that their financial situation is unlike ours.

I would suggest that our "behind the scenes" team are good at coming up with impressive stats and profiles on players, but have to bear in mind our budget and thus focus on players who are "up and coming" with "potential" rather than "established".

Mallan, for example, falls into the "potential" category.

He was signed in "hope" more than "expectation".

It's really hit or miss with players with so-called "potential".

During his time, Stubbsy got some "great players" through the door, but he/our club also signed a few duds along the way.

[bawheid]

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Aberdeen seem to have done alright in getting players through the door to replace so-called "irreplaceable players" and in continuing to compete at the very top. So, it can be done, albeit I realise that their financial situation is unlike ours.

Who? When Aberdeen lose their entire midfield in one go and still end up third you might have a point. Hasn’t happened though.

[CmoantheHibs]

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We have statisticians behind the scenes at Easter Road.

These guys analyse and compile stats for the head of recruitment.

This "new order" was implemented under Leeann Dempster and is seen as a "continuous" model, so that any new manager /coach arriving at ER will fit in seamlessly, with much of the donkey work done for him in terms of identifying players.

Underpinning this model is a financial structure with in-built limitations, including financial.

I would suggest that Neil Lennon was "frustrated" by the financial limitations of our club, as he did not get anywhere near the quality of player his ambition demanded, especially knowing he was losing McGinn, McGeouch and Allan and, further down the line - Efe Ambrose.

So do you think stats are good or bad in regards to player recruitment?

[Hi Heid Yin]

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And once again from you. "I would suggest that Neil Lennon was frustrated....." Pure guesswork from you that just means that you are saying that all the ills of the club at the moment are down to everyone else except Neil. You are all over every thread with it. Even this one that was about statistics and nothing to do with Lennon, recruitment or even football specifically.

Neil Lennon is far from blameless in my eyes, just as the whole recruitment team behind the scenes and our hierarchy at ER are far from blameless in the part that they played in our club's short-fallings this season.

Every man and his dog knows of Neil lennon's "frustrations" without me repeating them ad nauseum.

For me he was flawed, driven, eccentric, a loose-cannon, a maverick, a football purist, impetuous, articulate, analytical, out-spoken, charismatic, a hard task-master, demanding, entertaining, enthusiastic, a joker and a mischevious school boy with his airplane dance,

an instigator, a leader, one of footballs characters.

I could say so much more but I think this is enough to paint a picture and to give you an insight into what this Hibby thought of our ex-manager.

[Hi Heid Yin]

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So do you think stats are good or bad in regards to player recruitment?

Stats are stats, and are open to interpretation and manipulation. They are "useful" as opposed to "good or bad".

Our club might be able to identify how many crosses a certain player "averages" during a game or over a season, or how many assists he also made for a particular club - with all the machinations and circumstances surrounding that club that year.

Did the player contribute significantly while his team struggled in the relegation zone?

This might tell us more (or less) than if he contributed next to nothing in a team that was "coasting comfortably near the top of a particular league"

Stats have their use and effectiveness depending on the agenda of the person interpreting them.

[matty_f]

Stats are all well and good when you're recruiting players, but they count for nothing of the player is injured and unavailable.

Boyle, for example, has good stats for us but I'd out for the session.

I'm sure Porteous' stats would stack up against Hanlon or McGregor's this season but he's not available.

Stats aren't the problem this season, not having anything resembling a settled team and not having key players available is more of a factor.

[CmoantheHibs]

Ha we are getting closer to the original question of whether stats are actually useful in football. They can be used in many ways depending on people's agendas but do people think they help.

[Cameron1875]

Moneyball is a fantastic film regarding stats being used in Baseball. Not a sport that interests me but even the film got me hooked.

Anyway, I think there is a place for them but football has too many variables compared to sports like Baseball I think. For instance they don't have an Andrew Dallas ;)

Liverpool tried it under Dalglish where they signed Adam, Downing and Andy Carroll. Something to do with free kick accuracy, cross completion and headers won.
It didn't work out too well for them...

[ballengeich]

Stats are useful when the person who's examining them understands which to use.

[Hi Heid Yin]

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Stats are all well and good when you're recruiting players, but they count for nothing of the player is injured and unavailable.

Boyle, for example, has good stats for us but I'd out for the session.

I'm sure Porteous' stats would stack up against Hanlon or McGregor's this season but he's not available.

Stats aren't the problem this season, not having anything resembling a settled team and not having key players available is more of a factor.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Stats are stats, and are open to interpretation and manipulation. They are "useful" as opposed to "good or bad".

Our club might be able to identify how many crosses a certain player "averages" during a game or over a season, or how many assists he also made for a particular club - with all the machinations and circumstances surrounding that club that year.

Did the player contribute significantly while his team struggled in the relegation zone?

This might tell us more (or less) than if he contributed next to nothing in a team that was "coasting comfortably near the top of a particular league"

Stats have their use and effectiveness depending on the agenda of the person interpreting them.

62.07% of stats Re made up.

