Question from a non-football fan

**~~G B Young~~** · 03-09-2018 01:54 PM

While having a moan over the weekend about the Livi defeat I mentioned how frustrating it was to be drawing 1-1 with them, but how frustration turned to fury when we actually ended up losing.

One of our group, who has never had the slightest interest in football but has a penchant for a quirky question, then asked me whether I'd be a happier person in general if my team drew every game (ie never won, but never lost either) rather than put myself through the emotional highs and lows of victory and defeat.

Is there something to be said for that? Granted, your team would never achieve much in the league by drawing every game but if you're a fan who attends every game home and away you'd never have that awful post-match gloom of defeat and arguably you'd be a more balanced, less tortured person! And yes, there are many ways to end up drawing a game (from stunning comeback to conceding an agonising last-gasp equaliser), but I guess what I'm trying to ask in a long winded way is this: Is NOT LOSING arguably more important for the average football fan in the grand scheme of things than winning?

Or to put it another way, if you attended all 38 of Hibs' league games this season and we won 19 and lost 19 we'd have 57 points as opposed to the 38 we'd achieve by drawing every game, but would you enjoy the season more overall?

Don't ask me how it would work with the cup games, though I guess it would ultimately involve penalty shoot-outs every time!

All a bit of ramble I know, but it's one to while away a soggy Monday with...

**~~calumhibee1~~** · 03-09-2018 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by G B Young

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While having a moan over the weekend about the Livi defeat I mentioned how frustrating it was to be drawing 1-1 with them, but how frustration turned to fury when we actually ended up losing.

One of our group, who has never had the slightest interest in football but has a penchant for a quirky question, then asked me whether I'd be a happier person in general if my team drew every game (ie never won, but never lost either) rather than put myself through the emotional highs and lows of victory and defeat.

Is there something to be said for that? Granted, your team would never achieve much in the league by drawing every game but if you're a fan who attends every game home and away you'd never have that awful post-match gloom of defeat and arguably you'd be a more balanced, less tortured person! And yes, there are many ways to end up drawing a game (from stunning comeback to conceding an agonising last-gasp equaliser), but I guess what I'm trying to ask in a long winded way is this: Is NOT LOSING arguably more important for the average football fan in the grand scheme of things than winning?

Or to put it another way, if you attended all 36 of Hibs' league games this season and we won 18 and lost 18 we'd have 54 points as opposed to the 36 we'd achieve by drawing every game, but would you enjoy the season more overall?

Don't ask me how it would work with the cup games, though I guess it would ultimately involve penalty shoot-outs every time!

All a bit of ramble I know, but it's one to while away a soggy Monday with...

Never seeing your team win sounds absolutely horrendous.

***BILLYHIBS*** · 03-09-2018 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

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Never seeing your team win sounds absolutely horrendous.

Tell me about it! I survived the Bertie Auld and Alex Miller years where played 36 36 points was their safety target for the season. Then there was Bobby ( if you want entertainment go to the cinema) Williamson. That was why drink was invented!

**jakedance** · 03-09-2018 02:21 PM

It’s kind of a stupid question because, obviously, no, to see your team never win or lose would be very boring. A more valid question for some people would be whether being a football supporter brings them any happiness. I’ve seen folk booing players and going radge when we’re two nil up. Some people need a sense of perspective and a new hobby because following Hibs doesn’t seem to be doing them any good.

**Time For Heroes** · 03-09-2018 02:25 PM

Sir David Gray.

***Kato*** · 03-09-2018 02:35 PM

It's sport, if you hang all your emotions onto it your a sad case, win or lose.

**green with envy** · 03-09-2018 02:57 PM

The kind of daft question that right enough, would no doubt come from a non football fan.

**~~G B Young~~** · 03-09-2018 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

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Tell me about it! I survived the Bertie Auld and Alex Miller years where played 36 36 points was their safety target for the season. Then there was Bobby ( if you want entertainment go to the cinema) Williamson. That was why drink was invented!

