Is the derby a hindrance to Hibs and Hearts' ambitions?

[G B Young]

While the derby is the fixture that gets fans of the Edinburgh clubs most worked up, would it be fair to say it can actually hinder the ambitions of both clubs?

The fixture brings with it so much parochial (if that's the right word) baggage that IMHO it can be disruptive presence on the fixture list. Had, say, Motherwell pipped Hearts for that final top six place I think it's fair to say we wouldn't have faced a side on Wednesday night that was hell bent on stopping us finishing second at all costs. On paper, Hearts are by some distance the weakest side in the top six and had lost all three of their post-split fixtures prior to raising their game to fever pitch when Hibs came calling. It's noteable too, that since Hibs started to dominate the fixture that Hearts have been on something of slide. Look back at the history of the fixture over the last half century and the team which dominates the derby is the one which by and large finishes higher in the league.

Of course it can never be regarded as 'just another game'. The build-up and the fallout are like no other, but I wonder if there's an over-obsession with it, in particular at Hearts. The build-up and the fallout are certainly like no other fixture. Aberdeen, by contrast, have their city to themselves and perhaps that plays a part in their consistency (certainly in recent seasons).

[Carheenlea]

I hate Hearts - hate the club and their moronic fans, but having a close city rivalry like ours is all the better for both clubs. Certainly wouldn’t agree it’s a hinderance.

[cleanyman]

No

[Diclonius]

Not particularly. If a side can get a consistent run of dominance going in the derby, it brings with it confidence that allows them to perform in other fixtures. During their dominance in the early part of this decade Hearts routinely finished 3rd or close to it. Our recent run of results was in no small part down to the confidence brought from the 2-0 win.

Tin hat on here, but beating them for me is MORE important than finishing high up in the league. Absolutely nothing compares to a derby win, and doing it regularly brings far more joy than finishing 3rd. I'm also of the mind that regular success in derbies WILL bring increased confidence and better performance in subsequent fixtures.

I'd rather take an unbeaten season against them and a mediocre finish than a European spot and no wins. Case in point: 2009-10 vs 2012-13. In the former we finished 4th, qualified for Europe and didn't beat them. In the latter we finished 7th and went undefeated against them in five games. I know which season I enjoyed more.

[heid the baw]

Derby brings in great revenue. There is never a lot between the teams and home advantage reflects this.
Of course Hibs and Hearts will raise their game more than Motherwell ect if it means spoiling the others chances. We expect no less.
Equally if the last derby had been at ER we would not have lost.
The post split fixtures fell nicely for Aberdeen as they got us and Sevco at home. Our away trips were to grounds where we have struggled lately to win. We lost the derby by the margin of a poorly defended set piece. Both teams were terrible as is the case in 90% of Edinburgh derbies.
Great thing about derbies is that there will be an opportunity to win one in a matter of months.

[MrSmith]

It would be much better if only played twice a season.

[Ozyhibby]

No. It’s a great fixture.


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[JeMeSouviens]

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It would be much better if only played twice a season.

was just about to say that.

The other problem is Tiny's smallness means that unless the quality gap between the teams is huge (see Hearts vs Celtc) they (or we but we don't seem to do it much) can always resort to kicking their way to competitiveness. And Scottish refs are conditioned to apply different rules to the fixture because apparently it's "common sense" that players should be allowed to kick lumps out of one another in derby games.

[ian cruise]

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was just about to say that.

The other problem is Tiny's smallness means that unless the quality gap between the teams is huge (see Hearts vs Celtc) they (or we but we don't seem to do it much) can always resort to kicking their way to competitiveness. And Scottish refs are conditioned to apply different rules to the fixture because apparently it's "common sense" that players should be allowed to kick lumps out of one another in derby games.

We've known about the size of Hearts pitch since the start of the season, we've seen how they play football all season. We should have been prepared for both of those things, but for whatever reason we weren't.

The derby is in noway a hindrance, outside of the old firm every other Scottish club would love a derby like 9urs,only adds to the game and the excitement of the season.

[Elephant Stone]

I think it would be **** not having a same city rival, rivalries are one of the best things about football.

[BILLYHIBS]

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While the derby is the fixture that gets fans of the Edinburgh clubs most worked up, would it be fair to say it can actually hinder the ambitions of both clubs?

The fixture brings with it so much parochial (if that's the right word) baggage that IMHO it can be disruptive presence on the fixture list. Had, say, Motherwell pipped Hearts for that final top six place I think it's fair to say we wouldn't have faced a side on Wednesday night that was hell bent on stopping us finishing second at all costs. On paper, Hearts are by some distance the weakest side in the top six and had lost all three of their post-split fixtures prior to raising their game to fever pitch when Hibs came calling. It's noteable too, that since Hibs started to dominate the fixture that Hearts have been on something of slide. Look back at the history of the fixture over the last half century and the team which dominates the derby is the one which by and large finishes higher in the league.

