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Thread: Catalonia

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    When Spain put it in its Constitution...... someone will tell us when that was, presumably after the Civil War.?

    Right now, though, Spain are piling one moral injustice on top of another

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    1978. If Catalans or Basques or anyone else had tried to get a right to secession into that constitution, the army would have (re)taken over Spain tout de suite.


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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    1978. If Catalans or Basques or anyone else had tried to get a right to secession into that constitution, the army would have (re)taken over Spain tout de suite.
    Ta. Post-Franco then... makes sense.

    His spirit still stalks the land, it seems.

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  4. #153
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    1978. If Catalans or Basques or anyone else had tried to get a right to secession into that constitution, the army would have (re)taken over Spain tout de suite.
    You don't need a right of secession in your constitution - though I guess it would help. We had neither a constitution nor a right of secession and we've still managed three referendums. What you do need is politicians with some common sense. I'd suggest neither Catalonia nor Spain has these at the minute.

  5. #154
    First Team Regular OxoHibby's Avatar
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    Spain currently looking like Franco has been reincarnated

  6. #155
    It's all getting a bit 1930s isn't it.

    An increasingly destabilised Europe, a United Nations that seems somewhat toothless, posturing and flexing of military muscle in the Far East, ideologically opposed superpowers eyeing each other suspiciously, fighting on the streets of Spain and the infinite struggles in the Middle East and North Africa.

    I've argued in recent years that the increasing politicisation of the poppy was due to the decreased number of 1st hand accounts of the World Wars available to the current generations in power. People have been allowed to begin to forget the horrors of those wars and what was once a quiet, sensitive act of rememberance has, in my opinion, taken a slightly sinister turn. I can't help but think the same issue is clouding some of the actions and reactions we are seeing in the geopolitical sphere now. We are at a crossroads and decisions made now will determine what kind of world we have left in a generation. I'm not hopeful, another global conflict would be a fitting last hurrah for the boomers generation of politician.
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  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    It's all getting a bit 1930s isn't it.

    An increasingly destabilised Europe, a United Nations that seems somewhat toothless, posturing and flexing of military muscle in the Far East, ideologically opposed superpowers eyeing each other suspiciously, fighting on the streets of Spain and the infinite struggles in the Middle East and North Africa.

    I've argued in recent years that the increasing politicisation of the poppy was due to the decreased number of 1st hand accounts of the World Wars available to the current generations in power. People have been allowed to begin to forget the horrors of those wars and what was once a quiet, sensitive act of rememberance has, in my opinion, taken a slightly sinister turn. I can't help but think the same issue is clouding some of the actions and reactions we are seeing in the geopolitical sphere now. We are at a crossroads and decisions made now will determine what kind of world we have left in a generation. I'm not hopeful, another global conflict would be a fitting last hurrah for the boomers generation of politician.

    I could not agree more.

    I think I quoted elsewhere the aphorism that 'those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it'.

  8. #157
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    I don't understand why the Spanish government didn't simply wait for the polls to close then seize the ballot boxes and close down the counts.

    Getting physical with the public has made them look like they're in the wrong, regardless the legality of the referendum.

  9. #158
    Rajoy says that a majority of people didn't vote today.

    Job done then, boys.

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  10. #159
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Rajoy says that a majority of people didn't vote today.

    Job done then, boys.

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    Right enough, it’s hard to vote with a split skull in a sacked polling station.

    J

  11. #160
    Far too early to say what impact today`s events will have on Catalonia and rest of Europe . Propaganda war at least outside Spain seems to have been won by independence supporters with politicians very careful to seem reasonable with foreign press but comments here about return of Franco etc are just ridiculous and in no way reflect modern Spain whatever lazy British journalists like to say . I don`t know enough about Catalonia to know if they have a good cause for independence but a common opinion in Spain including Catalonia is that the independence movement has been much more sophisticated than other independence movements in Europe with a very strong influence in education in Catalonia in the last 15 years and with control of public services ( even today there has been criticism of limited action by Catalan Police ) . From a Scottish independence point of view think SNP and rest of independence movement would do well to distance themselves from Catalonia .