[HoboHarry]

Stats are pish. FACT.

Am I doing this right?

[CmoantheHibs]

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Stats are useful when the person who's examining them understands which to use.

So with regards to hiring a new head coach which stats are useful?

[Aim Here]

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So with regards to hiring a new head coach which stats are useful?

I'd imagine that the two main ones would be the win %, or league points compared to the immediate preceding and succeeding managers, and also the team's performance relative to the amount of money spent on player wages under the manager's tenure (i.e. if a team is the 5th highest-spending team in a league, then it should roughly end up a place either side of 5th in that league.)

The mean speed and accuracy of a medium-weight office chair bowled overarm from a standing start towards an attacking centre midfielder 8 metres away should also be taken into consideration.

Of course, there's a whole pile of factors other than statistics to consider (new managers won't have these stats, there may be extenuating circumstances outside of the manager's performance and the player wages affecting a team performance, etc etc).

[PompeyHibs]

8 wins in 25 is shocking
Lets hope for a good cup run and beating the yams and the the the rangers
Sadly we are bottom six

No pace
No real quality imo

[Hi Heid Yin]

Interestingly, in yesterdays Evening News I see that our Steve Mallan made the SPL team of the season based on his "stats".

The stats were not made available, which did not help.

For all his critics, he must then be doing something right.

[sambajustice]

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Interestingly, in yesterdays Evening News I see that our Steve Mallan made the SPL team of the season based on his "stats".

The stats were not made available, which did not help.

For all his critics, he must then be doing something right.

You can bend stats though to suit whatever argument you want to put across.

Example, Jorginho for Chelsea has done like 5 million passes this season with a ridiculous pass completion rate - HUZZAH!

Total Assists - 0! Boo!

[jacomo]

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Anyone managing Hibs has to realise that you’re not going to replace a John McGinn with a John McGinn. If you’re very lucky you might find a future John McGinn. More likely you’ll have to wait ten years.

True although we didn’t sign even a similar type of player last summer.

We have now though.

[ian cruise]

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And once again from you. "I would suggest that Neil Lennon was frustrated....." Pure guesswork from you that just means that you are saying that all the ills of the club at the moment are down to everyone else except Neil. You are all over every thread with it. Even this one that was about statistics and nothing to do with Lennon, recruitment or even football specifically.

I think saying Neil Lennon was frustrated at the club for signings is a fair assumption to make given some of his press conferences however that's not the clubs fault, it's his. I'm sure the way transfers were handled and the budget was all explain to him well in advance and he was fine with it when it was working and we got rid of Stokes and Murray for Maclaren and Kamberi, it was only when players didn't settle as well as he wanted that it seemed to become an issue.

[ian cruise]

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Aberdeen seem to have done alright in getting players through the door to replace so-called "irreplaceable players" and in continuing to compete at the very top. So, it can be done, albeit I realise that their financial situation is unlike ours.

I would suggest that our "behind the scenes" team are good at coming up with impressive stats and profiles on players, but have to bear in mind our budget and thus focus on players who are "up and coming" with "potential" rather than "established".

Mallan, for example, falls into the "potential" category.

He was signed in "hope" more than "expectation".

It's really hit or miss with players with so-called "potential".

During his time, Stubbsy got some "great players" through the door, but he/our club also signed a few duds along the way.

I think Mallan would have been signed with expectation rather than hope. There was an expectation he'd replicate the form that had him as one of the Scottish leagues most sought after players for a short while.

You're right though, all clubs sign some good and bad players, or good players where it just doesn't work out. The transfer market is an inexact science and there are so many outside factors that influence how a player performs for the team it's always going to be the case. Unfortunately unlike Celtic and clubs in England we don't have the resources to just dump our duds and replace them, we need to try find a way to make the signings work for us which isn't always a quick fix.

[Stevie Reid]

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Interestingly, in yesterdays Evening News I see that our Steve Mallan made the SPL team of the season based on his "stats".

The stats were not made available, which did not help.

For all his critics, he must then be doing something right.

He's scored 11 goals in 33 games, and is our top scorer this season.

[Killiehibbie]

Goals scored v goals conceded in each game is the best stat of all, we might find the team that does best at this wins the league

[houstonhibbee]

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He's scored 11 goals in 33 games, and is our top scorer this season.

Reminds me a lot of ally McLeod who Had a slow and lazy style but still scored a lot of goals

[Killiehibbie]

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I remember years ago watching some American sport and how reliant the commentators were on stats. Every angle had a stat for it. At that time we never really used stats too much in our game. Over the last 2 or 3 years though the use of stats has increased dramatically over here. I noticed the amount of comments on the new manager thread using stats without regard to the different circumstances. So what are people's views on the upsurge of stats in our game?

How did it work out for Cathro or was he just too far ahead for them?

[superfurryhibby]

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Reminds me a lot of ally McLeod who Had a slow and lazy style but still scored a lot of goals

Ally was a very gifted player, despite his lack of pace. Not sure that applies to Mallan though.