Of course it can never be regarded as 'just another game'. The build-up and the fallout are like no other, but I wonder if there's an over-obsession with it, in particular at Hearts. The build-up and the fallout are certainly like no other fixture. Aberdeen, by contrast, have their city to themselves and perhaps that plays a part in their consistency (certainly in recent seasons).

Get on wi it ya big Jessie ! Bring it on. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.Same goes to Lenny!!

[Bishop Hibee]

We should relish the derbies. Packed stadiums, great atmosphere. There’s no chance either Hibs or Hearts will agree to two derbies instead of four. It would hinder both clubs.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Nobody's suggesting "yeah if we could get rid of it we would", but in terms of whether it takes some fans' eye off the ball? Unquestionably, it does.

What would you rather we did next season, won all 4 derbies or won a trophy/reached the Europa League group stages?

If you answer the former, I fear you care more about beating Hearts than you do about Hibs winning.

[Swedish hibee]

No. As a sportsman, you have to play teams that challenge you mentally- derby games are exactly that. Football skills come second. Obviously!

[Clerie Green]

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Nobody's suggesting "yeah if we could get rid of it we would", but in terms of whether it takes some fans' eye off the ball? Unquestionably, it does.

What would you rather we did next season, won all 4 derbies or won a trophy/reached the Europa League group stages?

If you answer the former, I fear you care more about beating Hearts than you do about Hibs winning.

You therefore have every right to be “ frightened “

[Sas_The_Hibby]

The derby makes life much more interesting for fans but probably doesn't help either of us achieve at a higher level, e.g. challenging for the league.

At a historical level, if there had only ever been one major club in Edinburgh I would expect that club to have regularly mounted a real challenge to the Bigot Brothers. However, for reasons we all know, to do with loyalties, tradition and history, you couldn't create that situation now.

In today's situation, I sometimes wonder if fans of both clubs are too satisfied with finishing above their city rivals. Aberdeen don't have that rivalry and, it could be argued, measure themselves more by how they're doing against Celtic and Rangers (not very well this season, as it turns out!).

However, if you're not winning trophies regularly then perhaps winning a derby is the next best thing - and Aberdeen might get Cove Rangers in the Cup next year.......

[G B Young]

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It would be much better if only played twice a season.

Agreed.

[A Hi-Bee]

We should take them over and liquidate them.

[NAE NOOKIE]

It is a hindrance insomuch as it gives us and Hearts a fixture which doesn't always go to form and will always be tougher than a normal game ... the likes of Aberdeen and Motherwell for example don't have that problem. As another poster said, if Hearts hadn't made the top 6 a game away to Motherwell would have been far more likely to see us still in with a chance of 2nd this Sunday than a game away to Hearts, who clearly upped their game for us compared to their tepid effort in their previous top 6 matches.

Having said that ..... Having a proper derby rivalry is one of the best parts of being a football fan, when you look around Europe there are surprisingly few genuine city derby matches if you take huge cities like London, Athens or Istanbul out of the equation. There are many manufactured ones like Aberdeen v Dundee Utd, Man Utd v Liverpool or Real Madrid v Barcelona ..... but sticking tags like 'New firm derby' or 'El Classico' onto a game doesn't make it a genuine derby no matter how big the clubs involved are or how much they hate each other.

Hibs v Hearts is a genuine derby match and one of the oldest in the world, as I said they are surprisingly rare in the world of football and therefor something we should treasure ... despising Heart of Midlowthian is a real pleasure, puddle drinking, self obsessed, Rover driving, privet hedge cutting, forelock tugging roasters that they are ....... I wouldn't want to lose that for the world.

[wookie70]

It's a fixture I look forward to more than any other. No idea why as even with the level playing field they seem to have the hex on us and continue to get results in games they have no right to come away with anything. Difficult to say it hinders them considering their record but although we have struggled in the fixture during my 40 odd years as a Hibee I'd far rather have Derbies than not having a true rival like Aberdeen.

[Pagan Hibernia]

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What would you rather we did next season, won all 4 derbies or won a trophy/reached the Europa League group stages?

If you answer the former, I fear you care more about beating Hearts than you do about Hibs winning.

ive never understood why some people think we should have to choose one or the other. I want to win trophies AND crush hearts four (preferably five) times a season. Being desperate to do one doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not arsed about the other

[HFC_NYC]

I will say this, the Derby is hellish for my health. Before kickoff, I have a sick feeling in my stomach. During the game, my emotions (both good and bad) rise to the surface. And then after the game, I'm either absolutely buzzing or as happened on Wednesday, I'm left in a cloud of depression. Aside from cup finals, no other game comes close to having this effect on me.

[Kavinho]

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While the derby is the fixture that gets fans of the Edinburgh clubs most worked up, would it be fair to say it can actually hinder the ambitions of both clubs?

