BBC Article

[H113EE5]

Hope the ‘holier the thou’, Orish from Glasgow read this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/arti...hed-immigrants

[Keith_M]

A very complimentary article.


No need for point scoring, though.

[Ringothedog]

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A very complimentary article.


No need for point scoring, though.

Why? they try to rewrite history at every opportunity. anything that shows them the truth about our origins and charitable beginnings is fine by me

[CentreLine]

A nice neet article but I have a problem with the constant use of the word “immigrant”.
These were, at at that time, British people moving from one part of Britain to another part of Britain, we would not refer to Yorkshire people moving to Edinburgh, for example, as Yorkshire immigrants. The idea that they were painted as immigrants came from the fact that these were, predominantly, unwanted Irish catholics and the poorest in society. Nobody referred to the earlier arrival of Irish people as white collar workers, particularly in the ports around mainland UK, as immigrants. Strangely enough these were Irish but not predominantly catholics.
I wish authors of newspaper articles and books would drop this myth that these people were immigrants.

[Smartie]

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A nice neet article but I have a problem with the constant use of the word “immigrant”.
These were, at at that time, British people moving from one part of Britain to another part of Britain, we would not refer to Yorkshire people moving to Edinburgh, for example, as Yorkshire immigrants. The idea that they were painted as immigrants came from the fact that these were, predominantly, unwanted Irish catholics and the poorest in society. Nobody referred to the earlier arrival of Irish people as white collar workers, particularly in the ports around mainland UK, as immigrants. Strangely enough these were Irish but not predominantly catholics.
I wish authors of newspaper articles and books would drop this myth that these people were immigrants.

Interesting point, and not one I'd really considered before.

[Iggy Pope]

Credit to the OP for spotting something worthwhile.
Hardly point scoring.
Our origin, all of our origin, is something to be revered rather than rated.

[Iggy Pope]

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A nice neet article but I have a problem with the constant use of the word “immigrant”.
These were, at at that time, British people moving from one part of Britain to another part of Britain, we would not refer to Yorkshire people moving to Edinburgh, for example, as Yorkshire immigrants. The idea that they were painted as immigrants came from the fact that these were, predominantly, unwanted Irish catholics and the poorest in society. Nobody referred to the earlier arrival of Irish people as white collar workers, particularly in the ports around mainland UK, as immigrants. Strangely enough these were Irish but not predominantly catholics.
I wish authors of newspaper articles and books would drop this myth that these people were immigrants.

Well said.
My personal take on this, (some time back) here:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?3...ore&highlight=

[hibsbollah]

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A nice neet article but I have a problem with the constant use of the word “immigrant”.
These were, at at that time, British people moving from one part of Britain to another part of Britain, we would not refer to Yorkshire people moving to Edinburgh, for example, as Yorkshire immigrants. The idea that they were painted as immigrants came from the fact that these were, predominantly, unwanted Irish catholics and the poorest in society. Nobody referred to the earlier arrival of Irish people as white collar workers, particularly in the ports around mainland UK, as immigrants. Strangely enough these were Irish but not predominantly catholics.
I wish authors of newspaper articles and books would drop this myth that these people were immigrants.

It depends whether you take a technical or practical interpretation of the word 'immigrant'. When you consider that the people involved left a distinct culture behind, a distinct language behind, crossed a sea to reach a land where they were made to feel alien, that's pretty much the practical definition of immigrant.

Where the administrative centre of power sat in their original homeland, is, to me at least, a bit of a technicality.

[Green_one]

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Hope the ‘holier the thou’, Orish from Glasgow read this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/arti...hed-immigrants

Sorry about this but it annoys me how people constantly get the founders name wrong - its HannAn not HannOn. Maybe its the canon that misleads folk but its sloppy by the BBC.

[hibsbollah]

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Well said.
My personal take on this, (some time back) here:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?3...ore&highlight=

I can't remember reading that before. I attended South Bridge primary in the 1970s, the proddy school just over the wall from St Pats. So I may have played against you in the notorious prods v papes Friday dinnertime games

[Lendo]

Enjoyed that. Shame the article was so short.