  12. #161
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Right enough, it’s hard to vote with a split skull in a sacked polling station.

    J
    Apparently 25% of the polling stations ended up out of action.

  13. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Far too early to say what impact today`s events will have on Catalonia and rest of Europe . Propaganda war at least outside Spain seems to have been won by independence supporters with politicians very careful to seem reasonable with foreign press but comments here about return of Franco etc are just ridiculous and in no way reflect modern Spain whatever lazy British journalists like to say . I don`t know enough about Catalonia to know if they have a good cause for independence but a common opinion in Spain including Catalonia is that the independence movement has been much more sophisticated than other independence movements in Europe with a very strong influence in education in Catalonia in the last 15 years and with control of public services ( even today there has been criticism of limited action by Catalan Police ) . From a Scottish independence point of view think SNP and rest of independence movement would do well to distance themselves from Catalonia .
    Watxhing from afar, it definitely seems like that there is an authoritarianism to the Spanish reaction that would happen in few, if any other western european countries. Its hard not to look into the recent past and see a common thread.

  14. #163
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    Really is hard to understand why the Spanish government has went in so heavy handed, if they had let it go ahead and then ignored it declaring it unconstitutional it would've been forgotten about by next week, now all hell is going to break loose.

  15. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Watxhing from afar, it definitely seems like that there is an authoritarianism to the Spanish reaction that would happen in few, if any other western european countries. Its hard not to look into the recent past and see a common thread.
    I understand that from afar you would think that but still think references to Franco and 1930s are completely unjustified . Independence movement leaders look happy tonight on TV and have managed to split Catalan society and make people forget corruption cases . Maybe a properly-organised referendum might be the best solution now but I can`t see it happening for several years as it would take ages to change the constitution and at some point Catalans who are opposed to independence are going to start to make themselves heard . That leaves open possibility of declaration of independence after today`s farce which could happen but would surely have no validity - don`t think Spain recognises Kosovo as an independent country yet so doubt she`d be quick to recognise Catalonia after a highly doubtful referendum today .

  16. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by IGRIGI View Post
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    Really is hard to understand why the Spanish government has went in so heavy handed, if they had let it go ahead and then ignored it declaring it unconstitutional it would've been forgotten about by next week, now all hell is going to break loose.
    I think governmemt in Madrid assumed things wouldn`t go so far and by the time they realised vote could really happen had to decide quickly whether to do nothing and allow another vote ( there was something similar in parts of Catalonia a couple of years ago ) which would involve vast sums of public expenditure again or to take firmer action . Worth remembering too that there are images of police being attacked as well and idea that many Catalans including journalists don`t feel free to express anti independence beliefs is being expressed by many . Hopefully things will not get out of control though unfortunately some politicians are probably very happy with today`s events or how they are being reported anyway .

  17. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I understand that from afar you would think that but still think references to Franco and 1930s are completely unjustified . Independence movement leaders look happy tonight on TV and have managed to split Catalan society and make people forget corruption cases . Maybe a properly-organised referendum might be the best solution now but I can`t see it happening for several years as it would take ages to change the constitution and at some point Catalans who are opposed to independence are going to start to make themselves heard . That leaves open possibility of declaration of independence after today`s farce which could happen but would surely have no validity - don`t think Spain recognises Kosovo as an independent country yet so doubt she`d be quick to recognise Catalonia after a highly doubtful referendum today .
    Im not arguing as such, you will no more than me amd be far closer and also see the orher side, which im sure will have a valid case too. I suppose i am just very surprised and shocked to see a country i was in not two weeks ago act in a mannsr more in keeping with turkey than a western country.

    I dont doubt youre right, but im sure catalan separatists will be rejoicing at the spanish govts reaction. It just seems so unnecessary to me. Petrol on the flames.

    There are so many better ways they could have dealth with it. Can you imahine how you would feel if met police officers had marched up to scotland and closed down an advisory referendum jere with scenes of violence amd confrontation?