The fixture brings with it so much parochial (if that's the right word) baggage that IMHO it can be disruptive presence on the fixture list. Had, say, Motherwell pipped Hearts for that final top six place I think it's fair to say we wouldn't have faced a side on Wednesday night that was hell bent on stopping us finishing second at all costs. On paper, Hearts are by some distance the weakest side in the top six and had lost all three of their post-split fixtures prior to raising their game to fever pitch when Hibs came calling. It's noteable too, that since Hibs started to dominate the fixture that Hearts have been on something of slide. Look back at the history of the fixture over the last half century and the team which dominates the derby is the one which by and large finishes higher in the league.

Of course it can never be regarded as 'just another game'. The build-up and the fallout are like no other, but I wonder if there's an over-obsession with it, in particular at Hearts. The build-up and the fallout are certainly like no other fixture. Aberdeen, by contrast, have their city to themselves and perhaps that plays a part in their consistency (certainly in recent seasons).

With due respect I think this is a ridiculous post/ question.

[Sammy7nil]

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While the derby is the fixture that gets fans of the Edinburgh clubs most worked up, would it be fair to say it can actually hinder the ambitions of both clubs?

The fixture brings with it so much parochial (if that's the right word) baggage that IMHO it can be disruptive presence on the fixture list. Had, say, Motherwell pipped Hearts for that final top six place I think it's fair to say we wouldn't have faced a side on Wednesday night that was hell bent on stopping us finishing second at all costs. On paper, Hearts are by some distance the weakest side in the top six and had lost all three of their post-split fixtures prior to raising their game to fever pitch when Hibs came calling. It's noteable too, that since Hibs started to dominate the fixture that Hearts have been on something of slide. Look back at the history of the fixture over the last half century and the team which dominates the derby is the one which by and large finishes higher in the league.

Of course it can never be regarded as 'just another game'. The build-up and the fallout are like no other, but I wonder if there's an over-obsession with it, in particular at Hearts. The build-up and the fallout are certainly like no other fixture. Aberdeen, by contrast, have their city to themselves and perhaps that plays a part in their consistency (certainly in recent seasons).

It is also fair to say 17000 would not ha e turned up and the TV cameras may have swerved it.

[IberianHibernian]

Most of the build up is from younger fans who live in or around Edinburgh . Players , managers and club directors are aware of local rivalry but have other things on their minds too . Beating Aberdeen last week was more important for us than winning at Tynecastle on Wednesday for example . We achieved neither but first would have meant more than beating Hearts . I understand it`s different for some people who live in Edinburgh than for Hibs fans like me that know no Hearts fans and have no interest in Hearts except when they play us but I`d say in general that interest in Derby is more a sign that things are going badly eg Hearts obsessed with winning or at least not losing on Wednesday after falling well behind top teams in league .

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Most of the build up is from younger fans who live in or around Edinburgh . Players , managers and club directors are aware of local rivalry but have other things on their minds too . Beating Aberdeen last week was more important for us than winning at Tynecastle on Wednesday for example . We achieved neither but first would have meant more than beating Hearts . I understand it`s different for some people who live in Edinburgh than for Hibs fans like me that know no Hearts fans and have no interest in Hearts except when they play us but I`d say in general that interest in Derby is more a sign that things are going badly eg Hearts obsessed with winning or at least not losing on Wednesday after falling well behind top teams in league .

whether we like it or not hearts will always be a huge game for us because our record against them in the past is so bad. I reckon there’s a generation of Hibs fans who are scarred by derby results from the 80s, 90s and 00s. So it doesn’t matter how much better we are than them (and we are miles ahead of them at the moment even if we didn’t show it on Wednesday) the derby feels like an itch that we have to scratch.

[jacomo]

Mercer thought a single city club would be more successful but it doesn’t always work like that.

Aberdeen had a great spell in the 1980s but so did the Arabs. Scotland’s most successful clubs shared a city.

It’s the same story elsewhere. Leeds, Newcastle just two clubs that own their cities but underachieve.

Derby rivalries make football fun and can drive clubs on.

[Onion]

Hearts FC ambition IS to play and beat Hibs. Nothing else matters to them. Without us, they don't exist. Their crowds would be down to 2 or 3 thousand.

[Mantis Toboggan]

The funniest thing for me is both us and the jambos claiming that the other side is obsessed with the other.
Taking the piss out of the other side is pretty much the whole point of a local football rivalry.
Like many people I have loads of jambo mates. I don't hate them. I probably hate levein. I definitely hate Wallace Mercer.
The idea that wanting to be top dog in a city is a hindrance doesn't make much sense to me. Unless you achieve it in the way that Hearts did the other night, I.e. small time hacking tactics. Which is a dead end really. You can't hack your way to 3rd or 4th in the league

[Greenfly]

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We should take them over and liquidate them.

I thought that was called a merger.