[Iggy Pope]

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I can't remember reading that before. I attended South Bridge primary in the 1970s, the proddy school just over the wall from St Pats. So I may have played against you in the notorious prods v papes Friday dinnertime games

You are younger than me and your big brother if you have one will bear the scars.
Lovely to think you were on the other side of that wall my brother.

[Pretty Boy]

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It depends whether you take a technical or practical interpretation of the word 'immigrant'. When you consider that the people involved left a distinct culture behind, a distinct language behind, crossed a sea to reach a land where they were made to feel alien, that's pretty much the practical definition of immigrant.

Where the administrative centre of power sat in their original homeland, is, to me at least, a bit of a technicality.

Yep I think there has to be a broadening of the definition to reflect the time.

The Irish catholic population in Scotland in the 19th century arrived in a country in which the presbyterian belief system was truly dominant. It was a time where there would still be living memory of Catholics and Episcopalians being imprisoned under various interpretations of blasphemy and even witchcraft laws.

Whilst 'immigrant' may be an inexact term it's probably more reflective of the reasons for the migration, the cultural differences, the hostility faced and the enclosed communities the Irish lived in than a lot of alternatives that could be used. I don't view it's usage now as a perjorative term, if anything I find it instills a little bit of pride.

[hibsbollah]

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You are younger than me and your big brother if you have one will bear the scars.
Lovely to think you were on the other side of that wall my brother.

Crazy that degree of segregation was going on in the 70s. When they opened the gates for our high noon grudge match/rammy/mass pagger it was all a bit like the 1917 Christmas Tommies krauts game at the Somme

[gillythehibby]

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Well said.
My personal take on this, (some time back) here:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?3...ore&highlight=

I missed your original article but enjoyed it. There's lots of similarities between us. My Great Grandad came over from RossCommon and settled in "Little Ireland". The links to St Pat's, the Irish families and school friends were all my experiences. I was married in St Pat's and went to HolyRood. I grew up in the Inch which was full of Irish families also. I'm just happy my whole family love the Hibs 👍🇳🇬

[Iggy Pope]

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Crazy that degree of segregation was going on in the 70s. When they opened the gates for our high noon grudge match/rammy/mass pagger it was all a bit like the 1917 Christmas Tommies krauts game at the Somme

Ah. But did you get a ‘halfy’ on the 17th?

[Iggy Pope]

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I missed your original article but enjoyed it. There's lots of similarities between us. My Great Grandad came over from RossCommon and settled in "Little Ireland". The links to St Pat's, the Irish families and school friends were all my experiences. I was married in St Pat's and went to HolyRood. I grew up in the Inch which was full of Irish families also. I'm just happy my whole family love the Hibs 👍🇳🇬

[jacomo]

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A very complimentary article.


No need for point scoring, though.

Not content with mythologising their own club, Celtc folk seem keen to tell the Hibs story to their own liking too... usually by denigrating us. So I think it’s more than fair enough to set the record straight.

“If you know your history...”

“I do, aye. But you don’t.”

[CentreLine]

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It depends whether you take a technical or practical interpretation of the word 'immigrant'. When you consider that the people involved left a distinct culture behind, a distinct language behind, crossed a sea to reach a land where they were made to feel alien, that's pretty much the practical definition of immigrant.

Where the administrative centre of power sat in their original homeland, is, to me at least, a bit of a technicality.

All valid points, especially at the time and Pretty Boy’s post too. What I am conscious of is that it was so easy to denigrate these people by referring to them as immigrants. It immediately said they did not belong here and made it easy to justify ill treatment and shunning them. Even in today’s society that word “immigrant” dehumanises people and allows for them to be seen as different, not belonging. Nobody EVER refers to these downtrodden people coming from the island of Ireland as British but that is what they were at the time, regardless of whether they wanted to be. If only we could lose the word in supposedly well constructed and researched journalism we would be that step closer to losing the sectarian division IMO.

[CMurdoch]

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Well said.
My personal take on this, (some time back) here:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?3...ore&highlight=

I didn't see that 1st time around.
Beautifully written piece Iggy

[CMurdoch]

Doubler

[The Harp Awakes]

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Hope the ‘holier the thou’, Orish from Glasgow read this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/arti...hed-immigrants

Thanks for sharing mate.