You're right about Bertie. I just had a look at the league table from 1981-82, our first season back in the top flight after relegation and we did actually achieve 36 points from 36 games!

***nonshinyfinish*** · 03-09-2018 03:16 PM

Two things:

Absolutely not, as mentioned above it would be horrendous never seeing your team win, and it’s the lows that make you truly appreciate the highs.

Drawing every game would regularly see you in the mix for relegation.

**~~G B Young~~** · 03-09-2018 03:24 PM

I'm sure there have been plenty of games where we've asked, or been asked beforehand, would you take a draw? And responded 'yes' on a lot of those occasions.

***PatHead*** · 03-09-2018 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

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Tell me about it! I survived the Bertie Auld and Alex Miller years where played 36 36 points was their safety target for the season. Then there was Bobby ( if you want entertainment go to the cinema) Williamson. That was why drink was invented!

I agree that the football under Bobby Williamson wasn’t the best but to be fair to him he was misquoted by you there. He actually said, after a real howler of a game, if you want guaranteed entertainment go to the cinema. Even nowadays under NL we are not always guaranteed entertainment as Saturday proved to anyone there.

***BILLYHIBS*** · 03-09-2018 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by G B Young

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I'm sure there have been plenty of games where we've asked, or been asked beforehand, would you take a draw? And responded 'yes' on a lot of those occasions.

Yip! Asked my laddie the same question last week against Aberdeen wi ten minutes to go. He almost took my hand off!

**~~Bangkok Hibby~~** · 03-09-2018 04:03 PM

A well balanced human being will derive joy from their team winning and short term frustration or utter misery, depending on the importance of the game, from losing. Fans of all colours go through this emotional roller coaster year after year. Utter *****wits however can't handle the downside and drink themselves into oblivion and/or beat their wives senseless. There's no "one size fits all" answer to your question.

**Lago** · 03-09-2018 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

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Tell me about it! I survived the Bertie Auld and Alex Miller years where played 36 36 points was their safety target for the season. Then there was Bobby ( if you want entertainment go to the cinema) Williamson. That was why drink was invented!

You forgot helicopter Duffy

**MWHIBBIES** · 03-09-2018 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kato

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It's sport, if you hang all your emotions onto it your a sad case, win or lose.

Or perhaps you just have different views on things and find different things important?

**hibbycraig** · 03-09-2018 05:17 PM

Not for me. I'd rather lose 2 and win 1 than draw 3! Surely the excitement and joy from winning outweighs the losing?

***BILLYHIBS*** · 03-09-2018 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Lago

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You forgot helicopter Duffy

No remembered him but started to get weird flashbacks of Calderwood and Butcher! 😬

**~~calumhibee1~~** · 03-09-2018 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by hibbycraig

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Not for me. I'd rather lose 2 and win 1 than draw 3! Surely the excitement and joy from winning outweighs the losing?

Likewise. Draws are pish unless you snatch it from the jaws of defeat in a big game.

**ancient hibee** · 03-09-2018 05:27 PM

A season I often remember is 1959/60

W 14
D 7
L 13

Pts 35 Finished 7th

However goals for 106
against 85

Talk about ups and down-but outstanding entertainment.

***BILLYHIBS*** · 03-09-2018 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

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Likewise. Draws are pish unless you snatch it from the jaws of defeat in a big game.

Draws were the reason Soccer never took off in the US in the early days as the Americans could not comprehend the concept of no winner or loser being a result!

***Viva_Palmeiras*** · 03-09-2018 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by G B Young

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While having a moan over the weekend about the Livi defeat I mentioned how frustrating it was to be drawing 1-1 with them, but how frustration turned to fury when we actually ended up losing.

One of our group, who has never had the slightest interest in football but has a penchant for a quirky question, then asked me whether I'd be a happier person in general if my team drew every game (ie never won, but never lost either) rather than put myself through the emotional highs and lows of victory and defeat.