  18. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im not arguing as such, you will no more than me amd be far closer and also see the orher side, which im sure will have a valid case too. I suppose i am just very surprised and shocked to see a country i was in not two weeks ago act in a mannsr more in keeping with turkey than a western country.

    I dont doubt youre right, but im sure catalan separatists will be rejoicing at the spanish govts reaction. It just seems so unnecessary to me. Petrol on the flames.

    There are so many better ways they could have dealth with it. Can you imahine how you would feel if met police officers had marched up to scotland and closed down an advisory referendum jere with scenes of violence amd confrontation?
    I`m not taking sides on independence question though I`ve heard and read enough to suspect that a noisy minority has managed to get control of parts of press and public institutions and have a huge influence on educational system . Catalans are generally unpopular in the rest of Spain , seen as moneygrabbers who have enjoyed wealth often created by efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain . Catalonia`s prosperous companies rely on the Spanish market and Spaniards will not be slow to boycott Catalan products if necessary ( many already do - simple example , some would prefer to buy expensive champagne than cheap cava at New Year ) . Today`s events won`t help Spain`s international reputation but suspect Catalans of all political colours will be the biggest losers . Hopefully in Scotland the nationalist movement can continue to be a civilised and respectful one .

  19. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I understand that from afar you would think that but still think references to Franco and 1930s are completely unjustified . Independence movement leaders look happy tonight on TV and have managed to split Catalan society and make people forget corruption cases . Maybe a properly-organised referendum might be the best solution now but I can`t see it happening for several years as it would take ages to change the constitution and at some point Catalans who are opposed to independence are going to start to make themselves heard . That leaves open possibility of declaration of independence after today`s farce which could happen but would surely have no validity - don`t think Spain recognises Kosovo as an independent country yet so doubt she`d be quick to recognise Catalonia after a highly doubtful referendum today .
    You have obviously missed the reality of what has been happening. People have been brutalised for expressing their views. Split Catalan society....... I think the Spanish state has done more damage than anyone seeking independence. Democracy is at stake in Spain and that concerns any right mindd person. Sickened to the core by recent events and deeply worri d for my Catalan friends and family.

    Many older Catalans lived under the Franco regime and believe me, today brings back memories. Forget the 1930's, the state were terrorising people in the 1970's.

  20. #169
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Use your eyes people and make up your own mind. The people of Catalonia want freedom to express their views. The violence perpetrated by the Spanish state is shocking. Heavilly armed police smashing civilians who are protecting their democratic right. These are ordinary people, not rioting anarchists. This is heartbreaking to see unfold.

    Democracy is very important to us. Our government allowed a referendum here, we voted no. Imagine if the state had done this in Scotland? No excuse for the terrible deeds of today.

  21. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfuddyhibby View Post
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    Use your eyes people and make up your own mind. The people of Catalonia want freedom to express their views. The violence perpetrated by the Spanish state is shocking. Heavilly armed police smashing civilians who are protecting their democratic right. These are ordinary people, not rioting anarchists. This is heartbreaking to see unfold.

    Democracy is very important to us. Our government allowed a referendum here, we voted no. Imagine if the state had done this in Scotland? No excuse for the terrible deeds of today.
    Different times however, food for thought...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square

  22. #171
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I`m not taking sides on independence question though I`ve heard and read enough to suspect that a noisy minority has managed to get control of parts of press and public institutions and have a huge influence on educational system . Catalans are generally unpopular in the rest of Spain , seen as moneygrabbers who have enjoyed wealth often created by efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain . Catalonia`s prosperous companies rely on the Spanish market and Spaniards will not be slow to boycott Catalan products if necessary ( many already do - simple example , some would prefer to buy expensive champagne than cheap cava at New Year ) . Today`s events won`t help Spain`s international reputation but suspect Catalans of all political colours will be the biggest losers . Hopefully in Scotland the nationalist movement can continue to be a civilised and respectful one .
    Interesting to get your own personal viewpoint on the background on what has lead this horrible situation.
    More food for thought.