We are a unique Club and one to admire. Our history is a story in itself.

Hibernian Forever.

[Brizo]

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I missed your original article but enjoyed it. There's lots of similarities between us. My Great Grandad came over from RossCommon and settled in "Little Ireland". The links to St Pat's, the Irish families and school friends were all my experiences. I was married in St Pat's and went to HolyRood. I grew up in the Inch which was full of Irish families also. I'm just happy my whole family love the Hibs 👍🇳🇬

Made same journey from Southside to the Inch

When I was growing up there it was nearly all Hibs or lesser greens. Gilmerton was the same. Never up there now but wonder if theres still a big Hibs presence ?

[hibsbollah]

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All valid points, especially at the time and Pretty Boy’s post too. What I am conscious of is that it was so easy to denigrate these people by referring to them as immigrants. It immediately said they did not belong here and made it easy to justify ill treatment and shunning them. Even in today’s society that word “immigrant” dehumanises people and allows for them to be seen as different, not belonging. Nobody EVER refers to these downtrodden people coming from the island of Ireland as British but that is what they were at the time, regardless of whether they wanted to be. If only we could lose the word in supposedly well constructed and researched journalism we would be that step closer to losing the sectarian division IMO.

I'm glad you think so. Personally I don't have any negative thoughts when I hear the word immigrant, but I suppose the gutter press in this country and others around the world have been whipping up this sort of negativity so it is an issue.

[CentreLine]

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I'm glad you think so. Personally I don't have any negative thoughts when I hear the word immigrant, but I suppose the gutter press in this country and others around the world have been whipping up this sort of negativity so it is an issue.

Yes. You just have to look at the way it is used in Brexit arguments or in whipping up right wing elements in all parts of society. Nothing has changed in that respect for a very long time. All of which is why I believe that it is always in the forefront of presentation, written and spoken, when one group in society want to distance themselves from another, just as one part of Britain wanted to do from another part of Britain in the late 19th and in to the 20th century. The, largely very poor and largely catholic, didn’t fit the idle of the gentile, dominant British society, therefore they didn’t belong. They had to be “immigrants”. Our lazy authors of today fail to recognise that. You got to maintain the “us and them”.

[Greenbeard]

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Ah. But did you get a ‘halfy’ on the 17th?

Haven't heard that term for yonks. Remember the wholesale playground "halfy" chants when lining up after lunchtime to go back into school - at even the slightest sign of a bit of sleet.

[CLASS OF 72 -73]

Nice wee feature on the First Greens!

[monktonharp]

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A nice neet article but I have a problem with the constant use of the word “immigrant”.
These were, at at that time, British people moving from one part of Britain to another part of Britain, we would not refer to Yorkshire people moving to Edinburgh, for example, as Yorkshire immigrants. The idea that they were painted as immigrants came from the fact that these were, predominantly, unwanted Irish catholics and the poorest in society. Nobody referred to the earlier arrival of Irish people as white collar workers, particularly in the ports around mainland UK, as immigrants. Strangely enough these were Irish but not predominantly catholics.
I wish authors of newspaper articles and books would drop this myth that these people were immigrants.

an uninteresting note from you. And, another attempt at point scoring. this has the makings of a rerr aul' flag debate. they were not intrinsically "british" were they? from a land occupied by clonialists, who tried there very baddest to keep it that way

[Moulin Yarns]

It's on bbc2 next Tuesday. Part of the celebrity antiques road trip.

[CentreLine]

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an uninteresting note from you. And, another attempt at point scoring. this has the makings of a rerr aul' flag debate. they were not intrinsically "british" were they? from a land occupied by clonialists, who tried there very baddest to keep it that way

Absolutely no points scoring involved. Not really sure where you get that idea from. In fact I am certain there are very few Irish catholic people that would wish to acknowledge that they were British. Ireland was firmly part of Britain at the time, not a colony by any means. The way it became so is certainly open to historical scrutiny but the first implantation and domination was 13th century, the same period that brought Wales under English rule. This was not the period of colonialism as most would understand it.

Far from points scoring, I firmly believe that it is lazy authorship that labels British people who migrate from one to another part of the same country as immigrants. I also firmly believe that there is an agenda for doing so.