Is there something to be said for that? Granted, your team would never achieve much in the league by drawing every game but if you're a fan who attends every game home and away you'd never have that awful post-match gloom of defeat and arguably you'd be a more balanced, less tortured person! And yes, there are many ways to end up drawing a game (from stunning comeback to conceding an agonising last-gasp equaliser), but I guess what I'm trying to ask in a long winded way is this: Is NOT LOSING arguably more important for the average football fan in the grand scheme of things than winning?

Or to put it another way, if you attended all 38 of Hibs' league games this season and we won 19 and lost 19 we'd have 57 points as opposed to the 38 we'd achieve by drawing every game, but would you enjoy the season more overall?

Don't ask me how it would work with the cup games, though I guess it would ultimately involve penalty shoot-outs every time!

All a bit of ramble I know, but it's one to while away a soggy Monday with...

“If you greet victory and defeat as the same imposters
but you’d always be happier with a draw...
then you’ll be a Jambo my son”
- Rudyard Kipling (made exceedingly good cakes)

**Joe6-2** · 03-09-2018 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by VivaPalmeiras

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“If you greet victory and defeat as the same imposters
but you’d always be happier with a draw...
then you’ll be a Jambo my son”
- Rudyard Kipling (made exceedingly good cakes)

He would have went down a storm at their cake bakes

**~~calumhibee1~~** · 03-09-2018 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

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Draws were the reason Soccer never took off in the US in the early days as the Americans could not comprehend the concept of no winner or loser being a result!

The MLS shootout videos on YouTube from the 90s are amazing. Basically a half time challenge to decide who gets all 3 points in a league game

***BILLYHIBS*** · 03-09-2018 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

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The MLS shootout videos on YouTube from the 90s are amazing. Basically a half time challenge to decide who gets all 3 points in a league game

Half time ?

***proud_and_green*** · 03-09-2018 06:49 PM

I have to say I think it is an interesting philosophical question with parallels in life as most sport does.

I would think the way to be more certain of not losing would be to try to win. This is a central tenet of military strategy; attack being the best form of defence and defence, whilst could be seen as a way of trying not to lose, is more commonly a way of allowing you to create the conditions and freedom of manoeuvre in order to win. And a static defence, ignoring one of the principles of defence 'an offensive spirit', would be more likely to result in defeat rather than simply not losing.

A permanent state of parity would be incredibly boring and for me would also hint at a corrupt game, because in order to be sure of the draw would need the other side not to threaten as well.

Perhaps the question could also be put another way, if you could be guaranteed to win all the time, would you take it? Personally, I wouldn't, victory is all the sweeter if it means something and if defeat has been experienced. For example, our Scottish Cup win in 2016 will never be matched because of the ridiculously long time since the previous one. Does it really mean anything for Celtic to win the league year in year out? Look how many of their fans disappear immediately after the whistle of a cup final they have won.

***Keith_M*** · 03-09-2018 07:03 PM

This takes me back to the Bertie Auld era.

***Keith_M*** · 03-09-2018 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

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The MLS shootout videos on YouTube from the 90s are amazing. Basically a half time challenge to decide who gets all 3 points in a league game

Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

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Half time ?

Sounds like a great idea for all our early leavers...

**~~calumhibee1~~** · 03-09-2018 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS

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Half time ?

It was at full time but it was like the half time challenge we do. Run with the ball from the halfway line and try and beat the keeper, I’m on my phone or I’d put up a link!

***Kato*** · 03-09-2018 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

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Or perhaps you just have different views on things and find different things important?

Hibs are very important to me, but sport is a very small part of life itself.

***BILLYHIBS*** · 03-09-2018 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by calumhibee1

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It was at full time but it was like the half time challenge we do. Run with the ball from the halfway line and try and beat the keeper, I’m on my phone or I’d put up a link!

Aye thought as much but no a thirty five stone man in a HIBS strip bearing down on a trembling wee laddie wi a ba at his feet wi ten seconds to score 😂

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