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  1. #31
    First Team Breakthrough mvteng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Because a nationalised railway will be run to suit the short term needs of politicians
    Maybe, maybe not. Whos to say that the short term needs of politicians are? You're assuming the worst case


    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    The subsidy the old British Rail needed to run the railway was much higher than the subsidy now.
    ok, so that good. As before, if the current private companies can run the railways at a profit, I dont see why a change in owners would necessarily result in a worse service


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  3. #32
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Privatisation has been a massive success. The trains have never been more popular
    Astonishing claim. But since you said yourself you don't use trains I'll take it with a pinch of salt.
    Last edited by hibsbollah; 09-01-2019 at 08:12 PM.

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Astonishing claim. But since you said yourself you don't use trains I'll take it with a pinch of salt.
    I donít need to use them to see that their use has more than doubled since privatisation.


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  5. #34
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    I don’t need to use them to see that their use has more than doubled since privatisation.


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    I'm not sure if I'd rush to the simple cause and effect conclusion that privatisation = far better service = satisfied customers = increase in use.

    It might have had some influence, but I'd also consider other factors - a push to make driving as unappealing as possible (congestion charges etc) as being the most significant in the fact that passenger numbers are increasing in spite of a number of factors.

    For all you don't use the railway personally, would you be prepared to pay something towards them so that people who very much do something for you might be able to travel more easily to somewhere to do something that is useful to you?
    Last edited by Smartie; 09-01-2019 at 10:03 PM.

  6. #35
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    I donít need to use them to see that their use has more than doubled since privatisation.


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    People use them because they are there, not because the service is anything better than piss poor. That's not 'a success'.

  7. #36
    @hibs.net private member wpj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Itís not so much me as I can afford it but why should people living in rural areas miles away from any train service be expected to subsidise train services for people in the central belt or London?
    Privatisation has been a massive success. The trains have never been more popular. Going back to the old British Rail with run down trains, poor service and high prices is not a sensible idea.


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    Not noticed the absolute appalling services recently? Well, no as you admit to not using the rail service. Come back and comment when you do. Your opinion is irrelevant otherwise.

  8. #37
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    People use them because they are there, not because the service is anything better than piss poor. That's not 'a success'.
    They were there before privatisation but people used it a lot less.


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  9. #38
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpj View Post
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    Not noticed the absolute appalling services recently? Well, no as you admit to not using the rail service. Come back and comment when you do. Your opinion is irrelevant otherwise.
    My opinion is irrelevant even though itís been suggested I should pay more for the service? Surely if Iím being asked to pay for something Iím entitled to my opinion on it?


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  10. #39
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    They were there before privatisation but people used it a lot less.


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    Its a bit obvious but surely you've considered the context behind an increase in number of users? 1. An increase in the overall population since the mid 90s, 2. the increasing impossibility of most people to live and work in and around London. This is where most train journeys take place. Everyone i know who works in London lives outside and using mainline train services, NOT the tube, to get to work. This was not the case in the mid 90s, when people could (just about) afford to live in the city. 3. The degradation in bus services since deregulation. 4. The increase in travel to work times 5. The gentrification of towns and the growth of satellite towns/commuter belts across Britain.

    You cant just take user numbers and say rail privatisation has been a success. Have you seen customer satisfaction surveys recently? I take trains in France quite a bit, and I actively enjoy the experience. I take trains in the UK and I actively hate the experience. I think most people in my boat agree with me.

  11. #40
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    My opinion is irrelevant even though itís been suggested I should pay more for the service? Surely if Iím being asked to pay for something Iím entitled to my opinion on it?


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    Your opinion is relevant, but i don't think youre well informed about how bad it is because you dont use trains.

    You're also not taking into account the positives you'd get from better trains even as a non-user of them. There would be less road congestion. There would be less air pollution. Businesses would be more efficient. Your constantly late and grumpy coworker would be late less often and be less grumpy. Everyone benefits from better trains.

  12. #41
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I knew the SNCF/Italian trains run into Switzerland but I didn't realise there were other Swiss rail operators than SBB/CFF (apart from the myriad mountain narrow gauge ones) but they do seem to cover the vast majority of Swiss rail services.

    Anyway, the point being that while there might be the odd delay, I would be frankly astonished if a Swiss train pulled some of the stunts that seem commonplace in the UK: trains cancelled at short notice, missing out stops at stations as they go, etc.
    Without wishing to rain on the Swiss parade, I've been sat on trains to work in Zurich Station that have been cancelled as I sat there or got halfway then had to go back because of technical issues on other trains. We're talking about 3 or 4 times in 3 years though, and the point is that the density of services on the most popular routes means that you're never more than 5-10 minutes for an alternative.

    Likewise, there's a "slow" train (it's not really, but it does stop at more places) from work to home and sometimes, to make up a delay to avoid causing downstream hassle, it stops at all the stops until a hub that's halfway back to Zurich and then from there back to Zurich it's direct, which it's not meant to be, and that's only announced on the train, resulting in much tutting.