  23. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I`m not taking sides on independence question though I`ve heard and read enough to suspect that a noisy minority has managed to get control of parts of press and public institutions and have a huge influence on educational system . Catalans are generally unpopular in the rest of Spain , seen as moneygrabbers who have enjoyed wealth often created by efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain . Catalonia`s prosperous companies rely on the Spanish market and Spaniards will not be slow to boycott Catalan products if necessary ( many already do - simple example , some would prefer to buy expensive champagne than cheap cava at New Year ) . Today`s events won`t help Spain`s international reputation but suspect Catalans of all political colours will be the biggest losers . Hopefully in Scotland the nationalist movement can continue to be a civilised and respectful one .

    And I am a Hearts supporter.

  24. #173

  25. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    You don't need a right of secession in your constitution - though I guess it would help. We had neither a constitution nor a right of secession and we've still managed three referendums. What you do need is politicians with some common sense. I'd suggest neither Catalonia nor Spain has these at the minute.
    The Spanish constitution says Spain is “indissoluble”. Even Rajoy’s central government could not call a “legal” (as the PP defines it) referendum in Catalonia without first changing the constitution.

  26. #175
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Interesting to get your own personal viewpoint on the background on what has lead this horrible situation.
    More food for thought.
    Except that is full of untruths.

    The efforts of immigrants from poorer regions of Spain..... The reality is that in the 1950's Franco encouraged people from Andalucia and other parts of the south of Spain to move to Catalonia. There is a huge population of Catalan people whose parents or grandparents did this. The idea was to dilute Catalan influence and in effect it was a plantation of people friendly to the regime. They have prospered by benefitting from the success of the economy, they have hardly been treated like slaves.

    The Francoist state banned the Catalan language. I have friends who have had to legally change their name from a Spanish one to their Catalan one, going through a legal process to do this.

    There were tens of thousands of people marching in other regions of Spain in support of Democracy. Check of pictures of this from the Basque country.

    Finally, the nationalist movement in Catalonia is a civilised and democratic one. They are in power in the Generalitat and are no more extreme than the SNP. To suggest otherwise is to collude with the anti- democratic forces at work in Spain.

    I have lived in Catalonia, two of my children are Catalans and my ex and her family are ordinary people, not overtly political. Yesterday my ex was out at her local polling station, alongside half of her town, showing solidarity and defending the right to freedom of thought. To think that these fascists *******s were attacking people like her with batons sickens me to the core.

    Think for yourself people. The propaganda coming from Madrid is disgusting. There are still people who were beneficiaries of the Francoist state and continue to have power and influence. The army and Guardia are still instruments of repression and the Madrid elite have fascism on their bloodied hands.

  27. #176
    ... and changing the constitution in Spain requires a 2/3 majority in both chambers of parliament and a Spain wide referendum. A “legal” referendum in Catalonia is to all intents and purposes impossible. Hence why the PP has adopted that as their battle cry.

  28. #177
    Preliminary result:

    Yes - 2,020,144 90%
    No - 176,566 8%
    Spoiled etc 2%

    Approximately 770,000 ballots were stolen by the Guardia Civil.
    Total turnout approximately 58%.

  29. #178
    If the 770,000 were roughly in the same proportion as the counted ballots, then an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence.

  30. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    If the 770,000 were roughly in the same proportion as the counted ballots, then an absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence.

    Only 43% of the Catalonian electorate voted (2,26 million) of that percentage 90% voted for the motion - an "illegal" referendum was held which the majority of the electorate duly ignored - so I'm not sure how you can claim an "absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence" - This is surely not the case on a valid democratic basis ?
    .... Die spinnen, die Briten ....

  31. #180
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Only 43% of the Catalonian electorate voted (2,26 million) of that percentage 90% voted for the motion - an "illegal" referendum was held which the majority of the electorate duly ignored - so I'm not sure how you can claim an "absolute majority of the Catalan electorate voted for independence" - This is surely not the case on a valid democratic basis ?

    Approx. 25% of the polling stations were effectively closed down by tha state police, so you can't really say it was ignored by the majority.

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