    But again, from that hub back to Zurich, stopping at all the stops that my slow train is going to miss, there's an alternative within 10 minutes.

    Also, the Swiss consider (and give an explanation and apology for) any delay over about 2 minutes - literally. When they say "your train is going to be delayed by a few minutes" they generally do mean a few minutes not "anything up to 3 hours"

    It usually takes about 3 minutes of interacting with Scotrail for my blood pressure to be higher than it ever is here (except for trains back from the mountains on a Sunday late afternoon....)
    Last edited by lyonhibs; 10-01-2019 at 02:30 PM.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
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    Without wishing to rain on the Swiss parade, I've been sat on trains to work in Zurich Station that have been cancelled as I sat there or got halfway then had to go back because of technical issues on other trains. We're talking about 3 or 4 times in 3 years though, and the point is that the density of services on the most popular routes means that you're never more than 5-10 minutes for an alternative.

    Likewise, there's a "slow" train (it's not really, but it does stop at more places) from work to home and sometimes, to make up a delay to avoid causing downstream hassle, it stops at all the stops until a hub that's halfway back to Zurich and then from there back to Zurich it's direct, which it's not meant to be, and that's only announced on the train, resulting in much tutting.

    But again, from that hub back to Zurich, stopping at all the stops that my slow train is going to miss, there's an alternative within 10 minutes.

    Also, the Swiss consider (and give an explanation and apology for) any delay over about 2 minutes - literally. When they say "your train is going to be delayed by a few minutes" they generally do mean a few minutes not "anything up to 3 hours"

    It usually takes about 3 minutes of interacting with Scotrail for my blood pressure to be higher than it ever is here (except for trains back from the mountains on a Sunday late afternoon....)
    One of the really good things about transport in Switzerland is when your train arrives at a station, the Postbus is waiting at the adjacent bus station to take passengers to the villages not served by rail.

  14. #43
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturday Boy View Post
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    One of the really good things about transport in Switzerland is when your train arrives at a station, the Postbus is waiting at the adjacent bus station to take passengers to the villages not served by rail.
    Yeah, the integration is second to none, and all valid on one ticket. No such thing as peak or off peak to worry about either (although there's talk of that changing) unless you buy a cheap ticket for a very specific train, but then obviously you know exactly which train with no grey area. All app based or on 1 card these days as well, I've not had to fanny about with the equivalent of a wee orange Scotrail ticket for the best part of a year.
    Last edited by lyonhibs; 10-01-2019 at 04:44 PM.

  15. #44
    Isn't part of the issue the disconnect between Network Rail ( owned and operated by the government) and the train companies ( owned and operated by private companies)
    Network Rail don't benefit from any inward 3rd party investment whereas rail companies benefit from customer investment along with government subsidies.

    The aging network combined with more intense usage with under investment results in delays rather than any fault with the actual rail companies?

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Isn't part of the issue the disconnect between Network Rail ( owned and operated by the government) and the train companies ( owned and operated by private companies)
    Network Rail don't benefit from any inward 3rd party investment whereas rail companies benefit from customer investment along with government subsidies.

    The aging network combined with more intense usage with under investment results in delays rather than any fault with the actual rail companies?
    The VAST majority of recent delays that jaundice the travelling publics memory is due to ScotRail (the local TOC) trialling a new way for drivers to cover routes in the central belt, a minor delay can affect crew position and this leads to a bigger knock on effect.
    However, delays are not just caused by crew/staff, there's many reasons why trains become delayed, from infrastructure failure to 3rd parties.
    For a few years now, ScotRail & Network Rail have aligned together as an "Alliance" to mitigate these delays and pull together when serious incidents occur,,,, squabbling over who is responsible for a delayed train doesn't alleviate the passengers fury.

  17. #46
    First Team Regular Johnny Clash's Avatar
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    Thereís now more public funding of the private rail system than ever happened in BRís day! Tax payers in UK are now helping to line the pockets of the privateers. We are also allowing state railways from abroad to run our services at a profit that is then used to subsidise national rail Ďback homeí. So much for national rail not being able to be successful.

    Rail Privatisation was a rip off of immense scale due purely to the political obsessions of the Conservative Party . It created more instant millionaires than the national lottery ever did. Scandalous.

    The problem with BR was always the lack of operating funds and little investment. Shamefully Labour did little better than the Tories it has to be said. . I was a guard at Waverley when I was 18 back in early 80s. We were trained to give the cheapest fare possible and got into trouble if we sold a more expensive ticket in error. It was all about giving a service to the public despite obvious constraints. The privateers donít exactly share that philosophy as their only interest is maximising profits. ££££ That also means slashing jobs, replacing people with machines and lessening safety in order to improve their financial return.

    If the private operators start seeing their profits threatened they run away and leave the state to pick up the mess. Then, as in East Coast, the state runs a better service with less complaints, improved punctuality etc only to see the political dogmatists sell off to another set of Privateers. You could not make this up!

    I now travel thousands of rail miles each year and can categorically say the sooner the entire network is brought back under public ownership and control with proper investment the better!

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